Commercial license multi?

[stratobee]

I'm thinking of doing the commercial license just to do it. Still gonna stay class 3 medical, but just have it.

However, I do find the FAA rules very confusing. Do an IR ride in a twin and you get SE for free. Do a seaplane rating in a twin and you don't get ASES for free… So, if I do Commercial ride in a twin, do I get it for multi and SE? Or doesn't it matter?

 

[Sam D]

See page 21 of Commercial PTS which spells out what you'd need to demonstrate to get a comm ASEL added to a comm AMEL.

Additional Rating Task Table:​

Airplane Single-Engine Land​

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Addition of an Airplane Single-Engine Land Rating to an existing​

Commercial Pilot Certificate​

Required Tasks are indicated by either the Task letter(s) that apply(s)​

or an indication that all or none of the Tasks must be tested based on​

the notes in each Area of Operation.​

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COMMERCIAL PILOT RATING(S) HELD

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[gismo]

So, if I do Commercial ride in a twin, do I get it for multi and SE?

In a word, no.

Or doesn't it matter?

Assuming you stay with a Class III medical, it would only matter if you wanted to get an instructor certificate for ASEL.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

The instrument rating works a little different than the actual certificates. Now if you did the Instrument rating in a SE and went to add ME privileges to a private or commercial certificate, you would need to demonstrate a single engine approach in the ME or you would be limited to VFR flying and it would say so on your certificate. Which one to get? Since you don't plan on using it, doesn't really matter. I would go with whichever is cheaper and which one you have access to an adequate airplane(gonna need to do some complex airplane procedures for the single engine) for.

 

[James331]

No, the IR is different.

 

[stratobee]

Logic escapes me in these above scenarios.

So the FAA are saying that somehow a single engine approach, to minimums, at night, is OK to do because you demonstrated it in a twin, but that somehow doing commercial maneuvers is so vastly different between a single and a twin? Isn't a chandelle a chandelle? Or that when you get your AMES rating, you're now somehow incapable of landing a single engine seaplane?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Logic escapes me in these above scenarios.

So the FAA are saying that somehow a single engine approach, to minimums, at night, is OK to do because you demonstrated it in a twin, but that somehow doing commercial maneuvers is so vastly different between a single and a twin? Isn't a chandelle a chandelle? Or that when you get your AMES rating, you're now somehow incapable of landing a single engine seaplane?

yup....logic escapes me too.

They should just throw in there Balloon, GyroCopter, and Glider ratings also.....

 

[mcmanigle]

Slightly different question, but why not hijack the thread:

My understanding is that for a single commercial ride, I can do most of the ride in a non-complex single, and then bring along a complex plane for the maneuvers requiring it. My question is, can that complex plane be a multi?

The scenario is that I have easy(ish) access to a 182 and a Geronimo, and want to do commercial single + multi in one day. (I don't have private multi.) But it seems that if the answer to the above is "no", I'm stuck between the options of finding a complex single (to do single commercial first, then add on multi) or doing the full multi commercial de novo hours (to do multi commercial first, then add on single in the 182).

Any other options you guys see?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Logic escapes me in these above scenarios.

So the FAA are saying that somehow a single engine approach, to minimums, at night, is OK to do because you demonstrated it in a twin, but that somehow doing commercial maneuvers is so vastly different between a single and a twin? Isn't a chandelle a chandelle? Or that when you get your AMES rating, you're now somehow incapable of landing a single engine seaplane?

You don't do Chandelle's, Lazy 8's and turns around a point on a ME ride.

The Comm AMEL checkride is probably the easiest checkride you will ever do.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Slightly different question, but why not hijack the thread:

My understanding is that for a single commercial ride, I can do most of the ride in a non-complex single, and then bring along a complex plane for the maneuvers requiring it. My question is, can that complex plane be a multi?

Yes, but the way most folks do that is to go knock out the Comm initial in the twin and then do the ASEL addon in a fixed gear single.

IMO, it is a little easier that way.

 

[Henning]

Yes, but the way most folks do that is to go knock out the Comm initial in the twin and then do the ASEL addon in a fixed gear single.

IMO, it is a little easier that way.

Around here it's about the only way left. There's only one or two retract singles left in the SoFla market.

 

[Henning]

I'm thinking of doing the commercial license just to do it. Still gonna stay class 3 medical, but just have it.

