Commercial Requirement Decyphering

[Joshuajayg]

So, I've got 300+ hours of flight time. Private, instrument, high performance, and just got my complex with my instructor.

We were having a discussion about my training requirements for taking my check ride. The regs read:

61.129:
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least--

[(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;]

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

[(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

So, with my instrument rating, I understand from many sources that I am not required to have 10 hours of instrument training. But my instructor is arguing that I still need twenty hours of COMMERCIAL TRAINING. I am reading that I only need ten now. And we are nearly to ten hours of commercial training (in a complex airplane). We have the night cross country to finish and I believe that will finish the required training.

He also is claiming that paragraph 4 needs to be done under COMMERCIAL TRAINING as well. I have completed those requirements under my time flying as a private pilot.

I can't find anyone to agree with him. My examiner doesn't agree, another instructor nearby doesn't agree. I'm just looking for more instructor advice.

Joshua

 

[Sam D]

You've quoted (3) and (4). To clarify, (3) only has to do with training. (4) you can do all on your own. My understanding is that the only reason there is a reference to a CFI in this section is because some pilot mills will not allow solo flight in their multi-engine aircraft.

As it relates to (3), I believe nothing done in prep for the private would count (since that training was for the private). However, if you subsequently got a complex endorsement, all that time would qualify (but to pick a bit, the CFI who provided the training would need to be willing to confirm that. See this FAA letter for more info).

Regarding instrument training time, read this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49372

 

[Joshuajayg]

As it relates to (3), I believe nothing done in prep for the private would count (since that training was for the private). However, if you subsequently got a complex endorsement, all that time would qualify (but to pick a bit, the CFI who provided the training would need to be willing to confirm that).

Regarding instrument training time, read this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49372

I already have my instrument rating. I completed it after I got my private. I guess the end question is simply, "Am I required to have ten hours of training for commercial if I already have my instrument rating?" Simply pertaining to paragraph 3.

Joshua

 

[RussR]

He also is claiming that paragraph 4 needs to be done under COMMERCIAL TRAINING as well. I have completed those requirements under my time flying as a private pilot.

That is completely ridiculous. Let me ask you this - when did your "Commercial Training" start? There is no official "I'm starting working on my commercial training today" moment. It's not like a college course where you can't start taking the next course until you're done with the previous course.

In effect, your "commercial training" starts the day you get your Private Pilot certificate. You don't "sign up" with an instructor in order for it to begin. Especially regarding the solo flight requirements. If you get your temporary Private certificate and depart that afternoon for the long solo commercial cross country, that counts.

Part 141 is different, but you're not asking about that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I already have my instrument rating. I completed it after I got my private. I guess the end question is simply, "Am I required to have ten hours of training for commercial if I already have my instrument rating?" Simply pertaining to paragraph 3.

Joshua

The FAA Chief Counsel answered this one in two opinions (that say the same thing). They are the 2010 Theriault interpretation and the 2010 Hartzell interpretation.

What it comes down to is that the FAA sees a difference in the requirements for the private and commercial certificate, even regarding tasks that have the same name. That's reflected and the use of the term "on the areas of operation." So, for example, a 2 hour night dual cross country done as a student pilot will not count for the 61.129 requirement.

But, in the case of instrument training, the FAA realizes the reality that the instrument training for the rating under 61.65 is more detailed, intensive and extensive than that for the commercial. So there's leeway. Although the leeway can theoretically be evidenced in some other way, practically speaking it pretty much requires that the instructor giving the instrument training for the instrument rating indicate in some way that it also meets the requirements of 61.129.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is completely ridiculous. Let me ask you this - when did your "Commercial Training" start? There is no official "I'm starting working on my commercial training today" moment. It's not like a college course where you can't start taking the next course until you're done with the previous course.

In effect, your "commercial training" starts the day you get your Private Pilot certificate.

That's pretty much it.

While training for the private (and "lower") certificate does not count, "Once a pilot has obtained a private pilot certificate, he or she may begin to log training time towards a commercial pilot certificate." [2015 Asp interpretation]. At that point it's all about whether the tasks endorsed by the instructor reflect the areas of operation stated in the commercial requirements.

 

[farmerbrake]

[QUOTE/]

61.129:
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least--

[(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--]

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
[/QUOTE]

My question is the two parts listed above. Almost through my instrument training (all being done in an arrow so I think I'm good for the whole complex thing...)
So for the 3 iii I flew solo to RDU and back during the day. total flight round trip time was north of 5 hours. Does that work or not since it wasn't 'training' which implies an instructor (although that's when I did my first class c).

4 ii can I count all the times that I went up and got my night currency back for carrying passengers?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[Sam D]

Solo doesn't work for section 3. It needs to be with an instructor. That's the "training" part.

You're stuff for 4 should apply if it meets the requirements listed.

 

[StinkBug]

It sounds like you've already talked to the DPE, and the DPE agrees with you. Since he's the one signing your ticket maybe you should have him let your instructor know what he feels is actually required. If the DPE is willing to look at your logbook and say that you've filled the requirements then your CFI shouldn't be holding you hostage, assuming you're actually prepared for the checkride.

I just looked at my logbook and between my Instrument Checkride and my Commercial I logged 13.8 hours of instruction, and 3 of it was refresher because I decided to fly across the country and back rather than take the checkride when it was originally scheduled. My DPE looked at everything in my logbook and determined that all the previous training fulfilled the requirements. My CFI is also good about logging all the specific maneuvers and topics of training too though. I've seen guys get nailed on their logbook simply saying "commercial training" in the notes.

