"Common purpose" and taking your friends up

Bonchie

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
1,505
Display Name

Display name:
Bonchie
Let's say you have your Private. You want to go flying and don't want to go alone. You call your friend up and see if he wants to come flying for a pro rata share. He agrees.

Does this count as "common purpose?"

And let's say the answer is "no, because you might of just been doing it to build flight time so you wouldn't share a common purpose." Ok. How does the FAA know/prove that your motive wasn't simply to go on a joyride with your friend who also wants to go on a joyride?

Also, how does the FAA enforce pro rata payments? Can they do some kind of audit on your expenses? Is it purely honor system along with spot enforcement (i.e. FBO reports you)?
 
How do they know what funds where shared,if you or your friend don't mention it. Most problems arise when pilots are trying to build time cheaply.
 
It's pretty much the honor system, and unless you're doing something sketchy like trying to run a 134.5 charter or commercial ops with a rental aircraft, or advertising in the paper, the FBO isn't going to care.
 
Also, how does the FAA enforce pro rata payments? Can they do some kind of audit on your expenses? Is it purely honor system along with spot enforcement (i.e. FBO reports you)?

They wait until the incident that scares your friend and asks him.
 
I don't think I understand this common purpose.
I have a friend that said "Let's go flying" I said "sounds fun, I will split the fuel cost"

Anything wrong in that scenario?
 
I don't think I understand this common purpose.
I have a friend that said "Let's go flying" I said "sounds fun, I will split the fuel cost"

Anything wrong in that scenario?
Then you both have a common purpose - flying!

I'm no expert on this, but this is how I've always understood the "common purpose" deal (maybe I'm wrong, though):

It comes into play when someone says, "Hey, I need to visit xxx tomorrow, do you mind giving me a ride? I'll toss in half the gas money." Unless you already intended to to visit xxx yourself, I don't think there's a common purpose. If you had approached your buddy first and said, "Hey, I'm heading to visit xxx tomorrow. Do you want to tag along?" and your buddy says, "Yeah, that's great! I was planning to go see xxx tomorrow too! I'll toss in half the gas money." Then you do have a common purpose of visiting xxx.
 
In which reg does the common purpose show up?
 
Also, how does the FAA enforce pro rata payments? Can they do some kind of audit on your expenses?

I do not recall seeing anything in the statute that create and define the FAA that grant it authority to perform such audits. On one hand there exists an explicit authority to perform criminal background checks, and then only for the purposes of certification, but on the other hand I don't see any other such explicit authority.

Is it purely honor system along with spot enforcement (i.e. FBO reports you)?

Somebody has to be motivated to report you, yes. The FAA makes the determination whether the report and evidence is credible enough to begin an investigation.

In general I think a lot of people incorrectly worry about such things when flying with friends and family.
 
Let's say you have your Private. You want to go flying and don't want to go alone. You call your friend up and see if he wants to come flying for a pro rata share. He agrees.

Does this count as "common purpose?"
No. The FAA Chief Counsel has repeatedly stated that "common purpose" means you and your passengers both have reason (not necessarily the same reason, but you each do have a reason) to be going to whatever destination on that particular day. Going for a joy ride isn't going to be acceptable, especially if you propose the idea and your passenger accepts -- that sounds too much like "holding out" an offer of airplane rides for pay.

And let's say the answer is "no, because you might of just been doing it to build flight time so you wouldn't share a common purpose." Ok. How does the FAA know/prove that your motive wasn't simply to go on a joyride with your friend who also wants to go on a joyride?
The FAA isn't out there trolling for violations of this rule. The FAA knows about such violations because someone complained to them about it, and in a situation such as you describe, that someone is usually the passenger involved. In that case, the passenger's testimony will be quite enough to convince the judge hearing the case that it is more likely than not that you did what the passenger says you did. If you do this often enough and get a local reputation of giving "joyrides for pay", one of the local FBO's may get wind of it and make the complaint since that would sound like you're horning in on their sightseeing ride business. Again, if the FAA gets that complaint and investigates, somebody is going to say, "Oh, yeah, he took me up flying and asked me to pay for the ride."

Also, how does the FAA enforce pro rata payments? Can they do some kind of audit on your expenses? Is it purely honor system along with spot enforcement (i.e. FBO reports you)?
The FAA can indeed subpoena records as needed, but even without that, they would have no trouble presenting sufficient evidence of the approximate direct cost of the flight to convince the judge hearing the case that $100 each wasn't an appropriate pro rata share for three passengers getting 1-hour ride in a 172.

