"Closed on Sundays"

[Jay Honeck]

Sorry, I've been there/done that. Sundays were always losers. When I had my business we eventually went to Sunday "by appointment only" and it was seldom utilized. Most people have other activities to spend their Sundays on, and being at the airport wasn't one of them.

Interesting. Sunday is the busiest day of the week at our airport. Everything from the sky-divers to fuel sales peaks Sunday.

Of course, we're a tourist destination, and all of the pilots are departing on Sunday. That doesn't explain the sky-divers, though...

The FBO at the field where my business was also took Sundays at a loss. Oh they would get the weekend flyers coming in, drinking their free coffee and eating the free donuts. These guys would hang out, go to the local restaurant (use the courtesy car) to eat then come back, hop in their planes and leave. No fuel sales, nothing.

Yeah, that's sorta the way it was in Iowa, too, most of the time. I guess it all depends if your airport is located where people want to go?

 

[denverpilot]

He was saying he ONLY buys avionics with tray mounted connectors so he CAN swap them.

The complaint was directed at when one has to wire in something new (or put a new tray in) that it requires an avionics guy/gal.

Having looked behind the panel of my 182, I used to see nothing but sloppy sloppy sloppy. Well, we fixed that by paying a non-sloppy avionics person to clean it up. (Actually he did it without asking when the ADF was pulled. Not cheap.

Sloppy happened prior to us owning it. He pulled 5 lbs of dead wiring that someone was too lazy to remove.

I could have cleaned all of that up. It's not rocket science to do clean, organized, properly terminated, wiring harnesses. But it's a W&B change. Can't sign off on that.

Especially in a 182 there's no excuse for that. There's acres of space back there to do it right.

Keep bundles away from stuff that has to move, label stuff, document with drawings and color-codes, think about how to not route things where they'll rub on stuff in a high-vibration environment.... Etc. Time consuming but not difficult.

 

[Tom-D]

The complaint was directed at when one has to wire in something new (or put a new tray in) that it requires an avionics guy/gal.

Not really, it requires a return to service entry by any authorized person,, most likely your A&P

it does not require an Avionics person.

If you would like to remove old wire harness that are no longer needed, simply remove them, because what's left is already been returned to service.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Not really, it requires a return to service entry by any authorized person,, most likely your A&P

it does not require an Avionics person.

If you would like to remove old wire harness that are no longer needed, simply remove them, because what's left is already been returned to service.

Man, I would LOVE to do that. It's a real snake pit of old wiring under there.

Trouble is, it's so tight under the panel that every time anyone so much as breathes on those wire bundles, something else seems to go inop.

 

[kyleb]

Um, no offense, but what you just described is called "capitalism", and it happens in every business -- not just groceries.

The point I was making was that there is no need to keep your business open 7 days if you can satisfy all of your customers in 6 or 5.

In today's world, what do FBO's provide on the weekend anyway? Fuel sales? That's about 99% of their business. So why not install pay at the pump technology at the self-serve pumps and close the physical FBO on Sunday, at least? Otherwise, all you're doing is adding to your expenses, without much benefit on the top line.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I'm always astounded at motorcycle shops that are closed on weekends. Used to fly out of an airport in VT and the flight school would close at 5 pm- always. Met a lot of people that would have flown with them after work in the summer, sunny days are rare enough closing up with three hours left on beautiful day is just sloppy business.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The point I was making was that there is no need to keep your business open 7 days if you can satisfy all of your customers in 6 or 5.

My point is that although they may be satisfying their existing customers, they are NOT satisfying their potential customers -- which is another way of saying they're not growing. In fact, most FBOs have been dying a long, slow death for (at least) the last twenty years.

When a business model no longer works, you have to look at things you can change. One thing you can proactively change is your operational hours so that you are open for business when the majority of your customers are active -- and that means weekends.

In today's world, what do FBO's provide on the weekend anyway? Fuel sales? That's about 99% of their business. So why not install pay at the pump technology at the self-serve pumps and close the physical FBO on Sunday, at least? Otherwise, all you're doing is adding to your expenses, without much benefit on the top line.

True enough, and most FBOs have installed self-serve, 24 hour gas pumps -- good on them! I am more concerned about aviation's high-dollar stuff -- avionics, interiors, props, etc. -- which are mostly unavailable on weekends, or much past 5 PM.

