Commercial Pilot Requirements

nj-pilot

nj-pilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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josh_me
I'm an IR PP SEL, and I'm interested in earning my Commercial license SEL.

I've read and re-read FAR 61.129 (shown below), but after reading, still have some questions - see red text below.

If the answer to all my 'can i leverage' questions is "yes," then it looks like the total practical training requirement is only:
a.3.ii: 10 hours training in a complex airplane
a.3.v: 3 of the 10 hours training within 2 mos of checkride
a.4.i: 300 nm x-ctry, 250nm straight-line (i haven't done one this far before)

Appreciate any help / guidance.

§61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;

:: Can I leverage my IFR training and experience to date to meet this?

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;

(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

:: Can I leverage my previous training / experience for this?

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

:: Can I leverage my previous training / experience for this?

(v) Three hours in a single-engine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

:: What is the definition of solo? If I bring a friend who's not a pilot, does that count as solo? If I have the choice of bringing an instructor vs. solo, why would I choose CFI?

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

:: Can I leverage my previous training / experience for this?
 
Solo is no other humans. I say no pets either. Just you. Its supposed to see if you like flying alone and can handle the fear, lonliness etc. that some never even have. In which case you have handled it. Also the decision making process is different when you are by yourself. And you can't even ask your dog's opinion :)
 
@coloradobluesky - If the regulation says to fly either solo or with CFI, what would be rationale for choosing CFI? Wouldn't everyone (who is not wealthy) choose solo?
 
nj-pilot said:
@coloradobluesky - If the regulation says to fly either solo or with CFI, what would be rationale for choosing CFI? Wouldn't everyone (who is not wealthy) choose solo?
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Learning things. Safely.

Seriously.

You have the IR but haven't flown a flight 250 nm away. That distance will almost always take you into a completely different weather system. Further, even more so.

Doing that the first time with a CFI along to see if your weather smarts really are as smart as you think they are, isn't a bad idea.

It *shoudn't* happen but let's say you paint yourself into a corner with 200/1-2 at the far end and the whole area you flew to went down the tubes. First, do you think the CFI will let that happen, and if so, is it because they know it'll be good training?

Might be kinda nice to have a CFI sitting there to keep a hairy eyeball on your approach to minimums wouldn't it?

If you look really carefully at the requirements as you head up into the Commercial, you see a trend. FAA is trying to get you to fly further away from home. The unwritten part of that is they're trying to get you out in weather that changes enroute, before cutting you loose to fly paying passengers.

FAA knows many of us fly where the weather is nearly always CAVU and others fly in the soup all the time but haven't seen the performance hit of a hot and high takeoff or a mountain pass crossing. They can't mandate a list of stuff they'd like you to have seen, but they can at least say "fly further away, you'll see stuff you've never seen before".

And they leave it up to you whether you would like a CFI on board for stuff that looks iffy to you.

Just enough rope to hang yourself.

But seriously. Go grab an airplane and go somewhere. 250 nm is nothing. Go further. Make it a two day out and back. Totally different weather planning and hoping the weather guessers got it right.

Commercial pilots do that sort of trip almost every time they crank up.

Have a credit card and a plan to sleep on an FBO couch. Heh.
 
Solo means solo means solo. The cross countries are "commercial" training so you have to do them even if you've already done a 100 mile X country
 
nj-pilot said:
@coloradobluesky - If the regulation says to fly either solo or with CFI, what would be rationale for choosing CFI? Wouldn't everyone (who is not wealthy) choose solo?
Click to expand...

If you don't own the plane sometimes you don't have a choice. I know at least one school that won't let anyone fly their planes at night without a CFI regardless of the pilot's current ratings.
 
Looking over these requirements it appears all I would need is 3 hours of training in preparation for the checkride.

So, if the OP had met all the required flight time and previous training (not necessarily done in prep for the commercial license), is it possible that the only remaining requirement is the 3 hours within 2 mos of checkride?

Also, for the cross countries, do multi-day trips from state A to B to C and back to A count as 1 cross country with 3 stops or 3 separate cross countries?
 
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FORANE said:
Looking over these requirements it appears all I would need is 3 hours of training in preparation for the checkride.

So, if the OP had met all the required flight time and previous training (not necessarily done in prep for the commercial license), is it possible that the only remaining requirement is the 3 hours within 2 mos of checkride?

Also, for the cross countries, do multi-day trips from state A to B to C and back to A count as 1 cross country with 3 stops or 3 separate cross countries?
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You would still need to do the 100 mile 2 hour day and night x countries with a CFI since it is for "commercial" training. The bolded part is explained in multiple threads.
 
