Cloud deck thickness and VFR on top

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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IFR student here and I was wondering, taking off in IFR conditions how often can the normally aspirated GA bug smasher get through to fly VFR on top vs. going along in IMC? I have read somewhere that only about 15% of IFR flights are in actual IMC. I know that this is a vague question but flying along for hours inside a light bulb doesn't sound like fun. I would like to know from those that fly IFR regularly, how often you fly during daytime but never see the sun?
 
If I'm IFR I almost always see the sun. If I don't see the sun I'm VFR underneath.
 
Learn to read the Skew-T. Then pull up some different locations and see how it compares to the current weather. Sometimes you may not be able to climb out of the clouds, some times it is only a few hundred feet thick. So far, I have flown around 200 hours IFR and 50 of them have been in actual IFR conditions. But the past couple months were extremely wet and I racked most of my actual IFR over that time. I have only had a few flights where climbing above would not have been possible. Most trips where it is possible, it just was not feasible due to the distance and ATC keeping me in the soup.
 
for me, the best part of IFR flying is to get from picture 1 to picture 2
 

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Three things I found about IFR
1. It is very common to fly through the clouds and get on top, or in between.
2. Most of the challenge isnt from being in the clouds, its all that BAD weather (wind, ice, turbulence, thunderstorms etc).
3. There is no such thing as a routine IFR flight. Something out of the ordinary happens almost all the time, usually something with ATC communications.
 
EdFred said:
If I'm IFR I almost always see the sun. If I don't see the sun I'm VFR underneath.
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If not sun, I'm at least between layers. Slogging along in continuous IMC is quite rare. That usually only happens on the days I'm doing practice approaches in actual IMC.
 
Morgan3820 said:
IFR student here and I was wondering, taking off in IFR conditions how often can the normally aspirated GA bug smasher get through to fly VFR on top vs. going along in IMC? I have read somewhere that only about 15% of IFR flights are in actual IMC. I know that this is a vague question but flying along for hours inside a light bulb doesn't sound like fun. I would like to know from those that fly IFR regularly, how often you fly during daytime but never see the sun?
Click to expand...

Most GA flights that go IFR will make it on top. The main reason is that IMC that a GA plane can't get on top of, isn't safe to go into to begin with whether due to thunderstorms or icing. IFR for GA is for the most part about punching through layers, not cruising in them.
 
A lot of my IFR flights are breaking through the layer and beautiful sunny blue skies on top. Sometimes if I want more IMC I'll request lower or higher to get more actual.
 
Henning said:
Most GA flights that go IFR will make it on top. The main reason is that IMC that a GA plane can't get on top of, isn't safe to go into to begin with whether due to thunderstorms or icing. IFR for GA is for the most part about punching through layers, not cruising in them.
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Yes, I was thinking the same thing. The exception would be training flights in IMC where you deliberately choose altitudes that keep you in the clag. But in my solo excursions, even trying to stay IMC, I often break out into bright sunshine.
 
Forecasts and reports are often wrong. I've entered the clouds 1000' higher than than tops were forecast and reported. There are often layers going up, but sometimes you get stuck.

ATC held me at 7000' across most of SC, with frequent advisories and suggested headings, so they wouldn't have to vector me around Charlotte. When I begged for my filed 10,000' enough times, they let me climb into clear, blessedly smooth air and vectored me ten whole degrees.

I used to get frequent mountain obscurations in WV and eastern KY, but had good visibility several thousand feet above the tops. Just don't mess with widespread pop up storms like we had today, or embedded thunderstorms!
 
At least here in Texas you'll get low ceilings on a lot of mornings but clear above 2000'. Use the rating to punch up and punch down.
 
JasonM said:
Learn to read the Skew-T. Then pull up some different locations and see how it compares to the current weather. Sometimes you may not be able to climb out of the clouds, some times it is only a few hundred feet thick. So far, I have flown around 200 hours IFR and 50 of them have been in actual IFR conditions. But the past couple months were extremely wet and I racked most of my actual IFR over that time. I have only had a few flights where climbing above would not have been possible. Most trips where it is possible, it just was not feasible due to the distance and ATC keeping me in the soup.
Click to expand...

Great advice! Check out Scott D's website: www.AvWxWorkshops.com
 
Datadriver said:
At least here in Texas you'll get low ceilings on a lot of mornings but clear above 2000'. Use the rating to punch up and punch down.
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I left Ft. Lauderdale [FXE], went into the clouds around 500'. Several layers to clear air at 9000', then the tops rose over me, and halfway between Orlando and Georgia I flew out the bottoms and could see the next layer down. Visibility was good, then below broke up and was clear below by the state line.

Also went 2.2 or 2.3 hours from WV to Nashville at 4000/5000 once [a May cold front had the freezing level at 8000, but I didn't trust it to not dip lower], in the clouds from the first mile to about 3 mile final. Round trip flight the same day, clouds in both directions. Saw the ground maybe 12 minutes out of 4.5 hours.

That's why we train hard and practice regularly, and why the Instrument Rating is so difficult to complete. Weather forecasts and actual don't always match up, you gotta get back down, in control, at an airport.

Study hard, practice regularly, and please stay proficient, not just legal . . .
 
Morgan3820 said:
IFR student here and I was wondering, taking off in IFR conditions how often can the normally aspirated GA bug smasher get through to fly VFR on top vs. going along in IMC?
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Move to the coastal areas of California. Most of my IFR ops are to punch through a 2000' marine layer either at departure or my destination then VFR the rest of the way.
 
