Climd and Descent Rate

[Ventucky Red]

In the departure and arrival environment of your IFR flight, what is the standard (minimum) climb and descent rate?

I ask as we had class yesterday and this question spurred some spirited discussion? I just want to see what the general understanding is here...

Thanks

Ventucky

 

[Velocity173]

Minus pilots discretion, 500 FPM. Anything less, inform ATC.

 

[jordane93]

Not sure why there was a spirited debate. The AIM is pretty clear

“If at anytime the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC.”

AIM 4-4-10

 

[smv]

Not sure why there was a spirited debate. The AIM is pretty clear

“If at anytime the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC.”

AIM 4-4-10

Indeed... and if you do not advise them, they are likely to say something like "Cessna 68C be advised the MEA in that area is one zero thousand, nine hundred... Current altimeter is..." To which you reply, "We're trying! We will get there eventually."

 

[chemgeek]

Indeed... and if you do not advise them, they are likely to say something like "Cessna 68C be advised the MEA in that area is one zero thousand, nine hundred... Current altimeter is..." To which you reply, "We're trying! We will get there eventually."

Somewhere between UCA and CAM on a hot summer day, we were struggling to get to 9000 when I still had the old, tired, stock engine. ATC inquired about our lack of progress, to which I replied in my best Scottish brogue, "we're givin' her all's she's got cap'n!" We all got a good laugh out of that. My overhauled HC STC engine is less compromised in these conditions, and can usually maintain 500 fpm through 10,000 feet.

 

[frfly172]

Was asked once are you in a climb? After which I was given a vector to keep me out of trouble.

 

[smv]

Somewhere between UCA and CAM on a hot summer day, we were struggling to get to 9000 when I still had the old, tired, stock engine. ATC inquired about our lack of progress, to which I replied in my best Scottish brogue, "we're givin' her all's she's got cap'n!" We all got a good laugh out of that. My overhauled HC STC engine is less compromised in these conditions, and can usually maintain 500 fpm through 10,000 feet.

That is funny...

My example above was after departing KBZN and heading to ZUBLI 13 miles away. Shooting the gap of the Bozeman Pass can be a little spooky on a hot summer day.

 

[jordane93]

Indeed... and if you do not advise them, they are likely to say something like "Cessna 68C be advised the MEA in that area is one zero thousand, nine hundred... Current altimeter is..." To which you reply, "We're trying! We will get there eventually."

NY usually wants more than 500fpm. Normally they take us right over JFK so they want a steep climb and descent. In the descent, I don’t like to do more than 500fpm due to passenger comfort so I’ll usually just ask them for a vector so I can do the minimum descent.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the departure and arrival environment of your IFR flight, what is the standard (minimum) climb and descent rate?

I ask as we had class yesterday and this question spurred some spirited discussion? I just want to see what the general understanding is here...

Climb? Whatever I can do at a good cruise climb airspeed. Advise ATC upon not being able to do 500 fpm.

Desent? Usually 500 fpm, maybe 700, I only do more upon ATC request if I'm able... In the Mooney.

In the TBM, usually 1500 fpm. That keeps the cabin at under 500 fpm and the deck angle reasonable. I did do a practice emergency descent in it once that exceeded 8000 fpm. Fun!

 

[aterpster]

The minimum of 500 FPM (rate) is for ATC to plan separation. TERPs departure criteria is a minimum of 200 feet per mile (gradient) unless a higher gradient is stated on the departure procedure. Airways have even lower climb gradient requirements; if those can't be met with a higher MEA is specified for an airway segment, then an MCA must be established. It is important to understand MCA requirements in a poorly performing airplane.

 

[FastEddieB]

From the AIM:

When ATC has not used the term “AT PILOT’S DISCRETION” nor imposed any climb or descent restrictions, pilots should initiate climb or descent promptly on acknowledgement of the clearance. Descend or climb at an optimum rate consistent with the operating characteristics of the aircraft to 1,000 feet above or below the assigned altitude, and then attempt to descend or climb at a rate of between 500 and 1,500 fpm until the assigned altitude is reached. If at anytime the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC. If it is necessary to level off at an intermediate altitude during climb or descent, advise ATC, exceptwhen leveling off at 10,000 feet MSL on descent, or 2,500 feet above airport elevation (prior to entering a Class C or Class D surface area), when required for
speed reduction.

 

[luvflyin]

In the departure and arrival environment of your IFR flight, what is the standard (minimum) climb and descent rate?

I ask as we had class yesterday and this question spurred some spirited discussion? I just want to see what the general understanding is here...

Thanks

Ventucky

What kind of class was it? What were some of the things being said?

 

[Ventucky Red]

From the AIM:

When ATC has not used the term “AT PILOT’S DISCRETION” nor imposed any climb or descent restrictions, pilots should initiate climb or descent promptly on acknowledgement of the clearance. Descend or climb at an optimum rate consistent with the operating characteristics of the aircraft to 1,000 feet above or below the assigned altitude, and then attempt to descend or climb at a rate of between 500 and 1,500 fpm until the assigned altitude is reached. If at any time the pilot is unable to climb or descend at a rate of at least 500 feet a minute, advise ATC. If it is necessary to level off at an intermediate altitude during climb or descent, advise ATC, except when leveling off at 10,000 feet MSL on descent, or 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (prior to entering a Class C or Class D surface area), when required for
speed reduction.

Yeupppp thanks...

What kind of class was it? What were some of the things being said?

