"Closed on Sundays"

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
Or, worse yet, "Closed weekends".

You have to ask yourself if some aviation-oriented businesses aren't their own worst enemy. Here they are, set up to cater to the bug-smashing fly-in crowd, which -- by and large -- is a weekend-only group, and they CLOSE THEIR DOORS ON SUNDAYS?

WTF is wrong with this picture? That's half of their available business!

Here are just a couple of relatively local examples:

1. The FBO in Kenedy, TX is listed as "Mon-Fri" only. There is darned little reason to fly into Kenedy, TX, ever -- so why be closed on the two most potentially busiest days of the week?

2. Texas Air Museum, Stinson Field, San Antonio, TX. This fly-in aviation museum is closed on Sundays -- again, 50% of the available flying time for 95% of the GA flying public.

This used to drive us nuts in Iowa and Wisconsin, too. While the whole world (with the notable exception of car dealers) has moved away from "Closed on Sundays", a fair percentage of aviation businesses have not. Considering this is when the vast majority of pilots are available, it seems crazy to me that they would be closed Sundays yet open (for example) on Tuesdays.

This actually applies to fly-ins and pancake breakfasts, too. Why in the world does EVERYONE try to pile onto Saturday morning? And why only breakfast? Why not a "barbecue lunch" -- on Sunday?
 
I can give you a couple of reasons. Normally, Sundays are overtime days or you have to hire extra staff. You could have a day off in the week but I'm sure some guy (like me) would ***** you're closed Thursday. Also, why would you stay open just to serve the odd pilot who stumbles through. There's the self-serve gas. Have at it.
My local FBO is open 8am to dusk. Often times, the office staff is there well past that. I've been there for hours and not seen a customer. They're still paying staff to hang about.
And we haven't yet started talking about the state and local laws. Get rid of them and you might see more businesses of all kinds open. Hell, it's near midnight. I wish I could find a place to buy a bottle of whisky and a six of beer!
 
I hated it when I lived in LA (Louisiana). I could not get anything done around the house on Sunday, unless I planned ahead. No last minute trips to the hardware store on Sunday, and most home projects take three trips anyway. All the stores were closed on Sundays. State law.
 
Restaurants that have to close for one or two days a week (mostly) have insight enough to close on Mondays or Tuesdays.

Not sure why some of the flight schools in our area close on Sundays.
 
I'm a fan of those places... and I don't work on Sunday, either. Six days of flight training is certainly enough, and one day of rest is quite nice. Besides, some of those people like to go somewhere, do something, etc... too! Money isn't everything.

Ryan
 
I can give you a couple of reasons. Normally, Sundays are overtime days or you have to hire extra staff.
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In the world of part-time staff (which is most of the employment world, nowadays), you simply hire another weekend person. Weekend jobs are actually far easier to fill than weekday jobs, in my experience. There are lots of folks looking for supplemental income.

You could have a day off in the week but I'm sure some guy (like me) would ***** you're closed Thursday.
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WRT an FBO, that's probably true. But an aviation attraction, like a museum? I think being closed Tue/Wed (like many of the restaurants are here on the island) makes a lot of sense, rather than losing one of your precious weekend days.

Also, why would you stay open just to serve the odd pilot who stumbles through. There's the self-serve gas. Have at it.
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Well, another for instance: An avionics shop. Or a prop shop. Lots of guys have a difficult time getting off work to fly their plane to an avionics shop during the week. It would make heaps of sense for them to be open weekends.

My local FBO is open 8am to dusk. Often times, the office staff is there well past that. I've been there for hours and not seen a customer. They're still paying staff to hang about.
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True, it's a chicken/egg problem.

And we haven't yet started talking about the state and local laws. Get rid of them and you might see more businesses of all kinds open. Hell, it's near midnight. I wish I could find a place to buy a bottle of whisky and a six of beer!
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Come to the island. The bar crowd hasn't even gotten STARTED yet this evening... :D
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'm a fan of those places... and I don't work on Sunday, either. Six days of flight training is certainly enough, and one day of rest is quite nice. Besides, some of those people like to go somewhere, do something, etc... too! Money isn't everything.