Wheels said:
If you don't own the plane sometimes you don't have a choice. I know at least one school that won't let anyone fly their planes at night without a CFI regardless of the pilot's current ratings.
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:dunno: That's a strange policy.
 
denverpilot said:
But seriously. Go grab an airplane and go somewhere. 250 nm is nothing. Go further. Make it a two day out and back. Totally different weather planning and hoping the weather guessers got it right.
Click to expand...
A lot of people don't venture out further because of rental restrictions. Would I have loved to take the plane across the country for a week? Of course but I don't own a plane and it's difficult to coordinate with the flight school. Not saying it can't be done but it is certainly one of the barriers.
 
jordane93 said:
You would still need to do the 100 mile 2 hour day and night x countries with a CFI since it is for "commercial" training.
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@Jordan - so we're on the same page, requirement says that these can be done either solo or with CFI - does not require with CFI, correct?
 
nj-pilot said:
@Jordan - so we're on the same page, requirement says that these can be done either solo or with CFI - does not require with CFI, correct?
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The 100 mile, 2 hour day/night x country has to be done with a CFI. The long x country can be done with a CFI or solo.
 
jordane93 said:
The 100 mile, 2 hour day/night x country has to be done with a CFI. The long x country can be done with a CFI or solo.
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Gotcha - you're talking about 3.iii and 3.iv. I thought you were talking about 4.i and 4.ii. Thanks
 
nj-pilot said:
@Jordan - so we're on the same page, requirement says that these can be done either solo or with CFI - does not require with CFI, correct?
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I feel like you may be missing (a)
§61.127 Flight proficiency.
(a) General. A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation of this section that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.
 
jordane93 said:
:dunno: That's a strange policy.
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Yes it is. It was implemented when a commercial student made a hard landing and damaged a plane. Owner said no more night flights by anyone unless one of the CFIs that works for him is in the plane.
 
Actually these days solo (for the purpose of the commercial) either means without humans or with a brain-dead instructor in the right seat.
 
Actually look back at item (3). 20 hrs of training in the items of 61.127.....

That means your day and night VFR XC with an instructor has to be signed off as meeting the requirements of 61.127 . Which means you planned and flew to the training items listed.

Some of your items may clear the can I use it question, a lot of the items will not if they were not originally signed off as meeting 61.127 requirements.
 
jordane93 said:
A lot of people don't venture out further because of rental restrictions. Would I have loved to take the plane across the country for a week? Of course but I don't own a plane and it's difficult to coordinate with the flight school. Not saying it can't be done but it is certainly one of the barriers.
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Depends on the school. Local school here routinely rents aircraft to be gone more than a week.

I've taken a rental to Maine and back, from Las Vegas. And to Alaska and back. For that one I had the owners written approval to take the plane on that trip and the insurance required for flight through Canada.
 
The reason the FAR says, solo or with CFI, is because the aircraft you are using, you may not be covered under the insurance for solo PIC operations. The CFI is there for the insurance.
 
BillTIZ said:
The reason the FAR says, solo or with CFI, is because the aircraft you are using, you may not be covered under the insurance for solo PIC operations. The CFI is there for the insurance.
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Or just because some students are too scared.
 
mkosmo said:
Or just because some students are too scared.
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That's not the intent of the regulation. The reason the solo requirement there is to weed out that situation. While having a dummy in the right seat might give reassurance, Bill's right, the problems stems from the fact it's hard, especially for twin engine aircraft, to find ones that will rent even a commercial student solo.
 
mkosmo said:
Or just because some students are too scared.
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It would be too bad if they are. At the point most pilots are working on their commercial, they are already instrument rated. If they are afraid of a simple cross country at that point, there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

BillTIZ is right. The origin of the rule was insurance issues for solo flight in multi-engine aircraft. It was expanded for the stated reason that the same issues might apply in other aircraft but I suspect it was also a matter of having an even playing field for everyone.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It would be too bad if they are. At the point most pilots are working on their commercial, they are already instrument rated. If they are afraid of a simple cross country at that point, there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

BillTIZ is right. The origin of the rule was insurance issues for solo flight in multi-engine aircraft. It was expanded for the stated reason that the same issues might apply in other aircraft but I suspect it was also a matter of having an even playing field for everyone.
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A lot of suspectin' going on around here :wink2:

Regardless of intent, from talking to some folks around here, that seems to be the use of the rule in many cases... This would be the longest solo x-c for a student to take to that point if they're only doing the minimums and not doing any for fun.
 
mkosmo said:
A lot of suspectin' going on around here :wink2:

Regardless of intent, from talking to some folks around here, that seems to be the use of the rule in many cases... This would be the longest solo x-c for a student to take to that point if they're only doing the minimums and not doing any for fun.
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Only one "suspectin'". The rest of my post about the reasons for the rule is a matter of published public record.

I'll stick by my opinion "if a private pilot with an instrument rating is afraid of a simple cross country flight, there is a problem"
 
BillTIZ said:
Depends on the school. Local school here routinely rents aircraft to be gone more than a week.

I've taken a rental to Maine and back, from Las Vegas. And to Alaska and back. For that one I had the owners written approval to take the plane on that trip and the insurance required for flight through Canada.
Click to expand...
Yep. Definitely depends on the school.
 
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