This is pretty much an extension of my frustration with an industry that almost completely ignores the biggest aviation event in the world -- Oshkosh -- and then has the gall to complain about declining sales. In every other motorsports hobby in the world -- boating, motorcycles, and cars -- a convention that attracted 750K visitors and 12,000 vehicles would be considered a "target rich environment" for installers of every type of modification.

In the rarified world of aviation, however, all they can come up with are excuses for NOT installing (fill-in-the-blank-modification) during the show. It's simply considered "too hard" for them to do, so they don't even try to do it.

In the business world, that's simply inexcusable. It seems to me the aviation industry is trapped in a paradigm that isn't working, and is controlled by people who are unwilling to accept that fact.

 

[DaleB]

Man, I would LOVE to do that. It's a real snake pit of old wiring under there.

Trouble is, it's so tight under the panel that every time anyone so much as breathes on those wire bundles, something else seems to go inop.

If I may... I'm not an avionics guy, and I don't play one on TV either. But I've been a computer guy since the days of the dinosaur (IBM S/360), and a radio guy for about as long.

If things aren't done properly over a long period of time, like wiring behind the panel on any vehicle 30 or 40 or 50 years old, it will get to a state that I like to call "delicate". Touch anything, and you risk breaking something. The big problem with that is that you can't always predict when it's going to break, or if it's going to require you monkeying around with it or not. Eventually vibration, temperature and humidity changes, and the occasional foot will cause randome failures at the worst possible time.

Sometimes you just need to pull it all and start from scratch. Take the time and make the effort to do it right, replace what needs it, fix what needs it, lace it, zip-tie it, tape it and document it. It can be quite painful, but at least it's not going to break if you look at it cross-eyed.

Sorry to butt in.

 

[Jay Honeck]

If I may... I'm not an avionics guy, and I don't play one on TV either. But I've been a computer guy since the days of the dinosaur (IBM S/360), and a radio guy for about as long.

If things aren't done properly over a long period of time, like wiring behind the panel on any vehicle 30 or 40 or 50 years old, it will get to a state that I like to call "delicate". Touch anything, and you risk breaking something. The big problem with that is that you can't always predict when it's going to break, or if it's going to require you monkeying around with it or not. Eventually vibration, temperature and humidity changes, and the occasional foot will cause randome failures at the worst possible time.

Sometimes you just need to pull it all and start from scratch. Take the time and make the effort to do it right, replace what needs it, fix what needs it, lace it, zip-tie it, tape it and document it. It can be quite painful, but at least it's not going to break if you look at it cross-eyed.

Sorry to butt in.

You are absolutely right. If there was a reasonably price, convenient avionics guy nearby, I would get a quote on what it would cost to have that done.

I've even heard a rumor that there's a new avionics guy in Ingleside, at our old airport on the mainland. Hmmm...might have to call him.

Has anyone ever done this? What do you suppose it would cost to have a guy go through the wiring and replace/repair/remove what needs doing? Our plane is all steam gauges, two radios, two VORs, auto pilot, an audio panel, and an intercom. (But with a JPI EDM-700, fuel flow gauge, and a panel docked 496, just to clutter things up.)

 

[Everskyward]

True enough, and most FBOs have installed self-serve, 24 hour gas pumps -- good on them! I am more concerned about aviation's high-dollar stuff -- avionics, interiors, props, etc. -- which are mostly unavailable on weekends, or much past 5 PM.

I'm not sure who goes shopping for avionics, interiors or props on weekends at airports which are small enough to be unstaffed on Sundays. Maybe a compromise would be to make an appointment if the only time you can get there is on a weekend or after hours. Just in casual observation it seems to me that the success of an airport depends on its location more than anything else. Airports do better in tourist areas or places where there are natural resources or businesses or some reason for people to fly in besides the fact that it's there.

 

[Tom-D]

You are absolutely right. If there was a reasonably price, convenient avionics guy nearby, I would get a quote on what it would cost to have that done.

I've even heard a rumor that there's a new avionics guy in Ingleside, at our old airport on the mainland. Hmmm...might have to call him.

Has anyone ever done this? What do you suppose it would cost to have a guy go through the wiring and replace/repair/remove what needs doing? Our plane is all steam gauges, two radios, two VORs, auto pilot, an audio panel, and an intercom. (But with a JPI EDM-700, fuel flow gauge, and a panel docked 496, just to clutter things up.)

IMH Experience this is the time to do the whole instrument panel upgrade. pull out the entire instrument panel and rewire the whole shebang. all new hoses, static system, throttle mixture, and carb heat..... all of it while you got it apart

 

[DaleB]

Yeah. See how great we are at spending your money, Jay? What would you do without us?