Ryan
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True, as an employee. Not so true as a customer.

I just get really frustrated with an industry that whines about a "diminishing customer base" and "double digit declines in sales" -- yet doesn't exercise sound judgement on the simplest things.

Like being open when your customers are available.
 
Jay Honeck said:
True, as an employee. Not so true as a customer.

I just get really frustrated with an industry that whines about a "diminishing customer base" and "double digit declines in sales" -- yet doesn't exercise sound judgement on the simplest things.

Like being open when your customers are available.
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Understood. FYI, the Stinson Air Museum is good, but they could really use some more young, enthusiastic blood. In fact, they could use it very badly... I'm just too busy, and have way too many irons in the fire to contribute significantly. Also, if you're ever up this way on a Saturday, and I can swing it, you need to stop by 53T.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
Understood. FYI, the Stinson Air Museum is good, but they could really use some more young, enthusiastic blood. In fact, they could use it very badly... I'm just too busy, and have way too many irons in the fire to contribute significantly. Also, if you're ever up this way on a Saturday, and I can swing it, you need to stop by 53T.

Ryan
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What's funny is that I would be terribly harmed if more aviation businesses followed my recommendations, and were closed during the week (rather than on weekends) -- since I can NEVER go anywhere on a Saturday! This means we pretty much only fly during the week, or on Sunday afternoons.

But that's because I have acknowledged that (in my business) weekends are paramount, and I need to be here -- so I work every Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

Aviation businesses would be wise to do the same, IMHO.
 
Jay Honeck said:
What's funny is that I would be terribly harmed if more aviation businesses followed my recommendations, and were closed during the week (rather than on weekends) -- since I can NEVER go anywhere on a Saturday! This means we pretty much only fly during the week, or on Sunday afternoons.

But that's because I have acknowledged that (in my business) weekends are paramount, and I need to be here -- so I work every Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

Aviation businesses would be wise to do the same, IMHO.
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53T sometimes has activity on Wednesdays, too.
 
Our little city run FBO is open here on Sun. From 10-2 and if you need help after hours there is a cell no. Posted on the door.
 
Put it this way - I do not, and will never give money to Chik-Fil-A. Guess why....

If a business is not there for me when I need them, I won't be there for them when they need me.
 
Jay Honeck said:
This actually applies to fly-ins and pancake breakfasts, too. Why in the world does EVERYONE try to pile onto Saturday morning?
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I think I know the answer to that one. It seems to me that people do more family things on Sunday plus some people go to church. When I had a choice of days off I would try to work Sundays because there wasn't much open and other people were doing things with their families so I might as well work.
 
Car rental places are the worst. There are lots of places I'd like to fly into on a Saturday and rent a car for the day or overnight but it seems like every one of them are closed on weekends.
 
I have noticed that a lot of FBOs have very poor customer service. Quite a few act like they are doing you a favor by allowing you to be their customer.

At least two FBO/flight schools I've dealt with won't let you rent an airplane after hours (5pm) (and yes, one is even closed all day Sunday) because they have to be there to put the airplanes back in the hangar. Nevermind they are pieces of crap airplanes that have no reason to be hangared in the first place. There are other places with much nicer airplanes that they let sit outside and you can rent anytime you want.

SkyHog said:
Put it this way - I do not, and will never give money to Chik-Fil-A. Guess why....
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Ha! I've been to Chik-Fil-A maybe two times in five years. It seems like I always get a craving to eat there on Sundays, and only on Sundays. (Though to be fair, I generally avoid all fast food.)
 
Those with short historical memories will remember or know of a time when everything was closed on Sundays/

This was due to cultural and religiously-based respect for the Sabbath (the day of rest on the seventh day mandated in the Ten Commandments).

The Jewish sabbath is Saturday. Christianity shifted the day to Sunday.

Most of the west adopted both days and now we have a "weekend."

Jay's lament for days gone by is very selective, though.