If convective activity is forecast I would not launch into conditions that do not guarantee flight on top...embedded thunderstorms scare me. Droning along in the clag is no fun when hand-flying and boring when the autopilot is flying. My first question is always "What are the tops?".

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
If convective activity is forecast I would not launch into conditions that do not guarantee flight on top...embedded thunderstorms scare me. Droning along in the clag is no fun when hand-flying and boring when the autopilot is flying. My first question is always "What are the tops?".

Bob Gardner
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:yeahthat:
If convective activity is forecast I don't do solo practice runs in actual. I passed up a couple of chances to shoot approaches already this week because of the forecast.
 
I'll remind you (only because you are a new student) that "VFR on top" is a specific IFR clearance. It's so common to be conducting normal IFR while in VMC on top of a cloud deck that it doesn't have a snazzy special term though most just say "on top."

Many years ago my wife and I were driving through the mountains in heavy fog. As she drove further up in elevation, the fog started to get much brighter. I told her that if she climbed up another 500' she'd be on top.
 
Normally, you should try to arrange to fly below, on top, or between layers in IFR conditions. It's just more comfortable and easier to see weather that way. (Well, below is usually bumpy but necessary sometimes to keep an eye on weather.)

Having said that, there are days when it's impossible to get on top of or between layers, and below is under MEA. This can happen in benign warm or stationary front situations, or in closed upper level lows that spread non hazardous widespread clag. In that case you get to build actual IFR time. I remember a near max range flight to Morgantown where I didn't see the ground from shortly after takeoff until breakout on the ILS.

In a light piston single IFR is not for all weather capability. IFR is mostly for making marginal VFR stress free and safe.

Cheers.
 
An important consideration for all you single engine IFR Comandos is what is the ceiling and visibility along my route of flight ? If the engine quits will I have enough "Room" to see and maneuver to somewhere survivable ? What about your systems - what might your aircraft lose systems wise when the engine quits ? Can you handle a partial panel situation while trying to deal with the engine failure ? On top of that it might be time to ask yourself "Do I REALLY NEED to be flying around in this sh*t or am I just trying to be macho ?".
 
Art VanDelay said:
An important consideration for all you single engine IFR Comandos is what is the ceiling and visibility along my route of flight ? If the engine quits will I have enough "Room" to see and maneuver to somewhere survivable ? What about your systems - what might your aircraft lose systems wise when the engine quits ? Can you handle a partial panel situation while trying to deal with the engine failure ? On top of that it might be time to ask yourself "Do I REALLY NEED to be flying around in this sh*t or am I just trying to be macho ?".
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Actually that's a valid question for every non commercial flight regardless the equipment. Even airliners sometimes just sit it out. It's just with an SEL and no chute, your bag of tricks is no bigger than your scrotum, you're a one trick pony.
 
Art VanDelay said:
An important consideration for all you single engine IFR Comandos is what is the ceiling and visibility along my route of flight ? If the engine quits will I have enough "Room" to see and maneuver to somewhere survivable ? What about your systems - what might your aircraft lose systems wise when the engine quits ? Can you handle a partial panel situation while trying to deal with the engine failure ? On top of that it might be time to ask yourself "Do I REALLY NEED to be flying around in this sh*t or am I just trying to be macho ?".
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:yes:
 
Macho has nothing to do with it. Some of us just aren't scared of bunnies and butterflies. No one really NEEDS to to anything except eat, drink, breathe, and crap. Everything else is optional.

I'm going to live my life, how I live my life, and with no dependents, if it's my time, it's my time. NO point in worrying about what might never happen.
 
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EdFred said:
I'm going to live my life, how I live my life, and with no dependents, if it's my time, it's my time. NO point in worrying about what MIGHT never happen.
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Might? I'm pretty sure your time will come, if you found a way around death, pls PM the details.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
EdFred said:
Macho has nothing to do with it. Some of us just aren't scared of bunnies and butterflies. No one really NEEDS to to anything except eat, drink, breathe, and crap. Everything else is optional.

I'm going to live my life, how I live my life, and with no dependents, if it's my time, it's my time. NO point in worrying about what might never happen.
Click to expand...

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Some people may think it's "macho" that I normally choose to go underneath. I still normally go, I just don't go IFR.
 
The first thing my students ask when doing our IFR x/c is "Will all the flights be IMC? That would be awesome". After about the second or third x/c in solid IMC, they will relent their idea of always flying IMC.

It's fun the first 10 hours. After that it sucks with no autopilot.
 
I had the experience of flying for about an hour or so in solid IMC when returning from Seattle to the SF Bay area. There was no auto pilot, so one had to be focused on instruments. I could not climb out of it due to icing (around Thanksgiving). Reaching middle of Oregon, it began to clear up.
 
EdFred said:
Macho has nothing to do with it. Some of us just aren't scared of bunnies and butterflies. No one really NEEDS to to anything except eat, drink, breathe, and crap. Everything else is optional.

I'm going to live my life, how I live my life, and with no dependents, if it's my time, it's my time. NO point in worrying about what might never happen.
Click to expand...

This.
 
EdFred said:
If I'm IFR I almost always see the sun. If I don't see the sun I'm VFR underneath.
Click to expand...

Same here.

Flying for long distances in clouds is exceedingly rare in my brief IFR experience. But I file IFR on every non-mountain XC now. I see clouds on climb out and at the end of the descent sometimes. Not much up high. I fly 11k or 12k most of the time and occasionally go up to the high teens or low FLs.
 
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