All that said, it is generally an honor system, but if you get a reputation for giving paid rides, eventually someone is going to complain. Likewise, if you are seen taking people places that folks know you have no reason to go other than to fly them, again, someone will complain. If the complaint happens, and you really were violating the rules, the FAA is not likely to have much trouble sustaining an enforcement action against you under the relaxed "more likely than not" standard of proof in these cases (as opposed to the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard in criminal actions).

So if you're going to do this, don't post it on the internet, don't create any records of the flight, don't take people you can't trust to keep their mouths shut about it, and don't do anything on the flight to attract the FAA's attention (like a crash or flight violation).
 
I don't think I understand this common purpose.
I have a friend that said "Let's go flying" I said "sounds fun, I will split the fuel cost"

Anything wrong in that scenario?
Yes, there is something wrong with that scenario. There is no "common purpose" on a joyride. It can exist only when you are using the airplane as a means of transportation to get somewhere each of you has your own reason to be going on that day.

BTW, the FAA has repeatedly made clear that when money is changing hands, they interpret the rules in the strictest manner. They are quite set about enforcing the "levels of safety" concept, with significantly higher standards for any flight in which someone is paying for the ride. They may not be out looking for such violations, but if one falls on their doorstep, they will not ignore it.
 
Before I get a bad rap, I want to make clear my only intention is to have fun with my friends. Not fly random people on sight seeing tours.

In that case, I'd assume I'd be safe as long as said friend agrees that he does indeed "want to" go grab lunch 60nm away, even if it was my idea originally?

I realize I'm getting into the grey area that no one cares about or worries about, but it's interesting.
 
Ugg, not again... No, it's not legal, so go ahead and have fun with your buddy and don't tell the FAA.
 
That term doesn't appear in any FAR, but the concept is well established in legal interpretations and case law regarding 14 CFR 61.113 and sharing of expenses.

OK, thanks. I was looking for that when prepping for my PPL oral exam and never found it. To be clear, this only counts when receiving any money, correct? For example, there's nothing wrong with a friend asking to go on a tour of the skies and you take him up and receive nothing in return, correct?
 
Then you both have a common purpose - flying!

I'm no expert on this, but this is how I've always understood the "common purpose" deal (maybe I'm wrong, though):

It comes into play when someone says, "Hey, I need to visit xxx tomorrow, do you mind giving me a ride? I'll toss in half the gas money." Unless you already intended to to visit xxx yourself, I don't think there's a common purpose. If you had approached your buddy first and said, "Hey, I'm heading to visit xxx tomorrow. Do you want to tag along?" and your buddy says, "Yeah, that's great! I was planning to go see xxx tomorrow too! I'll toss in half the gas money." Then you do have a common purpose of visiting xxx.
What if your purpose is to fly as much as you can to many different places and you are just looking for reasons?
 
OK, thanks. I was looking for that when prepping for my PPL oral exam and never found it. To be clear, this only counts when receiving any money, correct? For example, there's nothing wrong with a friend asking to go on a tour of the skies and you take him up and receive nothing in return, correct?

I think even flying for "goodwill" is mentioned so it's not just about money.

It's a little excessive IMO, although I understand what they are trying to avoid.
 
Before I get a bad rap, I want to make clear my only intention is to have fun with my friends. Not fly random people on sight seeing tours.



In that case, I'd assume I'd be safe as long as said friend agrees that he does indeed "want to" go grab lunch 60nm away, even if it was my idea originally?



I realize I'm getting into the grey area that no one cares about or worries about, but it's interesting.


From a practical "real world" perspective, you're good.
 
I think even flying for "goodwill" is mentioned so it's not just about money.

It's a little excessive IMO, although I understand what they are trying to avoid.

Interesting. I've only heard it applied to when compensation is given. So I guess no one's allowed to go up with a friend for sight-seeing? :D
 
Interesting. I've only heard it applied to when compensation is given. So I guess no one's allowed to go up with a friend for sight-seeing? :D

Only if that friend shows no thanks and has no change of feelings toward you for the ride :lol:
 
Before I get a bad rap, I want to make clear my only intention is to have fun with my friends. Not fly random people on sight seeing tours.