:rolleyes2:
 
Same reason Big Box Stores are taking over the country, because in their own BIG ironic way, they offer a service that ma and pa don't. They are there when I need them. I accept less quality for less money and I trade convenience. Its the life most of us live and some communities have habits that are hard to break.

Aviation is far from the only culprit here. Most hobby (for lack of a better word) type companies fall prey here. Scuba, Boating (marine supplies), home improvement...I could go on forever.

As far as working Sundays? If your in retail, its a way of life, been that way forever.

We love to complain about Home Depot/Walmart/Target/Lowes/West Marine/insert your favorite here, but I can go anytime and get a reasonable facsimile of what I'm looking for. If I wait until ma and pa opens up, I'm back to my 12 hour days and I don't have time.
 
I have a friend who used to run a locally owned grocery store in a small town. Making up numbers here, but his store and the competition across town used to sell, say $100k of goods in a week. Both stores were open 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Then a nationally owned chain moved in, open 24/7. To compete, the locally owned stores had to be open 24/7 too.

So now, instead of spreading $100k of sales across 120 hours of open door time across the two stores in town, the same $100k in sales was divided 3 ways and spread across 504 hours a week.

In my friends words, that ruined the grocery business for everyone.

Not that this is necessarily the case for aviation businesses, but I'm sure being open on weekends, particularly Sundays, isn't a viable business model for every aviation related business.
 
Depending where you lived until the 80s, the Blue Laws required some stores to be closed and those open, limit what they could sell.

In Texas you could buy mens socks on Sunday but not womens stockings. And the list went on and on and on....Having grown up in New York (everything is open all the time) it was culture shock in more ways than one.
 
It's funny - South Australia in most ways feels a lot like here; folks speak a reasonable facsimile of English (I kid!), urban and suburban development are more American-looking than Euro, and one finds a similar mix of retail and the like.

But.

You'd better get your marketing done during regular business hours, because everything pretty much rolls-up and blows away at around 6:00 PM, and is plain shuttered-up all day Sunday. Sole meaningful exception is groceries.

I am not certain how much of a disaster it is; other than hardware / Home Depot type stuff, I rarely *have* to have anything at a particular time. But it's an interesting contrast.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
So why don't you start an aviation business, at an airport? And I'm not talking about a hotel near an airport, but a for real FBO type business?
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Because there simply isn't enough business to make it worth complying with this,

http://www.portofskagit.com/images/uploads/e-3_airport_minimum_standards_for_website_2010.pdf

1 of the two FBOs have closed their doors due to the lack of business

So, I don't hang out a sign, and act as an independent maintenance provider. That relieces me from becoming a CRS, and complying with all the BS the FAA requires to be one.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
What's funny is that I would be terribly harmed if more aviation businesses followed my recommendations, and were closed during the week (rather than on weekends) -- since I can NEVER go anywhere on a Saturday! This means we pretty much only fly during the week, or on Sunday afternoons.

But that's because I have acknowledged that (in my business) weekends are paramount, and I need to be here -- so I work every Friday/Saturday/Sunday.

Aviation businesses would be wise to do the same, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Most Pilots/owners will keep their aircraft maintained well enough that it isn't broke when they try to fly Saturday or Sunday.

If it does break when they fly on the weekends, they tie it down and call their A&P, on Monday they will get it repaired during the week, while the shippers and suppliers are open too.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
I just get really frustrated with an industry that whines about a "diminishing customer base" and "double digit declines in sales" -- yet doesn't exercise sound judgement on the simplest things.

Like being open when your customers are available.
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Exactly. As a business, if you plan on staying in business, you have to work when your customers are going to be swarming the place throwing their money around. You also have to encourage them to be there - you just can't be a hole in the wall expecting people to come to you.

There's no rule saying you have to have saturday/sunday off. If necessary move your stereotypical weekend to the middle of the week when you're sitting around doing nothing. Actually I find taking days off during the week is the best time. Everyone else is working (businesses are open) and parks and such are near deserted so you're not getting trampled by the mobs. It's less stress and more fun. Then when they're off and you're working, they have nothing better to do than to come to your place of business since everyone else is closed for the weekend.
 
