complex airplane endorsement

Because, the insurance company still gets the last word of who gets to fly the airplane and who doesn’t. If the renter pilot doesn’t meet their requirements and he/she has an accident, they won’t pay any claims made by the flight school.
Actually, people blame the insurance companies all the time, but it's usually not the directly the case. In years of working with aircraft leasing and flying clubs, I never had an insurance company tell me how many hours of experience a renter had to have. The club always developed its own rules as to experience level and the insurance company blessed the whole package for us (including all the disparate planes in the fleet together). The rates once set were almost always directly scaled by hull value.

Of course, they predicate the policy on the pilots following the rules the club has set down, so yes in fact, the insurance now requires it only because the club proposed it. However, when we could get it, we also had a breach of warranty rider that covered us in case the renter (through no fault of club management) decided to break the club rules.
 
Best advice for the constant speed prop is actually look at the performance charts to determine what power setting you are going to use. Like mentioned you will probably find 23-23, 24-24, or 25-25 will be your normal go to cruise and climb settings. But you can use any setting listed in the POH.

Oversquare rule is a good rule of thumb if you haven’t bothered to look at the performance charts.

Most of the complex endorsement should be just learning how to configure the airplane and remembering to lower the gear in unusual situations, or avoiding unusual situations. I like airport hopping to change between takeoff, cruise, and approach setting as much as possible during the training. I must be especially good at distracting pilots during complex training, there aren’t many pilotS I have done endorsements for that would not have landed gear up at least once during the training had I not intervened. Emergency (power failure) proceedures usually get them. On the other hand I only know of one pilot I have trained that has actually done a gear up and that is the one I strongly recommended adding or changing the gear warning because the existing one was nearly useless. He didn’t change it and did land gear up a couple year after I signed him off.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Oversquare rule is a good rule of thumb if you haven’t bothered to look at the performance charts.
No, it's a foolhardy failure to take the time to understand your aircraft's operating procedures. In fact, in some regimes of flight for some engines (let's say takeoff in my IO-550-powered Navion), you don't want to NOT run oversquare. You leave the throttle full in and reduce to climb power solely by reducing RPMs. If I'm down low, that will put me a couple of inches oversquare for the initial climb.

The inane thing in addition to "oversquare" is the FAA's fixating over which order to adjust the power controls. Crikes. It's not going to make a difference for the second or two it takes you to set the new power setting which one you do first.
 
People make that prop so much more complicated than necessary.
Agreed. Like it said, the biggest issue with the complex is the aircraft is moving much faster and you nee dot work to stay ahead of it. Not likely to be a big issue in a Skyhawk of any stripe, though.
 
Agreed. Like it said, the biggest issue with the complex is the aircraft is moving much faster and you nee dot work to stay ahead of it. Not likely to be a big issue in a Skyhawk of any stripe, though.

I cheated and got the first 15 hours or so of "complex" operation in a 172 Hawk XP- 200hp 130 Kt Skyhawk with a CS Prop - Other than crap radios and nav a really nice flying plane. it made transition to the 182 and 182RG pretty easy.
 
Get the POH and read up on systems. Some are ready in 5 hours and some are ready in 10 hours. Your flight school may have different requirements for letting you rent.
 
Agreed. Like it said, the biggest issue with the complex is the aircraft is moving much faster and you nee dot work to stay ahead of it. Not likely to be a big issue in a Skyhawk of any stripe, though.
I've seen people have initial difficulty even with 172RG after flying a 172.

To me, complex isn't solely about the gear or the prop or even the extra speed (which you can easily get without folding the legs). It's about something different than what you are used to and managing it via new checklists/flows/SOPs .
 
When I got my complex I had to have 10 hours of dual (141 school in 1991). That was way too much in my case. After about 5 hours we were looking for things to do. The biggest thing I got from it was knowing how the landing gear system/lights/ safety drop worked in our Arrow. Not hard, you just have to go over it until it makes sense. The next biggest issue is landing, speed under 150 - gear down, three in the green, speed under 120 - 1 notch of flaps, 3 in the green, turn base, second notch of flaps, 3 in the green, turn final, third notch of flaps, 3 in the green, 90 over the fence, 3 in the green. I hope you see the pattern, 3 in the green is important.

