Climbing in flare

[bonefishpete]

Check the engine idle settings. Too high an idle will cause float. I liked to set it at bare minimum almost engine stall rpm on ground. Made a big difference.

 

[FastEddieB]

My CFI saying don't land, don't land, don't land until it just didn't have enough energy to fly.

My mantra was “Hold it off. Hold it off. KEEP holding it off…” ad nauseum. Under most circumstances in most light planes, the perfect landing was one where the yoke/stick hit the rear stop at the exact moment the mains plopped onto the ground. Rarely achieved in practice, but a worthy goal.

 

[ateamer]

So many people come in way too fast. 1.3 Vso is great for the start of final, but by the time you’re crossing the fence you aren’t going to be turning with enough bank angle to need that much cushion. In a plane like a 172 with a long fat wing and highly effective flaps, 1.2 Vso is more than fast enough.

It’s quite alright to stay on that three degree glidepath and slow down, dragging it in with a bit of power. I know, I know, gotta set up to be able, to glide in case the engine quits. The chances of an engine that’s been running fine the whole flight suddenly giving it up when it’s barely above idle power is pretty darned low.

If you’re never going to land where book performance is needed, then go ahead and keep crossing the fence at 70 knots in a lightly-loaded 172 and touch down a football past where the guy who flies it at 55 or less has already exited after slowing to a walking pace.

 

[Domenick]

If you’re never going to land where book performance is needed, then go ahead and keep crossing the fence at 70 knots in a lightly-loaded 172 and touch down a football past where the guy who flies it at 55 or less has already exited after slowing to a walking pace.

Which was why I asked how long the OP's home runway was. My home field is 1970' between the displaced thresholds (2700' of asphalt). In my Warrior, I level out of base and slow to 65 knots. As I descend airspeed drops. My target is 55 over at the threshold. Over the years a few pilots have come in too hot, floated too far and gone off one end or the other.

Want to gain confidence in your plane's and your low speed handling? At altitude practice your slow flight training. Full flaps, my Warrior will maintain altitude until about 40 knots.

 

[AvNavCom]

Check the engine idle settings. Too high an idle will cause float. I liked to set it at bare minimum almost engine stall rpm on ground. Made a big difference.

On the other hand, in my Hershey-bar Cherokee C, if I don't have just a touch of power in the flare she'll quit flying in a hurry. That plane has never heard of ground effect.

 

[Wagondriver]

It’s simple, too fast.

 

[FastEddieB]

It’s simple, too fast.

Still not that simple. A pilot who can accurately determine his or her height above the runway can flare -without climbing - at any speed. Given enough runway, of course. But excess speed certainly doesn’t help.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Still not that simple. A pilot who can accurately determine his or her height above the runway can flare -without climbing - at any speed.

True, but the faster you're flying, the more finesse is required and the harder it is.

 

[FastEddieB]

True, but the faster you're flying, the more finesse is required and the harder it is.

Perhaps. Which is why it might be a good exercise for a student to work on if struggling.

 

[Tony R]

If you ever get the opportunity to fly a Pipistrel Alpha Trainer please do. My CFI transitions other CFIs to this plane and he said it is very humbling for other CFI with only legacy time. I imagine pilots with glider time will have a natural feel for it. Energy management at its finest. There is one to rent at KHFD, they even have the all electric one coming online soon. (Although I have no interest in flying it, too many limitations)

 

[WDD]

The best advise I was given flying the Pipistrel Alpha (N520AT) was don't land. Just let it fly down the runway and hold it off. My CFI saying don't land, don't land, don't land until it just didn't have enough energy to fly.

Good advice. Let me give my 2 cents. Don't flare, don't land. That is, don't think/overthink about flaring. Put in your mind to level out as low as possible and pull the power down, but not to idle. Fly the plane down the runway. You'll loose airspeed, and without thinking about it you'll pull the nose up to keep it flying. The plane will sink slowly and the mains will touch.

