Close call

orange

orange

Line Up and Wait
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Mar 23, 2014
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807
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Pennsylvania
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Display name:
Orange
My 12 y/o daughter got a new camera a couple of weeks ago that she wanted to break in so we decided to go flying from Farmingdale (FRG) to the Hudson corridor in a Cherokee 160. Preflight was normal, both tanks full, fuel was good.

This morning (Saturday 9am), FRG was the busiest that I have ever seen. So many planes for takeoff, it was almost an hour wait from the ready to taxi to takeoff. I was not cleared to leave the ramp because there was no space on TWY B and run-up for RWY 1. After 20-30 minutes, I was cleared to taxi and run-up. After the run-up, there was another 20-25 minute waiting holding short for TO (I was #6 or 7 if you count both sides). Everything was normal on the run-up. I departed FRG to the southwest towards Jones Beach and the LI shoreline. I maintained about 1000 until I got close to JFK Bravo, and descended to 400 and called JFK Tower. They are using 31's so they could not clear any higher. No prob, done it many times before.

I got through (under) the Bravo with no issues. As I went full power and started climbing around Coney Island and with Verrazano ahead of me, the engine started running rough and I heard a loud metal on metal clink ever few seconds. It was running pretty rough, the whole plane was shaking. I was at 2350-2400 the whole time but when I went full power to climb, it dropped to just under 2000. I thought maybe it was carb ice, so I put in the carb heat. It the RPM dropped about 50 more (expected) but didn't get any better after a minute or two. It was too cold (44*) and only 30% humidity to ice up but I thought I would give it a shot. I switched tanks, no change. I was barely climbing at 100-200 fpm. I thought the engine would go any minute. Oil and fuel pressures was in the green. Oil temp too. I was out of things to try. Only the RPM was down and the metal clinking sounds that were abnormal.

I wasn't sure that I could climb enough to clear the bridge and there is no place to even consider landing past Verrazano that wouldn't be water, filled with cars, or filled with tourists. So I made a pretty steep right 360 towards Brooklyn (instead of left over the water) as I was only at 700-800. And started heading back towards JFK Bravo. I had just finished talking to them, so I told them that I turned around due to engine trouble and heading back to FRG. She gave me a new squak code and let me stay up to 1000, instead of the 500. She asked the usual "# of souls on board". That's always so creepy. At one point, I though about declaring and turning towards JFK 4L which was a mere 2.2 miles away and directly at my 9 o'clock. But I figured worse comes to worst, I will put it down on the beach (or one of the several large parking lots by the beach since I noticed they were mostly empty as we were heading west.)

I kept chugging along with a clicking sounds and rough engine at full power just to keep my speed (90) and altitude 1000. I turned off the carb heat to squeeze every last RPM out of the thing since it wasn't carb ice. Abeam Jones Beach Monument, I called FRG tower and they already knew I was coming in (JFK tower called them and let them know that I was coming, very nice of them, I appreciated it). I was cleared straight in for RWY 1. He got everybody out of the way and I was cleared to land around the inner shore. It was a 5 mile final over land with few viable landing options, so I sacrificed a little speed and gained about 500-600 feet just in case.

As we landed, the rescue trucks were waiting at the end edge of the taxiway. Taxied back to the flight school that I rent from and one of the trucks parralled us on the service road. When I parked the truck came over and one of the guys came out and asked for my PPL and medical. He wrote it all down, said he needed it for the report. I gotta admit that my kndees were a little wobbly afterwards. I'm usually pretty calm and collected but it rattled me. But nothing bad. I asked my daughter afterwards if she was nervous as she herad everything, but she said no because she looked at me and I'didn't look nervous, so she went back to reading her book. LOL

Including training, I've had 110 flights with no issues, so I was due. I'm glad the engine held together and all turned out to be nothing. I don't know if the tower might have declared for me because I didn't and the rescue guy needed my info. I heard it's for their records once they mobilize a rescue truck. I'm told that I should expect a call from FAA about what happened. Any ideas/suggestions when it comes to that?

EDIT: Upon inspection, the mechanics found a cracked cylinder head.
 
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First of all, good job getting back on the ground without any damage or injuries.

But I have never had to show my medical and certificate to rescue folks. They all just used the N number.

Don't forget to let us know what the problem was with the plane.
 
Glad you're OK,

Have you ever landed on a beach before? I'd probably have landed JFK, unplanned off airport landing < holding up JFK a little.
 