Constant speed prop is super easy when you see what it does and how it acts. For the Arrow it's full manifold pressure and prop for take off, manifold pressure back to 25" then prop back to 2500 RPM for climb. Then manifold pressure back to 24" and prop back to 2400 RPM for cruise. Unless you're doing maneuvers, leave the prop alone until you land, then it's full prop after you throttle back and start slowing down. I was always taught to keep the mp lower than RPM's.
 
About 20 years ago we had some Narcs come in in a Piper Arrow which had that automatic gear system. I don't recall all the details, but on final they discovered they forgot to lower the gear, so they did a go around and turned to left downwind to sort out the gear. Except now they were very slow so the automatic thing lowered the gear which took away all the climb and they bellied in 1/4 mile NE of airport. They were not hurt, but were very nervous and evasive. The cops kept folks away from the plane as it was recovered, but several linemen got a look inside and noted the empty beer bottles on the floor.
 
I've not heard that story, and suspect it is fiction. When the NTSB wrote up their analysis of the auto-extend, they mention two accidents, none of which sound like the above. I was unable to find any in the 25 PA28R accidents in the database iether. I did find two crashes caused by the improper REMOVAL of the autoextend feature.
There were a small number of crashes where the autoextend extended or failed to retract in a departure climb.
 
Got my complex endorsement (61.31e) today! :D
This was after 4 hours of training; must say wasn't as easy as I thought. :oops:
 
Got my complex endorsement (61.31e) today! :D
This was after 4 hours of training; must say wasn't as easy as I thought. :oops:

Funny. I did mine yesterday too. It wasn't a big leap as I have perhaps 50 hours between the Hawk XP and the 182 so the constant speed prop is familiar so it was really just the gear in the 182RG. Also got in a couple approaches as well so that was nice in a 2.1.

Next for me is the RV-12 checkout so between the two clubs I belong to I have 2 172's, a 182, 182 RG and Archer and the RV-12. Basically no excuse not to go fly. :D
 
Funny. I did mine yesterday too. It wasn't a big leap as I have perhaps 50 hours between the Hawk XP and the 182 so the constant speed prop is familiar so it was really just the gear in the 182RG. Also got in a couple approaches as well so that was nice in a 2.1.

Next for me is the RV-12 checkout so between the two clubs I belong to I have 2 172's, a 182, 182 RG and Archer and the RV-12. Basically no excuse not to go fly. :D

Totally got my complex endorsement yesterday, too. I had sufficient time in a DA40 to just review the function of the prop and then review the landing gear systems. Cycled the gear in the air several times, shot an approach so he could show me the steps he likes during one, then some trips around the pattern. Wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be and very informative. Will be using it more in the coming months.
 
Never go past abeam the numbers without putting the gear down.

Every letter in GUMPS is reference to making sure the gear is down.

Get the m----f-0---ng gear down you idiot!
Undercarriage.
Make sure that gear is down ya dummy.
Please get that gear down, I don't want to tell you 5 times.
Son of a b---- I said GEAR DOWN!

Yup, that checks. :D
 
GUMPS is very handy.
My CFI actually HAD a gear-down incident; so he drill me about gear by triple checking during downwind, base and final.
I was more concerned I might accidently put manifold was higher then RPM. :D
 
Hey folks,
Trying to get endorsement to fly C172RG cause it's rented out less and am constantly looking to improve(aren't we all?).
How many hours and training does it usually take for endorsement?
Any tips on flying complex planes?
Especially this: RPM must be higher then manifold pressure. Has anyone did the opposite? What happens to the airplane?

I fly a Cutlass II RG also. It is at a flight school but I have a deal direct with the owner for dry rental.

Complex endorsement is like a 5-hour dual deal.
Tips? Put the gear down before landing. Seriously, get a good instructor and be religious about GUMP checks.
RPM > MP dates back to radial engines and is not critical on "modern" engines. Just fly by the POH. Folks like lower RPM and higher MP because it is quieter, puts less hours on the tach and is probably a bit more fuel efficient.
 
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