 

[Jay Honeck]

I'm not sure who goes shopping for avionics, interiors or props on weekends at airports which are small enough to be unstaffed on Sundays.

You have conflated two separate points. Airports being closed on Sundays is a separate, but related, issue.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Yeah. See how great we are at spending your money, Jay? What would you do without us?

You guys will get NO WHERE with me by acting like my wife.

I would LOVE to rip the panel out of Atlas, and start over. But why in the world would I put $40K into a plane that is probably worth $60K?

Yet another reason I want an RV-8. I love my airplane -- it fits me like a comfortable pair of cowboy boots -- but it is SO frustrating that to maintain or upgrade it takes an act of Congress, and a bushel-basket full of gold.

 

[Everskyward]

You have conflated two separate points. Airports being closed on Sundays is a separate, but related, issue.

OK, but I still think that it would be unusual for most businesses of that type (avionics shops, prop shops or places that do interiors) to expect drop-in customers outside of normal business hours. I think making an appointment would be the best solution for both sides in these cases.

 

[BillTIZ]

When we were in Germany in '08, I was amazed to discover that it was ILLEGAL for truck drivers to be on the road on Sunday. If they were out in the middle of nowhere when "Sunday" hit, too bad -- they parked 'em and found a hotel.

This made driving on the autobahn a lot more fun, but I still marvel at that law's stupidity.

Massachusetts used to be like that back in the 70s, don't know if they still are. No commercial long haul trucks on the road on Sunday's. All the drivers got home Sat AM, and were back at the terminals Sun night ready to pull out at midnight.

 

[N801BH]

I have a friend who used to run a locally owned grocery store in a small town. Making up numbers here, but his store and the competition across town used to sell, say $100k of goods in a week. Both stores were open 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Then a nationally owned chain moved in, open 24/7. To compete, the locally owned stores had to be open 24/7 too.

So now, instead of spreading $100k of sales across 120 hours of open door time across the two stores in town, the same $100k in sales was divided 3 ways and spread across 504 hours a week.

In my friends words, that ruined the grocery business for everyone.

Not that this is necessarily the case for aviation businesses, but I'm sure being open on weekends, particularly Sundays, isn't a viable business model for every aviation related business.

The grocery store business model is quite different then most others... You are selling a product that is perishable,,, Some stuff can sit on the shelf for months,,, meats, dairy, produce and other items have a very short term (sell by) life... The 24 / 7 model works best for those products... The grocery stores that are open 10 hours a day 6 days a week are having to inflate the price on all items to cover the perishable ones whos clock is running when they are closed on Sunday..... My .02 worth..

 

[Ddayle]

I am not in the aircraft business. I am in the auto motive service industry. I used to be open Saturdays, and they were both busy & profitable. The
downtrend of the economy for the last decade dried up my Saturday business. I don't like being at work on Saturday with no customers. Now Sat. is appt. only with a deposit. I work very few Saturdays. People TELL me they want to have work done on Saturday, but often these same people do not show up, this is why I take a deposit. No sales = not open.A verbal demand for open business does not always mean a profit on that service. Dave

 

[kyleb]

The grocery store business model is quite different then most others... You are selling a product that is perishable,,, Some stuff can sit on the shelf for months,,, meats, dairy, produce and other items have a very short term (sell by) life... The 24 / 7 model works best for those products... The grocery stores that are open 10 hours a day 6 days a week are having to inflate the price on all items to cover the perishable ones whos clock is running when they are closed on Sunday..... My .02 worth..

Way off topic, but...

I suspect the cost of labor, utilities, and management to keep the doors open another 100+ hours a week would far exceed the cost of spoilage.

 

[kyleb]

My point is that although they may be satisfying their existing customers, they are NOT satisfying their potential customers -- which is another way of saying they're not growing. In fact, most FBOs have been dying a long, slow death for (at least) the last twenty years.

Jay, do you fully staff your hotel 24/7? Can I order a sandwich, call for an iron, or request more towels at 3:30 AM and get the same service I'd get at 2:00 PM?

Same thing. Businesses staff up for when the customers are going to be there and cut staffing/services when customers aren't anticipated.

GA isn't dying because of FBO hours. It is dying because the generation(s) who thought aviation was something special and noteworthy are leaving due to age and mortality and because nobody has stepped in behind them. In an era of instant gratification, aviation is losing out to the X box, reality TV, and facebook...

