Clock requirement

[denverpilot]

Okey dokey... just for fun.

The airplane has to have a clock for IFR per 91.205.

And most Cessna clocks died 10 or 20 years ago. Not to mention they're pieces of... ummm... eight. :wink2:

Renters: How do you deal with it?

Owners: What do you replace crappy Cessna factory clocks with in the panel? (Or is yours dead too? Shh. We won't tell.)

I have timers out the wazoo on board (there's at least four devices I can time things with in the "stuff" I have on-board or is already in the airplane)... and one of them is prominently strapped to the yoke in front of me, so that's not the problem.

Mostly I'm just curious about whether or not I have to fix the stupid Cessna clock prior to taking a checkride in the bird. I've seen digital replacements, and fancy stuff to fill that hole if we had the old one yanked, but ... really?

I could really care less about the dumb thing, it's in an awful location on our panel to be involved in a normal scan anyway.

 

[dmccormack]

I satisfied the clock requirement in a POS rental C172 for the IR Practical test with a stick-on type.

 

[denverpilot]

One CFI joked, "It says you have to have a clock, it doesn't specify it has to be working."

LOL!

Not sure that's right, but it was funny!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I satisfied the clock requirement in a POS rental C172 for the IR Practical test with a stick-on type.

Hmm. Might have worked for that particular DE, but I wonder if the FAA would call that "Permanently Installed".

 

[Greg Bockelman]

One CFI joked, "It says you have to have a clock, it doesn't specify it has to be working."

LOL!

Not sure that's right, but it was funny!

Hmm. I think I am about to sound like Ron.

If it is installed it has to work.

 

[steingar]

The Freebird came with a wind-up clock that can be run for a week on one wind. YOu can have one installed. Don't know how much it costs. But if you have to have it...

Personally, I don't think anyone should gripe about it. What I need to spend on my aircraft to make it IFR certifiable is far more than what you'd spend on a clock.

 

[JeffDG]

Lots of panel-mount GPSs have clocks integrated into them, and they meet the requirements of 91.205.

 

[rpadula]

Hmm. I think I am about to sound like Ron.

If it is installed it has to work.

Or placard it as "inop" if it doesn't. :wink2:

 

[dmccormack]

Hmm. Might have worked for that particular DE, but I wonder if the FAA would call that "Permanently Installed".

That's why I stuck it on the panel and marked the windup one INOP.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That's why I stuck it on the panel and marked the windup one INOP.

I still don't think that would pass muster with the FAA.

 

[kgruber]

Hmm. I think I am about to sound like Ron.

If it is installed it has to work.

It would. Twice a day!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Lots of panel-mount GPSs have clocks integrated into them, and they meet the requirements of 91.205.

Hmm. Got a reference for that? I seem to recall something different. And the unit would have do display seconds also. Not sure all of them do.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It would. Twice a day!

Smart ***

 

[JeffDG]

Hmm. Got a reference for that? I seem to recall something different. And the unit would have do display seconds also. Not sure all of them do.

Nope...but if it has a clock with seconds, well...it's a clock, and it's installed. I don't think I've seen a requirement that it be visible at all times (so an AUX screen would be OK). I'm quite willing to be corrected, but it seems that a GPS, provided it has a screen that displays a clock including seconds, would fulfill the minimum requirements for IFR.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Nope...but if it has a clock with seconds, well...it's a clock, and it's installed. I don't think I've seen a requirement that it be visible at all times (so an AUX screen would be OK). I'm quite willing to be corrected, but it seems that a GPS, provided it has a screen that displays a clock including seconds, would fulfill the minimum requirements for IFR.

But would it be displayed on a screen that you would need for navigation for the approach? And does it display seconds? I think that is part of the issue. I can see it MAYBE if there are two GPS's installed, but on a single unit, unless the time was displayed on the navigation screens...