I know of a guy who lost power and passed up a good runway for a better one. It killed him. Glad your fate was better, but you might want to reconsider some things, like flying low over water in a single engine plane.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
I know of a guy who lost power and passed up a good runway for a better one. It killed him. Glad your fate was better, but you might want to reconsider some things, like flying low over water in a single engine plane.

dtuuri
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Agreed on not passing up a sure thing, Not so much on the single engine paranoia.
 
I'd have landed JFK too. You wouldn't have held them up much.
But otherwise, good job keeping your cool.
 
Also agree if JFK was the closest airport land there! You were lucky w/ an engine problem like that. Land ASAP at the nearest airport, field, beach etc. Man you had your daughter onboard. What if you crashed and survived, and she didn't? Not trying to freak you out but give you something to think about if it were to happen again. Let us know what was wrong with the plane if you get a chance.
 
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In my case always got my Edos, might not be pretty though depending on chop.

But still the single engine paranoia is a little silly.
 
Excellent job Orange!!! I will freely admit, I would have declared and went into JFK, but I am a self declared risk averse pilot. I am glad it worked out. Let us know what it was when you find out.
 
Thanks all. You are all right, I should have declared and headed for JFK. Now that I had a chance to about it more calmly, it was a stupid move to try to force another 12-13 nm when safety was 2.2 nm away. I will find out this coming week what they find with the engine.
 
Tell them the plane is in the shop and you don't know what happened. Along with what you wrote.
 
I'd expect you'll be fine with the FSDO, just say what you said here, I'd wager a beer and a buck you'll be fine.
 
Orange, thanks for sharing your story. I'm a pretty green pilot and I'd like to think that I would've put it down on the first available patch, but that's easy to say sitting here in my living room. I do know that if I ever face a similar situation, having read your post will help me make a decision.
Lee
 
If you want some "insurance" and it's not a bad idea anyway, get with a CFI and review the whole thing (not here on a forum) including the decision to go 12 miles away, and be ready to tell FAA you've already done a debrief and an hour of ground with your CFI, considering your daughter was on board and you were concerned for both of your safety.

Can't hurt. They're probably going to want to see a safety and learning attitude anyway. Might as well get a head start.
 
I heard your plane on the radio today. I was in 365WD, the Cirrus that was told to keep my speed up for you. Glad everything worked out today. It was a madhouse at FRG.
 
Glad you got down safely.

Any word on what was broken?
 
You done good, and if every move wasn't perfect, you still handled it well enough. You'll learn from it, and do as well or better next time.

One thing, maybe - be in charge regarding ATC - You are telling them what you've decided to do, and not/not asking permission. They don't pick altitudes, headings, or airports for you - you make those calls in an emergency. Let 'em know, as time and situation permits, of course.
 
regardless of the go to JFK or not which we could all piggy back and forth for days, only you were the one up there in control, whatever reason it be you made the decision which seemed best to you given the factors. Now that it's done review it yourself and decide next time what you did well or could have done better! Glad it all worked out okay and I'm curious to hear what happened. As for the FAA phone call, I've had several emergencies and not once was I asked to show my medical or license so that's odd (but like others have said maybe a thing the rescue department on your field just does) and never once was I called or contacted by the FAA. You didn't do anything wrong so there's no reason to be concerned for the call if they do call. But may I recommend as I've always done, if you have an emergency I'd fill out a NASA report, helps in the collection of data and improvement in our field.
 
Question, if JFK hadn't have been JFK, but had been done municipal strip, would you have landed there, or still continued on? There are many valid reasons why, as PIC, you might decide to keep going, but not wanting to inconvenience the folks at JFK isn't one of them. As much as some airline pilots are big ********s, they're still pilots. And I'd like to believe all of them would rather wait an extra 15 than hear about you and your daughter hitting a bridge.

Other than that, it sounds like you did all the right things, kept flying the plane and troubleshooting. Good job by you and ATC.

timwinters said:
Ahhhh...PoA...where the chumps come out to kick someone when they're down.
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Not sure why the OP would be "down," since everything worked out ok. I'm also not sure why you think he posted the story, but I assume it was to discuss it and get other's opinions.
 
Nobody hurt and nothing wrong with the airplane other than something internal to the engine, the FAA is not likely to be concerned. Good job.
 
Lindberg said:
Not sure why the OP would be "down," since everything worked out ok. I'm also not sure why you think he posted the story, but I assume it was to discuss it and get other's opinions.
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There's a far cry between support/opinion/constructive criticism vs. arrogant chest thumping telling the OP that he's a dumbazz for not doing it the way I would have...being the far superior pilot that I am.