Weekends? What are those? :)

Just had two calls in two hours on different IT-related problems on a Saturday, and seeing a poop-storm starting in e-mail about yet another telco-related one that no one is disciplined enough to do proper testing on. (Calls aren't arriving from a customer and they're guessing at where the problem is, instead of testing.)

Trying to decide if I'm going to get sucked into that, or go pick up the cat's special food at the Vet, who's just barely open on Saturday (closes early).

FBOs and Grocery Stores ain't got nothing on "my computer's broke! my telephone's broke! fix it now! whaaaa!". :rofl:
 
murphey said:
Depending where you lived until the 80s, the Blue Laws required some stores to be closed and those open, limit what they could sell.

In Texas you could buy mens socks on Sunday but not womens stockings. And the list went on and on and on....Having grown up in New York (everything is open all the time) it was culture shock in more ways than one.
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In parts of Europe (including some larger towns in Germany), it's still very much this way. One of the last times I checked a bag (at least 10, maybe 15 years ago), the airline lost it. I was arriving Sunday AM and had a Monday AM business meeting.....

I think the only time I've checked a bag since was when the UK imposed a single, small briefcase sized, carryon limit.
 
kyleb said:
I have a friend who used to run a locally owned grocery store in a small town. Making up numbers here, but his store and the competition across town used to sell, say $100k of goods in a week. Both stores were open 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Then a nationally owned chain moved in, open 24/7. To compete, the locally owned stores had to be open 24/7 too.

So now, instead of spreading $100k of sales across 120 hours of open door time across the two stores in town, the same $100k in sales was divided 3 ways and spread across 504 hours a week.

In my friends words, that ruined the grocery business for everyone.

Not that this is necessarily the case for aviation businesses, but I'm sure being open on weekends, particularly Sundays, isn't a viable business model for every aviation related business.
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Um, no offense, but what you just described is called "capitalism", and it happens in every business -- not just groceries. The steps are:

1. Open a new business
2. Thrive/prices high
3. Competitors take notice.
4. Open new, competing business
5. Prices drop.
6. Weakest business fails.
7. Survivor thrives/prices go back up

Repeat, rinse. It's the American way, and it works marvelously well for consumers.
 
wsuffa said:
In parts of Europe (including some larger towns in Germany), it's still very much this way. One of the last times I checked a bag (at least 10, maybe 15 years ago), the airline lost it. I was arriving Sunday AM and had a Monday AM business meeting.....

I think the only time I've checked a bag since was when the UK imposed a single, small briefcase sized, carryon limit.
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When we were in Germany in '08, I was amazed to discover that it was ILLEGAL for truck drivers to be on the road on Sunday. If they were out in the middle of nowhere when "Sunday" hit, too bad -- they parked 'em and found a hotel.

This made driving on the autobahn a lot more fun, but I still marvel at that law's stupidity.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
So why don't you start an aviation business, at an airport? And I'm not talking about a hotel near an airport, but a for real FBO type business?
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Ah, now you've changed the subject, but it's a good change. Capitalism only works properly when unfettered, and any business on an airport is subject to so many government rules, regulations, and obstacles, that survival is problematic, even in a GOOD market.

I'm sure we can all list a hundred examples, but here's one from my old airport: My mechanic had a shop on the field for many years, and a loyal following. The "real" FBO was only interested in working on King Airs and up, my buddy worked only on bug-smashers like I fly, so everything worked great...

...until the big downturn in business in '09. Suddenly, the FBO was whining to the Airport Commission about the "unfair competition" from my buddy, who wasn't paying all the gummint-imposed fees, didn't have a (way more expensive) "business lease" on his hangar, hadn't had to prove insurance, etc.

So, they went after him, with both barrels. He struggled and fought -- and lost.

Result? Guess.

No, opening a business in that warped environment is crazy. Hotels/motels in Iowa were crazy enough for me -- glad to be out of THAT insane government-induced mess, too.
 
