Clock requirement

denverpilot said:
So the summary is: Everyone has an opinion, and the smartest thing to do is get the clock fixed or replace it. If you don't, you're at the mercy of interpretation of far too many regs that may or may not be contradictory, depending on who's is bigger in any particular OAT range. (Shrinkage!) In the mean-time the standard in-op sticker and logbook entry are prudent for this $5 Cessna POS. :D :D
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Read 91.205, the Hammerstrand decision linked above, and the section of 8900.1 posted by R&W. Then see if anyone besides R&W thinks it's legal to fly a plane under IFR minus items required by 91.205(d).
 
All I know is that I LOVE the ORIGINAL 8 day clock in my '58 182. It tells me something very important everytime I get in the plane, get buckled up and get ready for start up.

And that is...

...if it ain't runnin' then it's tellin' me that been too long since I last flew!
 
Ron Levy said:
No twist -- it's just what I said originally -- no installed, working clock, -> no legal IFR, even in VMC. You still saying otherwise, or are you now saying you never said that?
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Your comprehension skills are about as good as your "interpretations".

You do have a propensity to "cherry pick" the parts that you agree with and disregard the ones that you don't.

I've wasted enough time on this, yet another one of your inane diatribes.
 
dmccormack said:
Where is a "Stall horn" listed as required equipment?
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Was it certified with a stall horn? One of my airplanes was and would be unairworthy if it weren't present and functioning AFaIK. The other wasn't and is perfectly legal without one.
 
"The clock stopped working right before I landed."
 
gismo said:
Then why is it off by 5 hours and 47 minutes???
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"I keep my clock set to <insert strange timezone here> because <insert implausible purpose for keeping clock set to Azores Standard Time> so it's only 13 minutes off"
 
gismo said:
Then why is it off by 5 hours and 47 minutes???
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I had it set to another time zone (UTC?) and it took me exactly 47 minutes to fly back to the airport as soon as I saw it stop functioning. I'm lucky that I keep it my scan, otherwise I could have been flying illegally for who knows how long.
 
gismo said:
Then why is it off by 5 hours and 47 minutes???
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"I started turning the hands to set it, but then I noticed the second hand wasn't moving."

or

"What makes you think it's off by five hours and 47 minutes? The display is blank."
 
dmccormack said:
Has anyone, at any time, been questioned about a clock by an FAA representative or Law Enforcement immediately after a flight?
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No, but the DPE on my IFR practical wanted to see the log entries for the digital clock in the 172 panel.
 
Hi, new guy here, and this requirement is important to me. Do we have an agreement of what qualifies here?

This is my set up in a Piper Warrior for IFR:
1. removed clock in upper left hand position for new indicator
2. moved GTX327 transponder to lower center stack.
3. fly with Timer Mode (hrs:min:sec) visible in GTX at all times for approaches, turns etc....

Am I IFR legal? I have a clock, and a log entry showing a proper installation of the GTX which is my new digital clock.

Thanks gang !!

Lima
 
LimaBravo said:
Hi, new guy here, and this requirement is important to me. Do we have an agreement of what qualifies here?

This is my set up in a Piper Warrior for IFR:
1. removed clock in upper left hand position for new indicator
2. moved GTX327 transponder to lower center stack.
3. fly with Timer Mode (hrs:min:sec) visible in GTX at all times for approaches, turns etc....

Am I IFR legal? I have a clock, and a log entry showing a proper installation of the GTX which is my new digital clock.
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Does your digital timer in your transponder also display actual time (e.g., so you can tell when you get to your EFC)? If not, I believe the FAA will say it's only a timer, not a clock, and doesn't meet the rule. Since AFS-350 is responsible for AC 20-94A which governs this area, I recommend asking them before you rely on the timer in your transponder to meet this requirement. Note that the FAR requires a "clock," not a timer, which implies knowing what time it is, and despite its name, your timer doesn't tell "time."
 
Good point Ron! I also have a 430W. Obviously the transponder does not have a clock feature, so I would come back with using the clock in the 430W and the Timer in the GTX327.
This setup also offers a feature-full combination that could be used in IFR compliance:
1. timer and clock in 430W
2. Timer and clock in 430, and timer in GTX327
What do you think, would I then be compliant with the regs?
 
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LimaBravo said:
Good point Ron! Obviously the transponder does not have a clock feature, so I would come back with using the clock in the 430W and the Timer in the GTX327. Would I then be compliant with the regs?
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You'd have to ask AFS-350 to be sure, but I would say not, since you'd have to go to the AUX chapter of the 430 to get to the clock time, and then you're losing your nav data. Really -- you should ask them, since it is a potential issue if the FAA gets involved.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs300/afs350/
 
but the NAV data that you're supposed to be following should be ported from the 430 to the CDI so you're not losing nav data when you switch to the AUX page on the 430 display.
 
tonycondon said:
but the NAV data that you're supposed to be following should be ported from the 430 to the CDI so you're not losing nav data when you switch to the AUX page on the 430 display.
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You are if you're using the 430 as a DME sub, say, for holding at a DME fix. But as I said, since this just isn't clearly covered in the AC, a call to AFS-350 seems the wisest course -- the FAA just isn't big on forgiveness vs permission.
 