Many responses are chest thumping.

Sorry if I think that's uncalled for.

But, hey, it's the Internet and we all think we have carte blanche to be complete jerks here...right?
 
I certainly hope not Tim, that's what the Red board is for; I come here for relief from that. I can certainly imagine how strong the desire to get back to home base is which probably accounts for the decision to head home. Fortunately, have not had to experience it yet. Glad this turned out well.

greg
 
timwinters said:
There's a far cry between support/opinion/constructive criticism vs. arrogant chest thumping telling the OP that he's a dumbazz for not doing it the way I would have...being the far superior pilot that I am.

Many responses are chest thumping.

Sorry if I think that's uncalled for.

But, hey, it's the Internet and we all think we have carte blanche to be complete jerks here...right?
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I didn't see any chest thumping here Tim, this forum also isn't for coddling people, besides who would want people to mindlessly agree with them, I think one of the main reasons people post on sites like this is to get constructive criticism and opinions on past events. After all that's how we grow as people and become better pilots.

Heck that's how we grow as people and become better pilots, that's a good thing
 
I just don't see how some of the original responses were in any way productive...rather just annoyingly obtuse.

But maybe that's just me.
 
timwinters said:
I just don't see how some of the original responses were in any way productive...rather just annoyingly obtuse.

But maybe that's just me.
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Only thing anyone questioned was not landing at JFK, which would have been a good call.

Aside from that it all was "glad you're OK" and "ever find out what happened to the engine"

Nothing obtuse in my opinion
 
Thanks for sharing your story and I'm glad you guys made it back safe. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and most of us (including yourself) see the benefit of heading straight to JFK.
I certainly have learned from you sharing your experience as have others so once again thanks for sharing.
 
Threads like this is why I come here, to work out scenarios before they happen.

I have 75 hrs of flight time as of today. So, I have a lot to learn.
 
Glad everything turned out for the better.
Good to see when the pressure is on, you start troubleshooting and not panic.

Thanks for posting this.
 
Don't be hard on yourself, Orange. You did a bunch of things right, and in the end of the day, you landed safely.
 
Strange that there's any arguing in this thread at all… it seems like everyone (the OP included) agrees that (in retrospect) declaring and landing at JFK would have been the smart move.

I think the real benefit to these kinds of posts is that they get us all thinking about flying safely, and what we could do if we found ourselves in such a situation. My first thought when I read the thread was also: "Declare and land at JFK as soon as possible… you aren't asking for permission, you're telling them where you're going". But, it can feel a lot different when you are in the air.

I'm darn glad to hear that the OP is okay, and I'm glad he shared this story with all of us!
 
RyanShort1 said:
Doubt this has anything to do with it @orange , but any chance you left the primer unlocked?
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No. I had a 30 minute waiting holding short for takeoff (stuck in one spot due to jet blocking the taxiway waitimg for his IFR release), so I checked and re-check the takeoff checklist 2 or 3 times. I'm sure it was locked.
 
Thanks for ALL opinions, criticisms, suggestions, ideas, encouragement, etc. I posted this to get all kinds of opinions. I am a New Yorker, I don't get flustered easily, I can take any criticism, constructive or otherwise. I'm kind of criticizing myself a little now too about what was the smarter thing to do. Just because it ended well doesn't mean it was the smarter choice. I wanted a discussion like this, so it's good. There are already a couple pilots who have said this would help them. That's great. Hearing some of your opinions has also helped me with my decision making.

Like I already admitted, if I had to do it over, I'd probably gone for JFK. I wasn't itimidated by JFK (although it would've been funny hearing "Emirates Super break off final for the one-leggged bugsmasher dragging his ass towards the runway"). This will sound stupid, but I was more intimidated by the water between me and JFK. For some reason, when looking at the runway, all I could see was water leading up to it. I'm deathly afraid of water. I was very low, about 1000 at my highest point on the way back. If my engine quit as I was over the water or even before I'd be in real trouble, I don't think I can glide 2 miles from 800-900 feet.

Also, if anybody wants to hear the audio from ATC Live archives from 3/19/16 @ 14:30-15:00 (at 0:00 you can catch me going west, then 16:00 is my first contact with JFK after I turned around). N818VT
 
There are a number of feeds for JFK... 4 different towers and several departure feeds.

If you can state specifically which feed it is, I'll post up the link so others can listen without digging for it.
 
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