However, I do find the FAA rules very confusing. Do an IR ride in a twin and you get SE for free. Do a seaplane rating in a twin and you don't get ASES for free… So, if I do Commercial ride in a twin, do I get it for multi and SE? Or doesn't it matter?

Since you own the multi, you do the multi ride first. Then if you want you can add the SE in any fixed gear single. The IR is the only ride freebie SE/ME if you do ME first. Add ons are typically simplified rides though.

 

[mcmanigle]

Since you own the multi, you do the multi ride first. Then if you want you can add the SE in any fixed gear single. The IR is the only ride freebie SE/ME if you do ME first. Add ons are typically simplified rides though.

Right, that might be the way to go. (Don't own the multi, just have easy rental.) The problem with that option (as I understand it) is that it requires much more multi time, closer to 25 hours by the time you add it up. I'm starting with zero multi time and no multi private. My understanding is that multi add-on can be done in closer to 10 hours...

So, problem with multi first: requires about 15 extra hours multi, which is at least $3500.

Problem with single first: requires finding, renting, training in, and testing in a rental complex single.

I guess there's no way out of picking one of those options, is there?

 

[Henning]

Right, that might be the way to go. (Don't own the multi, just have easy rental.) The problem with that option (as I understand it) is that it requires much more multi time, closer to 25 hours by the time you add it up. I'm starting with zero multi time and no multi private. My understanding is that multi add-on can be done in closer to 10 hours...

So, problem with multi first: requires about 15 extra hours multi, which is at least $3500.

Problem with single first: requires finding, renting, training in, and testing in a rental complex single.

I guess there's no way out of picking one of those options, is there?

Well, the question boils down to, "Why are you getting the ME rating?" If you are going to use the ME rating then the extra time is irrelevant because you need it all for insurability anyway. If you are just collecting ratings, then yes, it will add some cost to the differential.

No, unfortunately for now, those are the options.

 

[dmspilot]

Do an IR ride in a twin and you get SE for free.

Doing an instrument rating in a multiengine does not give you a single-engine instrument rating for free, because there is no such thing as a multiengine instrument rating or a single-engine instrument rating. It's one rating: instrument-airplane. You do an instrument checkride in an airplane and you get an instrument-airplane rating.

Isn't a chandelle a chandelle?

You don't do chandelles on a multiengine commercial checkride.

Or that when you get your AMES rating, you're now somehow incapable of landing a single engine seaplane?

You have to take a checkride for each category and class rating you want on your pilot certificate. I don't know what is hard to understand about it.

 

[Henning]

Doing an instrument rating in a multiengine does not give you a single-engine instrument rating for free, because there is no such thing as a multiengine instrument rating or a single-engine instrument rating. It's one rating: instrument-airplane. You do an instrument checkride in an airplane and you get an instrument-airplane rating.

Not quite. You do an IR in an SE, and your ticket is restricted with ME VFR only until you do a ride with the air work in an ME. If you do your IR in an ME, there is no restriction on SE validation.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Not quite. You do an IR in an SE, and your ticket is restricted with ME VFR only until you do a ride with the air work in an ME. If you do your IR in an ME, there is no restriction on SE validation.

Correct.

 

[Brad Z]

Slightly different question, but why not hijack the thread:

My understanding is that for a single commercial ride, I can do most of the ride in a non-complex single, and then bring along a complex plane for the maneuvers requiring it. My question is, can that complex plane be a multi?

The scenario is that I have easy(ish) access to a 182 and a Geronimo, and want to do commercial single + multi in one day. (I don't have private multi.) But it seems that if the answer to the above is "no", I'm stuck between the options of finding a complex single (to do single commercial first, then add on multi) or doing the full multi commercial de novo hours (to do multi commercial first, then add on single in the 182).

Any other options you guys see?

No, you can not use a multi-engine aircraft for the complex portion of the single-engine commercial check ride.

 

[Henning]

No, you can not use a multi-engine aircraft for the complex portion of the single-engine commercial check ride.

Well, if you do the CMEL ride first, then the complex portion of the SE ride does not exist. If you were doing both rides in a day, I'm not sure the DE would necessarily care which order.