In that case, I'd assume I'd be safe as long as said friend agrees that he does indeed "want to" go grab lunch 60nm away, even if it was my idea originally?
You'd be safe if you take your friend for a ride, but say nothing at all about money. If he happens to buy your lunch, then say, "Thanks, pal!" and leave it at that.

I realize I'm getting into the grey area that no one cares about or worries about, but it's interesting.
There's nothing "grey" about it - it's just not legal. The only question is whether you'll get caught.
 
OK, thanks. I was looking for that when prepping for my PPL oral exam and never found it. To be clear, this only counts when receiving any money, correct? For example, there's nothing wrong with a friend asking to go on a tour of the skies and you take him up and receive nothing in return, correct?
Pretty much so. The FAA has busted some people in such cases where the two people had a business relationship such that the "free" ride might come with the expectation of future business, but that's not what we're talking about here.
 
What if your purpose is to fly as much as you can to many different places and you are just looking for reasons?
If you don't have a non-flying reason to be going to that specific place, then there cannot be "common purpose".
 
I think even flying for "goodwill" is mentioned so it's not just about money.
As I said above, "goodwill" only comes up if there's a business relationship between the provider of the "free" ride and the passenger. If it's just your buddy or your cousin, it's not an issue
 
Where are you getting such a strict definition of common purpose?

Where does it say common purpose must be arrived at individually or that the common purpose can't be shared? I.E. both want to go eat dinner in a certain city.
 
Yes, there is something wrong with that scenario. There is no "common purpose" on a joyride. It can exist only when you are using the airplane as a means of transportation to get somewhere each of you has your own reason to be going on that day.

Someone on TV is advertising to me that fun is a destination.:yes:
 
As I said above, "goodwill" only comes up if there's a business relationship between the provider of the "free" ride and the passenger. If it's just your buddy or your cousin, it's not an issue

Serious question and not necessarily directed at Ron:

Male pilot takes a female passenger for a joyride with the expectation that he will later get sex.

Is it FAA/ Chief Counsel legal? Also, is it prostitution?
 
Well that escalated quickly :)
 
Serious question and not necessarily directed at Ron:

Male pilot takes a female passenger for a joyride with the expectation that he will later get sex.

Is it FAA/ Chief Counsel legal? Also, is it prostitution?


If she wants sex it is fine because they have a common purpose. :dunno:
 
Serious question and not necessarily directed at Ron:

Male pilot takes a female passenger for a joyride with the expectation that he will later get sex.

Is it FAA/ Chief Counsel legal? Also, is it prostitution?

If the sex happened during flight, that would be common purpose. If it happened later as compensation, that would be illegal.
 
Don_Quixote_2_zpscf5ea12e.jpg
 
If the sex happened during flight, that would be common purpose. If it happened later as compensation, that would be illegal.

What if they are flying to have sex with someone else together?

These are the questions we need answers to.
 
as a means of transportation to get somewhere each of you has your own reason to be going on that day.

Nonsense. What the FAA cares is that you not 'split costs' to fly your friend to wedding or a business meeting, in which case you are doing a 134.5.

If you and your friend want to fly to a $100 hamburger, he can pitch for the gas no problem. You both have the 'common purpose' of eating lunch at the same place.
 
This all seems more than a little blurry to me.

Catalina Island is a popular tourist destination where people from So Cal like to visit on the weekends. I regularly take my boat over there with friends. They also have an airport. If a couple friends and I decided to fly over for the day because it's faster than the 5 hour sail, would we not have a common purpose? Seems like some of you are splitting hairs on what the common purpose is. If we both want to go some place, but I'm logging hours does that suddenly make it no longer a common purpose, even though we're both going to the same destination to be tourists together?

Seems that if this were the case there wouldn't be a rule allowing a pro-rata share at all, and it would simply be written as "no compensation at all, period"
 
Agreed.

This is the most nit picky portion of flying.
I am going to get my commercial and put a meter in the plane.
 
Yes, there is something wrong with that scenario. There is no "common purpose" on a joyride. It can exist only when you are using the airplane as a means of transportation to get somewhere each of you has your own reason to be going on that day.
Do you have a case? I see no reason in the FARs why a common purpose has to involve getting somewhere, but that doesn't mean I'd be shocked to see such an interpretation some where.
 
Agreed.

This is the most nit picky portion of flying.
I am going to get my commercial and put a meter in the plane.

Add an Air Carrier or Operating certificate and you'll be OK. Except for all the extra things you also have to do to operate within the requirements of those certificates....
 
Back
Top