Thanks Ron! I was just curious as to the POA membership general interpretation of the rule as it relates to using GPS, Transponder, et al... to meet the IFR clock rule.

The group here is very knowledgeable, and I enjoy reading the posts. Enough in fact to finally join and participate.

Anyway, I do have a letter off to AFS-350 for an interpretation of the rule as it relates to this exact set up. That way, if it is satisfactory, I'll have a hard copy on board! :) Hopefully the reply won't take too long and I can post it here to assist with the general opinion.

@Tony, agreed. The TSO for the 430W does state that &quot;Nav data is displayed on an external, panel mounted, CDI&quot; ... but then again, you may need to be on a certain nav page for information relating to a certain segment of the route, approach, or other... Although I have never read anywhere that you must display certain information other than that on the CDI.

Thanks again!
Lima
 
LimaBravo said:
Anyway, I do have a letter off to AFS-350 for an interpretation of the rule as it relates to this exact set up.
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If you ask for an "interpretation" of the regulation (91.205), they may have to send that on to the Chief Counsel and you'll have to wait four months for an answer. I suggest starting with a phone call just asking if what you have complies with the AC, which they can tell you. If they need to get a Chief Counsel interpretation, they'll tell you that, and then you can send the letter.
 
Just spoke with AFS-350 in Washington DC for quite a while. They were quick to respond and very nice! Thanks to Ron for identifying the correct FAA branch to contact. The phone number is on the AFS350 website.

Basically it came down to this....

Any installed clock that is TSO'd, or part of a TSO'd piece of equipment, meets the requirement for an IFR clock if it can display hrs:min:secs.

Since the 430W is IFR approved, TSO'd, and has a clock with hrs:min:sec, it meets the requirements under FAR 91.205 (d)(3)(6) and additionally AC 20-94A.

If in doubt, call the number. They WILL let you know.
 
Yea, thanks again Ron.
I never imagined Wash DC would call me back in less than 90 minutes and cheerfully fill me in on the regs, along with how my airplane relates to them.
I'd still caution everyone to call and make sure they get an answer specific to their equipment before removing your old (insert crappy model clock here). Now I gotta go find something else to talk about! LoL
 
LimaBravo said:
I never imagined Wash DC would call me back in less than 90 minutes and cheerfully fill me in on the regs, along with how my airplane relates to them.
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98% of the folks in the FAA are good eggs and happy to help. It's the other 2% who (as just about everywhere else in life) ruin the reputations of the other 98%.
 
Ron Levy said:
98% of the folks in the FAA are good eggs and happy to help. It's the other 2% who (as just about everywhere else in life) ruin the reputations of the other 98%.
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I'll go along with that. The FAA folks I've dealt with (small number) in technical areas (fellow EMC engineer) and medical (NW Regional) have been fantastic. I hope to maintain that track record.
 
Did I mention that we simply replaced our dead clock? ;)

(Just keeping this crazy dog of a thread alive. It's been fun!)
 
LimaBravo said:
Just spoke with AFS-350 in Washington DC for quite a while. They were quick to respond and very nice! Thanks to Ron for identifying the correct FAA branch to contact. The phone number is on the AFS350 website.

Basically it came down to this....

Any installed clock that is TSO'd, or part of a TSO'd piece of equipment, meets the requirement for an IFR clock if it can display hrs:min:secs.

Since the 430W is IFR approved, TSO'd, and has a clock with hrs:min:sec, it meets the requirements under FAR 91.205 (d)(3)(6) and additionally AC 20-94A.

If in doubt, call the number. They WILL let you know.
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What does TSO stand for?
 
ajstoner21 said:
What does TSO stand for?
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I'm glad you asked, but I was shocked that an AGI/IGI wouldn't know that one.

Note the next time you're looking at just about any aviation magazine, note which avionics vendors say they're TSO'ed and which ones aren't.

It's more complex than this, but basically TSO'ed gear goes on normally certificated ("manufactured") aircraft, non-TSO gear typically goes on homebuilts.

Example:

Dynon Avionics:
http://www.dynonavionics.com/

vs.

Aspen Avionics:
http://www.aspenavionics.com/

Also note price tags...
 
denverpilot said:
I'm glad you asked, but I was shocked that an AGI/IGI wouldn't know that one.

Note the next time you're looking at just about any aviation magazine, note which avionics vendors say they're TSO'ed and which ones aren't.

It's more complex than this, but basically TSO'ed gear goes on normally certificated ("manufactured") aircraft, non-TSO gear typically goes on homebuilts.

Example:

Dynon Avionics:
http://www.dynonavionics.com/

vs.

Aspen Avionics:
http://www.aspenavionics.com/

Also note price tags...
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You can have non TSO'd equipment in part 91 certified aircraft.
 
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