I have ZERO experience with GA GPS's so I don't know how they display. But I seem to recall from somewhere that the clock in the GPS couldn't count for 91.205

 

[John Collins]

Off hand, I don't see why you couldn't use a clock displayed on the GPS screen such as a Garmin 430 or 530, as it is installed in the aircraft, has a digital second readout, and you don't need to be looking at the Map screen while executing an approach or any other maneuver for that matter. It is also accurate to something close to a billionth of a second.

 

[steingar]

I'll bet money that there's an FAA "interpretation" that the blame thing has to visible all the time.

 

[TMetzinger]

I don't think the standard clock/oat/voltmeter in the recent steam Cessnas displays seconds in it's normal mode. There is a stopwatch mode, however.

I used a timer on my checkride, but there was a clock in the airplane. And the timer function on the G1000 Cessnas which don't have another clock isn't normally in view either.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I'll bet money that there's an FAA "interpretation" that the blame thing has to visible all the time.

Thing is, it HAS to be visible during approaches or it defeats the purpose of having a clock.

 

[CJones]

There is a clock (with seconds) in the corner of the display of the Dynon D-10. There is also a count-up/count-down option built in to the GTX327.

These were the only clocks I had in the plane when I did my IR checkride in the RV.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Just put one of the suction cup instrument covers on the old clock and tell the examiner that you are demonstrating partial panel ability. :wink2:

 

[poadeleted20]

Owners: What do you replace crappy Cessna factory clocks with in the panel?

Mine's a Grumman, but the same issue existed. I put in a Davtron M800.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/m800DigitalClock.php
Then I did the same in my next Grumman.
Then I did the same in my next Grumman.

Get the picture?

Mostly I'm just curious about whether or not I have to fix the stupid Cessna clock prior to taking a checkride in the bird.

The regulation as interpreted by the FAA requires that the clock be "installed" to be IFR-legal Dan's experience is only the result of a DPE who either didn't know or didn't care about the rule.

I've seen digital replacements, and fancy stuff to fill that hole if we had the old one yanked, but ... really?

Yes, really. See Administrator v. Hammerstrand, and look at the top of page 7.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3739.PDF

 

[poadeleted20]

One CFI joked, "It says you have to have a clock, it doesn't specify it has to be working."

LOL!

Not sure that's right, but it was funny!

It was not right, and for that reason, I don't find it funy coming from a CFI. See the case linked above.

 

[poadeleted20]

Lots of panel-mount GPSs have clocks integrated into them, and they meet the requirements of 91.205.

There's a question about that, regarding whether the clock can be displayed during an approach, and whether it's in the pilot's "primary field of view" (many times the GPS box in the main avionics stack isn't). Make sure you know the answer for the installation in your plane before betting your ticket on that.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's why I stuck it on the panel and marked the windup one INOP.

Per 91.213(d) and 91.205(d), you would not be IFR-legal that way. An operable, installed clock is required, and the velcro'd one doesn't meet the regulatory requirement.

 

[JeffDG]

There's a question about that, regarding whether the clock can be displayed during an approach, and whether it's in the pilot's "primary field of view" (many times the GPS box in the main avionics stack isn't). Make sure you know the answer for the installation in your plane before betting your ticket on that.

My dumb-as-nails question is: Does the installed clock need to be in the pilot's field of view?

Yes, there is a clock inside the GPS that does seconds. So could that satisfy the "installed clock" requirement of the FAR, while the stick-on on the yoke is the one you actually use.

Honestly I'm doing angels-on-a-pinhead thought experiments here...

 

[JeffDG]

Per 91.213(d) and 91.205(d), you would not be IFR-legal that way. An operable, installed clock is required, and the velcro'd one doesn't meet the regulatory requirement.

Now, if the wind-up one worked, but you just never wound it, and used the velcro'd one, would that be legal?

 

[Lawreston]

Is your clock really "crap," or is there another problem? Mine(in 1971 Skyhawk) didn't work for about six months. It turned out to be on the same circuit breaker as the hobbs(if I recall correctly) and the hobbs wasn't working, either. New circuit breaker -- hobbs and clock then were no longer snafu.