Tom-D said:
Most Pilots/owners will keep their aircraft maintained well enough that it isn't broke when they try to fly Saturday or Sunday.

If it does break when they fly on the weekends, they tie it down and call their A&P, on Monday they will get it repaired during the week, while the shippers and suppliers are open too.
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How about an avionics shop? Or a prop shop? It seems that these businesses -- dying, all -- would benefit greatly from performing their services when their customer base is most available.
 
Jay Honeck said:
How about an avionics shop? Or a prop shop? It seems that these businesses -- dying, all -- would benefit greatly from performing their services when their customer base is most available.
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Do you have to be there when your radio gets fixed? most shops will pull it and send it in anyway.
 
Tom-D said:
Do you have to be there when your radio gets fixed? most shops will pull it and send it in anyway.
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No, but I'm always amazed by the rigamarole involved with aircraft radios. Installing a radio in most panels is easier than installing a car stereo -- and Best Buy has college kids doing that. Yet aircraft radio installations in our certificated antiques are seen as some sort of magical thing that requires all sorts of gummint intervention.

Which is why I've always installed "slide-in" replacements for my radios, incidentally. If it can't be slid into the existing tray, it doesn't get my $$$.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Ah, now you've changed the subject, but it's a good change. Capitalism only works properly when unfettered, and any business on an airport is subject to so many government rules, regulations, and obstacles, that survival is problematic, even in a GOOD market.

I'm sure we can all list a hundred examples, but here's one from my old airport: My mechanic had a shop on the field for many years, and a loyal following. The "real" FBO was only interested in working on King Airs and up, my buddy worked only on bug-smashers like I fly, so everything worked great...

...until the big downturn in business in '09. Suddenly, the FBO was whining to the Airport Commission about the "unfair competition" from my buddy, who wasn't paying all the gummint-imposed fees, didn't have a (way more expensive) "business lease" on his hangar, hadn't had to prove insurance, etc.

So, they went after him, with both barrels. He struggled and fought -- and lost.

Result? Guess.

No, opening a business in that warped environment is crazy. Hotels/motels in Iowa were crazy enough for me -- glad to be out of THAT insane government-induced mess, too.
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Ah, OK.

So you haven't attempted one of these type businesses, but yet you now profess you have the solution to fix their sagging business?? :dunno:

Sorry, I've been there/done that. Sundays were always losers. When I had my business we eventually went to Sunday "by appointment only" and it was seldom utilized. Most people have other activities to spend their Sundays on, and being at the airport wasn't one of them.

The FBO at the field where my business was also took Sundays at a loss. Oh they would get the weekend flyers coming in, drinking their free coffee and eating the free donuts. These guys would hang out, go to the local restaurant (use the courtesy car) to eat then come back, hop in their planes and leave. No fuel sales, nothing.

You can't call it a business unless you're selling something.
 
Jay Honeck said:
No, but I'm always amazed by the rigamarole involved with aircraft radios. Installing a radio in most panels is easier than installing a car stereo -- and Best Buy has college kids doing that. Yet aircraft radio installations in our certificated antiques are seen as some sort of magical thing that requires all sorts of gummint intervention.

Which is why I've always installed "slide-in" replacements for my radios, incidentally. If it can't be slid into the existing tray, it doesn't get my $$$.
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IOWs you do not know what preventive maintenance is?

FAR 43 A para (c) item (31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

You can do it ................. even on Sunday..
 
Jay Honeck said:
No, but I'm always amazed by the rigamarole involved with aircraft radios.
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The routine usually goes like this :

(Sunday) Damn radio doesn't work, Ill pull it and have it bench checked on Monday.

(Tuesday) I picked up the radio, they said it was good to go, for $100 minimum fee.

(Wednesday) So I put back in and it still doesn't work, So, I'll drop the plane off at the shop.

(Thursday) I picked up the Aircraft, bill was $250.00 for trouble shooting testing and changing the fuse.

(Saturday) Damn radio blew a fuse again.
 
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