club envy?

GeorgeC

GeorgeC

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GeorgeC
Are hp/complex clubs rare? I've seen the occasional partnership, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of Mo/nanza/anche clubs in my neck of the woods. Part of me thinks "if you build it, they will come", but another part of me thinks "it probably doesn't exist for a reason"...
 
Also rare in my neck of the woods. Best thing you can find around here is an Arrow II. I imagine the pilot base in a given area determines what’s on the flight line.
 
Insurance gets pricey for them in a club. Stay at four or less and it's pretty much the same as solo owner, just the low pilot is the driver of cost. In a club a new member with low hours could join at anytime. Plus with a lot of members so.e tend to not fly much, which means they are riskier when they do fly.



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Our 16 member equity club has a very nice 1966 Bonanza V35B. And I do think because we have it, it is a big reason we attract good members and often retain them for a very long time.

The other reason can be that the wet rental rate is one of the best in the area... $135 per tach hour.
 
Our club has one complex and one HP. So the clubs do exist.

Insurance isn't too bad... ~$6k

The club used to have a Mooney, but that was before my time.

I've been surprised that since redoing most of our website, which needs many improvements, I've been getting at least one inquiry per week. So I'd say there is demand. In our area anyway.

you can look at www.six4asix.com if curious.
 
Do you mean club or partnership?

The reason more don't exist is that they're a little bit of a PITA to set up. Ok, there isn't all that much to do, but it's buying an airplane plus setting up rules for the partnership plus advertising plus vetting shareholders plus, plus, plus. If you don't mind the work, go for it, you'll get less expensive flight hours. But you have to find the people willing to pony up 50k to buy in a share of a 200k airplane.

WCFC has 3 Mooneys, so there are clubs out there and the complex type doesn't add any overhead to the club.
 
Our club has a 182 and a Mooney.
 
I say a lot of it is insurance requirements or club requirements. I have a CPL but to rent the 182 in the club I need 10 hrs dual. Hard to justify spending almost 2 grand for the 1-2 flights a years i'd need 4 seats payload.
 
We have two planes and 12 members (I think). It’s incredibly affordable and cheaper than any rental outfit I’ve ever seen (by an incredibly large margin).

The two planes are a Comanche 250 and a Cherokee 235. Both high performance and one complex.
 
I was previously in a club at KDPA that had 2 172, 1 Archer and 1 Arrow.
 
Equity partnerships with just splitting costs and a MX hold back is the way to go. Most 'Clubs' I see are really just discount rental joints... when you're charging wet rates you're missing out on one of the biggest benefits to ownership, not having to game the cost of fuel.
 
OkieAviator said:
Equity partnerships with just splitting costs and a MX hold back is the way to go. Most 'Clubs' I see are really just discount rental joints... when you're charging wet rates you're missing out on one of the biggest benefits to ownership, not having to game the cost of fuel.
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I was in a partnership for one of my earlier Cherokees. To keep the fuel arrangement simple between owners the rule was to fill it to the tabs after each flight (34 of the maximum 50 gallon capacity). That rarely caused difficulty for the next user.

But that may not work well for a more complex airplane where the next person may need useful load for payload purposes and doesn't want 2/3 fuel left in the plane. We tried a system where we tracked all fuel and then once a year reallocated based on hours flown by each owner. But that just raised arguments about how frugal some flew the airplane slow and LOP vs others.

The "synthetic" wet rental rate seems one way clubs deal with that.

What have folks here in past or current partnerships found is the best way to manage this fuel issue?
 
There is no perfect way. NO ONE wants to have to transfer fuel into storage tanks in the hangar to solve the problem. THAT runs into spillage and possible bad hangar fire. The most exact solution is to top it off after every trip (thats how the car rental companies do it), but then you run into the next guy not wanting that much fuel in the airplane due to load considerations (a problem you dont have with car rental).

Best way Ive heard of is just to leave the amount of fuel thats in the tanks at the end of the trip and then the renter,, on his credit card, puts the fuel into the plane needed to make his flight. Then return the airplane with whatever fuel it has at the end of the flight. And hope things equal out. Thats what OWNERS do with THEIR airplane.
 
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OkieAviator said:
Equity partnerships with just splitting costs and a MX hold back is the way to go. Most 'Clubs' I see are really just discount rental joints... when you're charging wet rates you're missing out on one of the biggest benefits to ownership, not having to game the cost of fuel.
Click to expand...
I can’t like this enough. Aspen Flying Club was great but it’s not a flying club it’s a rental outfit.

I’ve been in two clubs now that were essentially partnerships (including my current). Owning equity share in the plane(s) makes you more apt to treat the plane right and baby it and you can find cheap fuel wherever you want just like outright ownership.

The model that seems to work best in my experience is the one where you pay a really low dry rate (like 25 or 30 bucks per tach hour) and you supply your own fuel and oil. The money is used to build a kitty to pay for things like annual and engine replacement. The buy in gets you an ownership stake.
 