HR

 

[RotorAndWing]

I satisfied the clock requirement in a POS rental C172 for the IR Practical test with a stick-on type.

Hmm. Might have worked for that particular DE, but I wonder if the FAA would call that "Permanently Installed".

That's why I stuck it on the panel and marked the windup one INOP.

I still don't think that would pass muster with the FAA.

The regulation as interpreted by the FAA requires that the clock be "installed" to be IFR-legal Dan's experience is only the result of a DPE who either didn't know or didn't care about the rule.

Per 91.213(d) and 91.205(d), you would not be IFR-legal that way. An operable, installed clock is required, and the velcro'd one doesn't meet the regulatory requirement.

Since this was for a Practical exam (Instrument) and if the aircraft was not operated under actual IMC, and the instrument was properly placarded and the correct entry was placed in the logbook stating so, then there is no problem doing what Dan said.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Since this was for a Practical exam (Instrument) and if the aircraft was not operated under actual IMC, and the instrument was properly placarded and the correct entry was placed in the logbook stating so, then there is no problem doing what Dan said.

Point taken, but still...

 

[poadeleted20]

My dumb-as-nails question is: Does the installed clock need to be in the pilot's field of view...

As I understand it, yes. And it's "primary field of view," as defined by some AC.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since this was for a Practical exam (Instrument) and if the aircraft was not operated under actual IMC, and the instrument was properly placarded and the correct entry was placed in the logbook stating so, then there is no problem doing what Dan said.

The conditions of flight are irrelevant. If it was done under IFR, it wouldn't matter if it was under IMC or VMC. And this is specifically addressed in FAA Order 8900.1, as R&W should know.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The conditions of flight are irrelevant. If it was done under IFR, it wouldn't matter if it was under IMC or VMC. And this is specifically addressed in FAA Order 8900.1, as R&W should know.

Typically an Instrument checkride is conducted in VMC conditions. Typically if radar services are provided the aircraft is still operated under VFR.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Typically an Instrument checkride is conducted in VMC conditions. Typically if radar services are provided the aircraft is still operated under VFR.

Ron's point is that Typically the checkrides are operated on an IFR flight plan, at least in part, and therefore must meet the equipment requirements.

That is a point I didn't think of.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Ron's point is that Typically the checkrides are operated on an IFR flight plan, at least in part, and therefore must meet the equipment requirements.

That is a point I didn't think of.

The majority of checkrides (Instrument) that I've observed as well as given are done under VFR.

For the checkride to be done under IFR then the Examiner must assume PIC responsibilities because the applicant is not rated.

From 8900.2 :

Section 2. Conduct Practical Test/Certification Functions

10. Status of Examiners During Practical Tests. An examiner conducts a practical test to
observe and evaluate an applicant’s ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers required for
the certificate or rating sought. The examiner is not PIC of the aircraft during a practical test
unless the examiner agrees to act in that capacity by prior arrangement with the applicant. The
FAA strongly recommends that an examiner not agree to act as PIC of a flight during a practical
test.

Furthermore, 8900.1 says:

VOLUME 5 airman certification

CHAPTER 2 Title 14 CFR PART 61 CERTIFICATION OF PILOTS AND FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS

Section 9 Conduct an Instrument Rating Certification

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.


5-436 INSTRUMENTS REQUIRED FOR INSTRUMENT PILOT AIRPLANE RATING PRACTICAL TEST. Although appropriate flight instruments are considered to be those outlined in 14 CFR part 91 for flight under instrument flight rules (IFR), an applicant may elect to satisfy a portion of the instrument practical test in an airworthy aircraft that does not have all of the instruments required by part 91, § 91.205(d), such as a partial panel aircraft with only turn, slip, and airspeed indicators. However, the applicant will need an aircraft equipped in accordance with § 91.205(d) to complete the remaining required tasks for instrument certification. While it may be extremely difficult for the applicant to satisfactorily complete any portion of the instrument practical test with the limited flight instruments characterized by the partial panel, and while IFR flight plans cannot be filed, it is the applicant’s prerogative to attempt the test under these circumstances. Moreover, it must be emphasized to the applicant that performance standards will not be relaxed when an airplane is so equipped.