 

[dmspilot]

Not quite. You do an IR in an SE, and your ticket is restricted with ME VFR only until you do a ride with the air work in an ME. If you do your IR in an ME, there is no restriction on SE validation.

Already posted. This does not dispute what I wrote. The point was that OP thinks having to do separate commercial rides for single and multiengine is a fluke. It is not a fluke. The restriction you posted about is the fluke.

 

[Henning]

Already posted. This does not dispute what I wrote.

Yes it does, you said it does not get you a free SE rating when in fact it does. If you do SE first, you will pay for both the SE and ME rides you have to take. If you do ME first, you do not have the expense of the SE ride you don't have to take.

 

[dmspilot]

Yes it does, you said it does not get you a free SE rating when in fact it does. If you do SE first, you will pay for both the SE and ME rides you have to take. If you do ME first, you do not have the expense of the SE ride you don't have to take.

You misunderstood my point. It does not because there is no such thing as a single-engine instrument rating. Thinking that there is is the reason OP is having touble understanding the logic.

 

[Henning]

You misunderstood my point. It does not because there is no such thing as a single-engine instrument rating. Thinking that there is is the reason OP is having touble understanding the logic.

I understand your point, but it is misleading and pedantic because in reality, there is through the application of a restriction. The point of the matter is cost savings by not needing to do 2 rides if you use a multi for the initial. The reality of the situation is there is no SE IR add on requirements if you have the ME, it's "free".

 

[dmspilot]

I understand your point, but it is misleading and pedantic because in reality, there is through the application of a restriction.

No one is arguing what the rules are. The OP asked *WHY* they are what they are. In order to better understand them, it is necessary to use correct terminology. I don't see that as pedantic.

The reality of the situation is there is no SE IR add on requirements if you have the ME, it's "free".

Again, there is no such thing as a single-engine instrument rating. The errant concept of separate single-engine and multiengine instrument ratings is leading to OP's confusion.

 

[Kritchlow]

Technically there may not be seperate ratings, but from a practical standpoint they are. VFR only in SEL and MEL, then get an IR in a single. You won't be able to exercise your IR privledges in the ME.

 

[Henning]

No one is arguing what the rules are. The OP asked *WHY* they are what they are. In order to better understand them, it is necessary to use correct terminology. I don't see that as pedantic.



Again, there is no such thing as a single-engine instrument rating. The errant concept of separate single-engine and multiengine instrument ratings is leading to OP's confusion.

What he was wondering about is why this one exemption exists and the answer is "because there are no special procedures that exist SE that do not exist ME" where as vice versa the statement is not true. That was the most expedient way to codify it. I understand your point, but it didn't address the issue of why you can skip a ride going one way.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The simple reason that an IR checkride in a twin carries over to allow IR priveleges in a Single is because you can demonstrate all of the required PTS tasks specified for both AMEL and ASEL in the twin, but you can obviously not demonstrate the AMEL specific IR tasks in a single.

That same reason (PTS task requirements) is why AMEL comm and ATP rides don't cover ASEL. The tasks for the different classes are unique enough that you can't demonstrate all with one particular class aircraft.

The one additional exception is with seaplane ratings and amphibs specifically. Henning can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are doing a seplane rating in an amphib (retractable gear - not just floats), you can accomplish both AMEL and AMES and ASEL/ASES in a single ride since you can demonstrate all required tasks for both in the same airplane.

IOW, you could theoretically do a COMM AMEL/AMES combined checkride in something like a Widgeon, Goose or Twin Bee.

 

[dmspilot]

What he was wondering about is why this one exemption exists and the answer is "because there are no special procedures that exist SE that do not exist ME" where as vice versa the statement is not true. That was the most expedient way to codify it. I understand your point, but it didn't address the issue of why you can skip a ride going one way.

You're not "skipping" a ride because the default is that an instrument-airplane rating applies to all classes of airplane. The exemption lies in the fact that you have to take an extra checkride if you want multiengine instrument privileges and you originally earned your instrument-airplane rating in a single.

 

[jaybee]

As I understand it and am about to do it, the most cost efficient way would be to do single engine instrument then commercial multi-engine with an approach thrown in to remove the vfr-only restriction, then do a single commercial in a 150/152 cheap pos. This assumes you have all the time needed.