 

[wsuffa]

In an era of instant gratification, aviation is losing out to the X box, reality TV, and facebook...

And cost, and an attitude of total risk avoidance.

 

[DaleB]

I would LOVE to rip the panel out of Atlas, and start over. But why in the world would I put $40K into a plane that is probably worth $60K?

I sure wouldn't. Disclaimer: You own an airplane, I don't... but I will within the next couple of years, and since I don't have any ailing rich relatives and don't play the lottery, it's not going to be anything built in the last 20 years. I can see myself having to do the exact same thing, and to be honest I hope to be able to do much of the work myself. So I've given this some thought.

I'd pull the panel, clean up the wiring, replace anything that needs it (including hoses, etc) and maybe update some electronics. If you're in a situation anywhere close to mine I am talking about not a brand-new-Garmin update, but maybe a couple-few grand for good, solid, used 10 year old radios in place of ancient ones. That sort of thing. Maybe a few minor and not bank-breaking improvements. I'd figure out what it should cost and budget 50 to 75% above that to try to prevent nasty surprises. If possible I'd strip, paint and re-placard the panel itself, or skin it with something nice looking. Possibly even build a new one, though I haven't yet learned what can and can't be done there and who has to do it.

Anyway... pie in the sky. I'm just half-musing, half-planning, and just got my new FAR the other day so I can read up on who is able to do what. I figure anything I can do myself and have someone else inspect & sign off on, I'll do myself.

 

[DaleB]

And cost, and an attitude of total risk avoidance.

Not to mention a general "I don't wanna live a boring life, I wanna do something exciting" mentality -- but with no desire to sacrifice or leave the comfort zone to get there.

Oh, sorry -- wrong thread.

 

[Tom-D]

You guys will get NO WHERE with me by acting like my wife.

I would LOVE to rip the panel out of Atlas, and start over. But why in the world would I put $40K into a plane that is probably worth $60K?

Where did you get the 40k number, the last panel upgrade I did was $6500.with new panel and new wiring.

Yet another reason I want an RV-8. I love my airplane -- it fits me like a comfortable pair of cowboy boots -- but it is SO frustrating that to maintain or upgrade it takes an act of Congress, and a bushel-basket full of gold.

Do you believe it is less expensive to buy radios and instruments for a EXP aircraft rather than a Certified? Remember the RV series have the same equipment as a cessna or a piper. The appliances are all the same.

 

[N801BH]

Way off topic, but...

I suspect the cost of labor, utilities, and management to keep the doors open another 100+ hours a week would far exceed the cost of spoilage.

Maybe another 10 hours a week...... Not 100........

 

[jesse]

How about an avionics shop? Or a prop shop? It seems that these businesses -- dying, all -- would benefit greatly from performing their services when their customer base is most available.

Have you considered the possibility that pilots want to fly their airplanes over the weekend instead of putting them in a shop? Many many many car mechanics are closed or have very limited hours on the weekend too.

 

[Tom-D]

When this thread started I call an accountant friend that does the books for an FBO near here, and I asked this question, "How much is the cost per hour to keep the doors open at _________?"

She just got back to me, she said the number I was looking for was $250.00 per hour.

My thoughts? I'm glad I'm not a FBO. I'm content to be an independent service provider at several airports.

 

[kyleb]

Do you believe it is less expensive to buy radios and instruments for a EXP aircraft rather than a Certified? Remember the RV series have the same equipment as a cessna or a piper. The appliances are all the same.

If you limit your search to certified hardware, you're correct. But if you can use experimental hardware, you can buy a very high quality experimental glass panel for a fraction of what Garmin or the other certified systems cost. You can install it yourself without 337's, STC's, or any of the other paperwork that ends up costing you an arm and leg.

That's one of the beauties of the experimental world.

 

[dmspilot]

If you limit your search to certified hardware, you're correct. But if you can use experimental hardware, you can buy a very high quality experimental glass panel for a fraction of what Garmin or the other certified systems cost. You can install it yourself without 337's, STC's, or any of the other paperwork that ends up costing you an arm and leg.

That's one of the beauties of the experimental world.

Well, I understand that you could convert a certified aircraft to experimental and do the same thing, but then it would be very difficult or impossible to convert it back.

 

[Doggtyred]

Do you believe it is less expensive to buy radios and instruments for a EXP aircraft rather than a Certified? Remember the RV series have the same equipment as a cessna or a piper. The appliances are all the same.

But you can install them yourself, which is a big part of the cost.

 

[N801BH]

But you can install them yourself, which is a big part of the cost.