IFR Refresher Clinic... the question that was asked was what it minimum FPM for a climb and descent in the departure and approach enviroment.

 

[coma24]

Also, off the ground, plan for 200ft/nm, unless otherwise published on a DP or DVA until reaching the MIA.

 

[timwinters]

From the AIM:
<snip >
...except when leveling off at 10,000 feet MSL on descent, or 2,500 feet above airport elevation (prior to entering a Class C or Class D surface area), when required for
speed reduction.

I had to do that often in my 182. It is a straight-tail after all!

 

[aterpster]

Also, off the ground, plan for 200ft/nm, unless otherwise published on a DP or DVA until reaching the MIA.

Did you look at Table 15-3-1 in the TERPs page I posted? Of course, those values are to MEA, which may or may not be the same as the MIA.

 

[luvflyin]

Did you look at Table 15-3-1 in the TERPs page I posted? Of course, those values are to MEA, which may or may not be the same as the MIA.

Those are not just to MEA. They are from MEA to the next higher MEA. Starting out already at least 1000/2000 feet above the rocks is a whole different scenario from leaving the ground climbing to MEA/MIA

 

[aterpster]

Those are not just to MEA. They are from MEA to the next higher MEA. Starting out already at least 1000/2000 feet above the rocks is a whole different scenario from leaving the ground climbing to MEA/MIA

Correct. But, the lower MEA and higher MEA can be of substantial difference (such as V230 NE bound at FRA). There is a lot a pilot should know about airway climb gradient and when to leave the lower MEA to meet the MCA, and what minimum climb gradient is required after FRA if crossing FRA at MCA.

 

[aterpster]

Correct. But, the lower MEA and higher MEA can be of substantial difference (such as V230 NE bound at FRA). There is a lot a pilot should know about airway climb gradient and when to leave the lower MEA to meet the MCA, and what minimum climb gradient is required after FRA if crossing FRA at MCA.

And, leaving the ground to MEA is departure procedures, not airway procedures. This is often not taught well, if at all.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

For the maximum, I try to avoid more than 1,500 ft/min. I have gotten RAs before cause I was light and climbing like a bat out of hell. The plane leveled off at the assigned altitude, but because of the high rate of climb, we got an RA.

 

[Larry in TN]

For the maximum, I try to avoid more than 1,500 ft/min. I have gotten RAs before cause I was light and climbing like a bat out of hell. The plane leveled off at the assigned altitude, but because of the high rate of climb, we got an RA.

I find it quite annoying that now, 30 years after the introduction of TCAS, the FMS and autoflight systems on transport jets STILL fail to follow the AIM guidance on reducing the vertical speed to between 500 and 1,500 fpm for the last 1,000' of the climb or descent. In order to comply with the AIM recommendation, pilots must change out of VNAV and into the vertical speed mode then change back to VNAV after the altitude is captured. It makes for a lot of unnecessary "busy work" and presents several opportunities for error and subsequent mode confusion.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I find it quite annoying that now, 30 years after the introduction of TCAS, the FMS and autoflight systems on transport jets STILL fail to follow the AIM guidance on reducing the vertical speed to between 500 and 1,500 fpm for the last 1,000' of the climb or descent. In order to comply with the AIM recommendation, pilots must change out of VNAV and into the vertical speed mode then change back to VNAV after the altitude is captured. It makes for a lot of unnecessary "busy work" and presents several opportunities for error and subsequent mode confusion.

Hopefully as processing power increases, the software will catch up. It's not uncommon in our legacy (WAAS, non-NXi) G1000s to have the "TAWS Unavailable" annunciations and the synthetic vision go away for a few seconds - That's what it does when it runs out of power to compute everything it's trying to compute, and it's doing "dumb" computations for many of the items its computing - ETE is simply distance/groundspeed, FOD is gallons remaining - burn * ETE, etc... The descent isn't considered at all. Likewise, the VNAV descent rate is computed using current groundspeed, so when airspeed increases in the descent, it always has an increasing vertical speed and doesn't calculate things like reducing the descent rate for the last 1000 feet.

Now, in the G1000 NXi, we never have TAWS Unavailable or synthetic vision interruptions, things respond much faster... And I'd bet that it has enough power to do more difficult computations, should Garmin invest the time to develop the software accordingly.

 

[GMascelli]

Minus pilots discretion, 500 FPM. Anything less, inform ATC.

+1, keeps everyone on the same page.


One day climbing out of KFRG - Republic Airport located in Farmingdale NY.....

I soon launched and followed the Farmingdale Five departure. At four hundred feet, turn to a 010 heading and climb to three thousand for radar vectors to JFK. I was climbing like a home sick angel, as the late Bo Boggs (The Old Man) used to say, and still got the 'give me your best rate of climb" from approach. Ok, this is a Sundower and 1200 fpm is pretty good, I thought, but didn't comment.

 

[aterpster]

I find it quite annoying that now, 30 years after the introduction of TCAS, the FMS and autoflight systems on transport jets STILL fail to follow the AIM guidance on reducing the vertical speed to between 500 and 1,500 fpm for the last 1,000' of the climb or descent. In order to comply with the AIM recommendation, pilots must change out of VNAV and into the vertical speed mode then change back to VNAV after the altitude is captured. It makes for a lot of unnecessary "busy work" and presents several opportunities for error and subsequent mode confusion.

They don't follow the AIM guidance on holding either. This is significant enough in jet stream winds that the AIM now cautions about it; i.e, manual intervention might be necessary.