 

[FastEddieB]

Another perspective…

Rounding out and flaring from 1.3 or even 1.2 Vso takes a certain amount of time. I’d guess something like 5 to 10 seconds. For an experienced pilot, this seems like plenty of time to transition to a “full stall” airspeed while holding the plane inches above the runway. And nipping any “climb” in the bud the entire time. Easy peasy.

But now try to recall how it felt early on in your training. Trying to judge height while simultaneously keeping runway alignment, correcting for drift, and recognizing that the amount of control input needed for each task is constantly changing as airspeed slows. And all of this in 5 to 10 seconds! There’s a LOT going on, andIt’s anything but “easy peasy” and it takes a lot of time to master.

I think this might be why an exercise involving a bit of extra speed to prolong the landing process might be beneficial. However, it should be made clear that in practice, excess speed is NOT your friend and not to be relied on once the process is mastered. Anyway, it’s just one technique that may help a struggling student.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I think this might be why an exercise involving a bit of extra speed to prolong the landing process might be beneficial. However, it should be made clear that in practice, excess speed is NOT your friend and not to be relied on once the process is mastered. Anyway, it’s just one technique that may help a struggling student.

That violates the Learning Factor of Primacy. If you do that at first, the student will always do it, never nailing airspeed or touching down at minimum airspeed at the desired spot.

The average human is capable of much more than we think, and the procedures should not be dumbed down so that the pilot later struggles to unlearn the wrong stuff to learn the right stuff.

 

[FastEddieB]

That violates the Learning Factor of Primacy. If you do that at first, the student will always do it, never nailing airspeed or touching down at minimum airspeed at the desired spot.

I’m a firm believer in the Law of Primacy. In light of that, I would never teach this “at first”. My students learned power off, full flap, *full stall” landings from appropriate approach speeds from the beginning and had it drilled into them from their very first approach and landing.

What I thought we were discussing here were exercises that might help a pilot “climbing in flare”, which is the title of this thread. Here, the goal might be to temporarily lengthen the process to give the student more time to react and to learn how to better judge height. Others in this thread have suggested carrying a bit of power into the flare. I’m not a proponent of that, in general, but I can see it has the same goal and could work.

In neither case, carrying power nor coming in a bit fast, was that meant to provide a crutch that the student might carry forward into their flying career. Once they got better at the process, they would be immediately returned to power off and normal approach speeds using the insights they gained from the exercises and to flare without climbing!

 

[NorthEast Ohio]

Bdoss, what is the slope of the runway you’re using? Maybe it’s not you. Maybe the runway is slopeing away from you. Try flying the pattern the other way and see if you drive the landing gear into the runway. Then you’ll know it’s the slope.

 

[Hengelo]

Post sounds like bait. Where is the instructor?

 

[Tony R]

Hey OP did you go up since this post? How is it progressing? Good luck.

 

[brcase]

It’s simple, too fast.

Yes, sort of.
may to low, to fast.
I have a couple students both struggling with this. Finally just soloed one of them. This was the only thing holding him back. He struggles with it still a bit but recognizes when he hits the ground effect and is working very hard not to over control. He knows when to go around when he does.

What I am observing is not so much that they are approach to fast, is a nice 60 kts or even a bit slower over the threshold but they drop down to 2-3 feet almost immediately hit the ground effect and the elevator gets a lot more sensitive due to the excess speed in the ground effect . What I am trying to get them to do is to ideally about the time the hit the 10-20 foot altitude is flatten and extend the glide angle so they start slowing down more before and as they enter the ground effect. If they get slowed down a bit more before entering the ground effect they seem to do fine as the elevator is not nearly as sensitive. The Hot weather probably intensifies the ground effect issue along with the higher ground speeds.

Agree would love to hear an update from the OP.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[MauleSkinner]

On the other hand, in my Hershey-bar Cherokee C, if I don't have just a touch of power in the flare she'll quit flying in a hurry. That plane has never heard of ground effect.

Don’t flare so high. The airplane is supposed to quit flying during the landing. You just have to be in the proper place when it does.