That is pretty accurate too...
A local guy put a new glass panel in his steam gauge equipted certified plane, just about 1/2 was labor alone for the avionics shop to install those items..

His panel was about the same price as my complete experimental build.

 

[weilke]

"How much is the cost per hour to keep the doors open at _________?"

She just got back to me, she said the number I was looking for was $250.00 per hour.

My thoughts? I'm glad I'm not a FBO. I'm content to be an independent service provider at several airports.

The question should be: 'How much does it cost to keep the FBO open one more[/] hour. Liability insurance for the shop and loan on the building are paid. All you should have is the cost for a staff member and utilities..

 

[woodstock]

Maybe they are respecting the Sabbath.

 

[Doggtyred]

Maybe they are respecting the Sabbath.

That would be Saturday.

 

[JGoodish]

Put it this way - I do not, and will never give money to Chik-Fil-A. Guess why....

If a business is not there for me when I need them, I won't be there for them when they need me.

You only need fast food on Sundays? If that's the case, I guess Chick-fil-a isn't your restaurant, but you're missing out on perhaps the best chicken sandwich you can buy (that would be the spicy chicken... puts the now-overpriced Wendy's to shame).

I think the reality in aviation is that many businesses struggle to keep their doors open period, much less 7 days a week. The ones who do business or corporate work don't see much of it on the weekends. The little guy who's been in business for 30 or 40 years has seen a significant drop-off in business in recent years. He sure as heck isn't going to waste his time sitting around the airport waiting for a few folks to fly in and buy a couple of charts.

Outside of aviation, I am convinced that the reason big boxes kill mom and pops is that the mom and pops don't want to change. They want to keep doing what they've been doing for decades, and competition pees in their punchbowl. I've become frustrated with the big boxes at times and have repeatedly tried local mom and pop shops, only to encounter... even greater frustration. They don't stock it, won't get it for you, aren't interested in selling it to you, or, if you get past all of that, only accept cash or check and, by the way, no refunds. Why am I going to deal with all of that when I can buy from Walmart or Lowe's with less hassle? Notice that I didn't once mention price.


JKG

 

[kyleb]

Well, I understand that you could convert a certified aircraft to experimental and do the same thing, but then it would be very difficult or impossible to convert it back.

Technically, yes. Practically, no. You'd be limited to an experimental R&D or similar registration, which would have to be renewed at least annually. The FAA isn't fond of that, so you'd need a real justification to keep it registered that way. Also, you couldn't go anywere or carry passengers with the airplane registered that way, since the aircraft's purpose would be flight test, not transportation.

The context here was for Jay's hypothetical RV-8. That airplane would give him the option of installing non-certified avionics with incredible functionality at a reasonable (for aviation) price.

 

[Tom-D]

But you can install them yourself, which is a big part of the cost.

Find a freelanced A&P that will allow you to do the work under their supervision.

 

[Tom-D]

The question should be: 'How much does it cost to keep the FBO open one more[/] hour. Liability insurance for the shop and loan on the building are paid. All you should have is the cost for a staff member and utilities..

one more hour?? I thought we were talking about Saturday and Sunday

 

[weilke]

one more hour?? I thought we were talking about Saturday and Sunday

You said it costs $250/hr to keep the doors open in a FBO. I pointed out that in order to decide whether extending hours is worthwhile, you have to look at the incremental cost, not the total.

Rather than amortizing insurance payments, lease etc. over those extra 16hrs, all that counts is how much do I have to pay for staff and utilities (and unless you have a lineman that pulls $150/hr, that cost is not going to be anywhere close to the number you were given).

 

[Tom-D]

Technically, yes. Practically, no. You'd be limited to an experimental R&D or similar registration, which would have to be renewed at least annually. The FAA isn't fond of that, so you'd need a real justification to keep it registered that way. Also, you couldn't go anywere or carry passengers with the airplane registered that way, since the aircraft's purpose would be flight test, not transportation.

The context here was for Jay's hypothetical RV-8. That airplane would give him the option of installing non-certified avionics with incredible functionality at a reasonable (for aviation) price.

Any Certified aircraft placed in EXP category for testing can only be returned to service by a A&P or other authorized person.

that aircraft must be returned to airworthy by its type certificate or properly altered condition before it can be flown for any purpose other than testing of the equipment installed.

This is usually the method of gaining a STC, when the STC is granted the aircraft is signed off as being properly altered by the STC, and returned to its airworthy condition in the normal category.