 

[Henning]

As I understand it and am about to do it, the most cost efficient way would be to do single engine instrument then commercial multi-engine with an approach thrown in to remove the vfr-only restriction, then do a single commercial in a 150/152 cheap pos. This assumes you have all the time needed.

That's pretty much the most practical way to go about it. It's kinda what I did, but my SE Com I did in a Lake and got SEL and SES at the same time, so I ended up with a retract anyway.

 

[Fearless Tower]

As I understand it and am about to do it, the most cost efficient way would be to do single engine instrument then commercial multi-engine with an approach thrown in to remove the vfr-only restriction, then do a single commercial in a 150/152 cheap pos. This assumes you have all the time needed.

I'm not sure it is the cheapest, but maybe the best way to build ME time.

The reason I don't think it is the cheapest is that if you do the Comm ME first, it means you have to do the cross-counties in the twin.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The reason I don't think it is the cheapest is that if you do the Comm ME first, it means you have to do the cross-counties in the twin.

Got a reference for that? Not doubting, as such, but that doesn't make sense. A cross country is a cross country irregardless of the aircraft flown.

Edit. Ok, I see the requirement for a 2 hour day and a 2 hour night cross country in ME aircraft. The 300 nm cross country has no restriction. So as I see it, 4 hours minimum ME XC.

And it is by no means the cheapest way to go.

 

[jaybee]

61.129 b 3 contains some cross-country in a multi-engine but all that can be done by the time you accumulate the necessary 20 hours of multi-engine. Also, original statement included caveat of having all the time needed.

 

[Henning]

61.129 b 3 contains some cross-country in a multi-engine but all that can be done by the time you accumulate the necessary 20 hours of multi-engine. Also, original statement included caveat of having all the time needed.

Right, and if you do the ME as the add on, you only need about 7 in the plane on average, that 13hrs of multi time is the cost factor. However as has been pointed out, it's not really "extra" in the long scheme because before you are flying a twin solo, you'll have 20 dual. The only people who will save money are the people collecting ratings and will never fly twins again, or have a situation that takes over the costs as soon as the rating is in pocket. Otherwise those dual hours are irrelevant to the rating cost since you need them for insurability. So with that as a given, the 152IR, CMEL, 152CSEL route is the cheapest way to attain both ratings and operational capability.

 

[gismo]

Technically there may not be seperate ratings, but from a practical standpoint they are. VFR only in SEL and MEL, then get an IR in a single. You won't be able to exercise your IR privledges in the ME.

True but if you get your IR in a twin, you're immediately qualified to fly IFR in a single (assuming you have ASEL on your pilot cert).

A related issue that makes no sense to me is that if I make 3 takeoffs and landings in a twin I'm not qualified to carry pax in a single until I repeat the experience in a single.

 

[Henning]

True but if you get your IR in a twin, you're immediately qualified to fly IFR in a single (assuming you have ASEL on your pilot cert).

A related issue that makes no sense to me is that if I make 3 takeoffs and landings in a twin I'm not qualified to carry pax in a single until I repeat the experience in a single.

Because the emergency procedures/actions/options are different, and they assume you'll do one of those currency landindings simulated OEI. That's not available to you in a SE. Similarly you won't be practicing a power off approach in a twin.

 

[gismo]

Because the emergency procedures/actions/options are different, and they assume you'll do one of those currency landindings simulated OEI. That's not available to you in a SE. Similarly you won't be practicing a power off approach in a twin.

There's no requirement to practice a power off approach in a single or a one engine approach in a twin. I maintain that if you've landed a Baron 3 times in the last 90 days you're probably more qualified to land a Bonanza than someone who's only flown a C172 but the rules say they are legal and the Baron/Bonanza pilot isn't.

 

[Henning]

There's no requirement to practice a power off approach in a single or a one engine approach in a twin. I maintain that if you've landed a Baron 3 times in the last 90 days you're probably more qualified to land a Bonanza than someone who's only flown a C172 but the rules say they are legal and the Baron/Bonanza pilot isn't.

No requirement, no. You shouldn't have to be required to do the right/smart thing, it all works on the honor system anyway.

 

[gismo]

No requirement, no. You shouldn't have to be required to do the right/smart thing, it all works on the honor system anyway.

Henning, I very rarely fly practice landings in the Baron except for night currency each fall. Flying somewhere several times a month normally covers my landing currency in twins. I thought we were talking about currency not training.