 

[ahkahn]

Funny. I'm in a very similar boat, except mine has to do with the daytime dual xc. I am insisting on using my instrument rating XC because it clearly meets the requirements. My instructor is not sure and the DPE won't give a straight answer. I'll ask the DPE to show me in the regs where it does not qualify.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Funny. I'm in a very similar boat, except mine has to do with the daytime dual xc. I am insisting on using my instrument rating XC because it clearly meets the requirements. My instructor is not sure and the DPE won't give a straight answer. I'll ask the DPE to show me in the regs where it does not qualify.

The FAA hasn't not been at its best clarity on when "double dipping" is permitted and when "double dipping" is not, except on a case-by-case basis.

On the one hand, I can see the Chief Counsel or Flight Standards saying you can't because it doesn't clearly meet the requirements.

The common thread in the FAA's "no double dip" policy, typified by such things as the 2011 Murphy interpretaton and the "instrument training one referred to earlier is based on the "in the areas of operation" language. Even if it sounds the same and uses the same wording, there is a qualitative difference. IOW, the cross country tasks for the commercial certificate involves a different set of standards than the same tasks for a lower rating.

OTOH, the 2010 Hartzell opinion suggests it's possible to word the endorsement of the task in such a way that it can satisfy both. That kind of makes sense since there are plenty programs out there that combine commercial and instrument training.

 

[ahkahn]

The FAA hasn't not been at its best clarity on when "double dipping" is permitted and when "double dipping" is not, except on a case-by-case basis.

On the one hand, I can see the Chief Counsel or Flight Standards saying you can't because it doesn't clearly meet the requirements.

The common thread in the FAA's "no double dip" policy, typified by such things as the 2011 Murphy interpretaton and the "instrument training one referred to earlier is based on the "in the areas of operation" language. Even if it sounds the same and uses the same wording, there is a qualitative difference. IOW, the cross country tasks for the commercial certificate involves a different set of standards than the same tasks for a lower rating.

OTOH, the 2010 Hartzell opinion suggests it's possible to word the endorsement of the task in such a way that it can satisfy both. That kind of makes sense since there are plenty programs out there that combine commercial and instrument training.

Yeah, my logbook doesn't even say anything in the remarks section for the instrument XC flight... which is why my instructor is inclined to push it through. Plus I have got several hundred hours of XC time outside of training, so he is kind of rolling his eyes at the dual requirement anyway because it's pointless in my case. I did need the night dual XC... even though I probably have over 100 hours of night XC flying... so we made it a $100 hamburger run... but he doesn't want to waste my $ on pointless dual, so I have to hand that to him. Good instructor.

Thanks for the input, Mark!

 

[MAKG1]

Yeah, my logbook doesn't even say anything in the remarks section for the instrument XC flight... which is why my instructor is inclined to push it through. Plus I have got several hundred hours of XC time outside of training, so he is kind of rolling his eyes at the dual requirement anyway because it's pointless in my case. I did need the night dual XC... even though I probably have over 100 hours of night XC flying... so we made it a $100 hamburger run... but he doesn't want to waste my $ on pointless dual, so I have to hand that to him. Good instructor.

Thanks for the input, Mark!

Your logbook should at least name the three approaches you did.

I've had a similar question, stemming from MyFlightBook calling the instrument cross country equivalent to the day commercial cross country. I wouldn't have expected them to count for both.

Though, to be honest, I really don't understand the point of the "dual or solo" cross countries for the commercial rating. As a private pilot, I know how to plan a cross country. As an instrument pilot, I know how to plan one for weather. And the long solo cross country establishes I can fly for the longer time and distance.

 

[ahkahn]

Your logbook should at least name the three approaches you did.

Yeah, that's all it says.

 

[James331]

If your DPE and another instructor agree with you, use that instructor and DPE, --> done.

Am I missing something

 

[midlifeflyer]

Though, to be honest, I really don't understand the point of the "dual or solo" cross countries for the commercial rating.

If I recall correctly, the reason is related to ICAO requirements.

The dual is supposed to be a training flight with CFIs doing, you know, training rather than sitting there taking a nap . Whether that goal gets accomplished at all is an excellent question.

The solo cross country is pretty much a distance thing, although I think the solo requirement is to guarantee self-reliance (the CFI being there was originally a multi insurance issue that was expanded - he can take now take that nap). Greater chance of the need for some decision-making, sometimes about fuel, sometimes about weather. If you have one that qualifies post private, you've met the requirement.

 

[dell30rb]

You only need 10 hours of training in a complex airplane. It does not need to be commercial specific training. Your instrument rating counts as the 10 hours of instrument training.

4) can be done solo.


I did a 5 hour dual mooney checkout, then 6 months later did the maneuvers and commercial prep in another 5 hours dual in the Mooney for a total of 10hrs dual in a complex airplane. I don't recall doing anything else, my previous experience met all the requirements.


So it sounds like your examiner is right, the regs are somewhat ambiguious, but don't waste time and money doing a bunch of extra dual hours training for the commercial checkride.

 

[EricBe]

Your logbook should at least name the three approaches you did.

I've had a similar question, stemming from MyFlightBook calling the instrument cross country equivalent to the day commercial cross country. I wouldn't have expected them to count for both.

Though, to be honest, I really don't understand the point of the "dual or solo" cross countries for the commercial rating. As a private pilot, I know how to plan a cross country. As an instrument pilot, I know how to plan one for weather. And the long solo cross country establishes I can fly for the longer time and distance.

Yeah, unfortunately MyFlightbook can't peer into the flight to figure out whether it was done to commercial standards, and it doesn't know what level of certification you held at the time of the flight (e.g., were you a student, in which case this can't count towards commercial time per Murphy, or were you a private pilot but not yet training for your commercial, in which case you can't count it, or were you actually doing this with the intent of pursuing your commercial, in which case you can?) So the usual disclaimer ultimately applies ("Only you can decide if you've met the requirements"); I just try to find a qualifying flight.