 

[chucky]

In the case of the private cert, at least, the applicant is PIC even though he or she is not rated to act as PIC with a passenger (the examiner). I always assumed the same applied to IFR operations for the instrument check ride. Is that not the case?

 

[RotorAndWing]

In the case of the private cert, at least, the applicant is PIC even though he or she is not rated to act as PIC with a passenger (the examiner). I always assumed the same applied to IFR operations for the instrument check ride. Is that not the case?

If one were to file an instrument flight plan for an examination, then the PIC would have to be listed on the flight plan, which would have to be the examiner.

During my time at the Academy we discussed Instrument checkrides and it was discouraged to conduct them in actual IFR.

 

[denverpilot]

Hmm. I think I am about to sound like Ron. If it is installed it has to work.

Tell that to my Autopilot. It's not exactly 100% in-op, but I'm pretty sure it'd do a great job of killing you in IMC. VMC, it's an interesting conversation piece.

"Let's see what it decides to do today! Anyone want to take bets?" LOL!

Personally, I don't think anyone should gripe about it. What I need to spend on my aircraft to make it IFR certifiable is far more than what you'd spend on a clock.

Point taken. Keeps it in perspective. Thanks.

Lots of panel-mount GPSs have clocks integrated into them, and they meet the requirements of 91.205.

No GPS on board in our bird. We're enjoying our steam gauges.

Is your clock really "crap," or is there another problem? Mine(in 1971 Skyhawk) didn't work for about six months. It turned out to be on the same circuit breaker as the hobbs(if I recall correctly) and the hobbs wasn't working, either. New circuit breaker -- hobbs and clock then were no longer snafu.

Understand. No, it's not the breaker and at least to my eyeball inspection, all the wiring is happy.

We did have a Hobbs go out last year, but it's unrelated. Kinda ****ed off my digital logging software too...

Last flight before replacing the Hobbs, the Hobbs didn't change (ha!) and then from the digital logbook's perspective, the next flight it went way backwards...

LogTen's a little grumpy about that to this day.

I have a ticket open with them about it, and they're concerned it's a different problem -- they say they have coded for that. I haven't had time to hunt for their other suspected problem (duplicated aircraft in the database) yet. It's on my to-do list.

Since this was for a Practical exam (Instrument) and if the aircraft was not operated under actual IMC, and the instrument was properly placarded and the correct entry was placed in the logbook stating so, then there is no problem doing what Dan said.

Ah-ha! I wondered how so many checkrides were happening without them. This helped get the light-bulb on. How'd I miss that? **Facepalm**

In the case of the private cert, at least, the applicant is PIC even though he or she is not rated to act as PIC with a passenger (the examiner). I always assumed the same applied to IFR operations for the instrument check ride. Is that not the case?

Yup, one of my favorite trivia questions... "How can a Student Pilot log PIC Instrument time without a CFII on board?"

But now I'm wandering off the topic of clocks. I do that.

Anyone replaced a clock and have something they like...? (Some of the STC'ed units are snazzy, but good lord, they're spendy for a stupid little clock!)

 

[Fearless Tower]

As I understand it, yes. And it's "primary field of view," as defined by some AC.

Reference please....most clocks I've seen aren't factory installed within the direct scan. In older a/c the flight and nav instruments could be found darn near anywhere on the panel.

 

[poadeleted20]

Reference please....most clocks I've seen aren't factory installed within the direct scan. In older a/c the flight and nav instruments could be found darn near anywhere on the panel.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll try to find the AC, but no guarantee.