SkyHog said:
I can’t like this enough. Aspen Flying Club was great but it’s not a flying club it’s a rental outfit.

I’ve been in two clubs now that were essentially partnerships (including my current). Owning equity share in the plane(s) makes you more apt to treat the plane right and baby it and you can find cheap fuel wherever you want just like outright ownership.

The model that seems to work best in my experience is the one where you pay a really low dry rate (like 25 or 30 bucks per tach hour) and you supply your own fuel and oil. The money is used to build a kitty to pay for things like annual and engine replacement. The buy in gets you an ownership stake.
Click to expand...

I guess the answer is “Depending on how much money you want to spend, and how often, will determine the best arrangement for you.” $35/month dues, no initial or equity buy-in, wet rates that are quite reasonable, and a large fleet seems to be quite attractive to a lot of pilots. If you want a “club” with two or three other pilots where you all have fractional ownership, well, that’s called a partnership. ;) Different situations = different benefits and drawbacks. Own vs rent. Lose an engine in a small partnership and the owners are out $$$. Renters in a club? They just reserve a different airplane and go flying. Yeah, there’s a little more to it, but that’s the soup-to-nuts of it, really.
 
Lachlan said:
I guess the answer is “Depending on how much money you want to spend, and how often, will determine the best arrangement for you.” $35/month dues, no initial or equity buy-in, wet rates that are quite reasonable, and a large fleet seems to be quite attractive to a lot of pilots. If you want a “club” with two or three other pilots where you all have fractional ownership, well, that’s called a partnership. ;) Different situations = different benefits and drawbacks. Own vs rent. Lose an engine in a small partnership and the owners are out $$$. Renters in a club? They just reserve a different airplane and go flying. Yeah, there’s a little more to it, but that’s the soup-to-nuts of it, really.
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Very true. As I said, Aspen Flying Club was awesome. Decent rental rates and a good enough selection that the planes were mostly available whenever you needed one. Can’t argue with that.

But saving money on fuel? No weird rental rules? Much better for me.
 
I thought you were talking about something else lol

main-room-second-floor.jpg
 
FlyCarolina at a few airports around Charlotte has a nice lineup. 172s, 172RG, Arrow, V-tail Bonanza 35, Cirrus SR22, Piper Lance, Baron, and Aztec. I was always going to join when I lived in Charlotte but never did.

http://www.flycarolina.com/flying_club
 
BrianNC said:
FlyCarolina at a few airports around Charlotte has a nice lineup. 172s, 172RG, Arrow, V-tail Bonanza 35, Cirrus SR22, Piper Lance, Baron, and Aztec. I was always going to join when I lived in Charlotte but never did.

http://www.flycarolina.com/flying_club
Click to expand...

I looked into them and thought they were way too pricey.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There is no perfect way. NO ONE wants to have to transfer fuel into storage tanks in the hangar to solve the problem. THAT runs into spillage and possible bad hangar fire. The most exact solution is to top it off after every trip (thats how the car rental companies do it), but then you run into the next guy not wanting that much fuel in the airplane due to load considerations (a problem you dont have with car rental).

Best way Ive heard of is just to leave the amount of fuel thats in the tanks at the end of the trip and then the renter,, on his credit card, puts the fuel into the plane needed to make his flight. Then return the airplane with whatever fuel it has at the end of the flight. And hope things equal out. Thats what OWNERS do with THEIR airplane.
Click to expand...

That is how we manage the fuel in our aircraft. The plane is usually left close to empty and who ever is flying puts the fuel in they need.
 
Very slim options in my area. Pretty much have to rent a plane from my flight school. But, they have a fairly decent selection of planes: 2 152's, 4 172's, 1 182, a Piper Cub, a Piper Arrow, and a Beech TravelAir.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There is no perfect way. <snip>

Best way Ive heard of is just to leave the amount of fuel thats in the tanks at the end of the trip and then the renter,, on his credit card, puts the fuel into the plane needed to make his flight. Then return the airplane with whatever fuel it has at the end of the flight. And hope things equal out. Thats what OWNERS do with THEIR airplane.
Click to expand...

midwestpa24 said:
That is how we manage the fuel in our aircraft. The plane is usually left close to empty and who ever is flying puts the fuel in they need.
Click to expand...

What about the impact of moisture gathering in the fuel tanks and causing corrosion? That's why in previous clubs, we were always told to refill the tanks after the last flight of the day.

Justin
 
Our club has a 182 (for the HP). We used to have an Arrow (complex), but we sold it a while back. Wasn't being flown enough. The last time I flew it was almost 5 years ago. I got tired of the pain in my knees from flying that thing, so I quit using it. We also have a couple 172s, but they aren't HP or complex (duh!).
 
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