Cleared through Bravo, but... did I violate the rules?

COFlyBoy said:
1- OAK center is not the controlling ATC for SFO Bravo, so no they cannot clear you into the Bravo. NorCal can because it is their airspace. SFO tower does whenever you take off. However, if you call them to enter the Bravo from outside, they will likely tell you to call NorCal.
2- Ask OAK Center for clearance into the Bravo or Charlie, that'll nicely remind them thay you're there. They'll likely tell you to remain clear of the Bravo/Charlie and then hand you to approach, who will hopefully let you enter.
3- If you enter the SFO Bravo w/o clearance from NorCal approach you are in violation. If you enter the OAK Charlie w/o radio contact with NorCal approach you are inviolation. (Notice: Clearance for Bravo, Radio contact for Charlie)
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1 - I'm not sure about Norcal and SFO, but I believe in New York's airspace, helicopters wanting to transition a class-B surface area just call up the tower.

3 - You can also be talking to OAK tower, which is who Hayward will hand you off to (or at least, that's been my limited experience here).

I don't know exactly how things work as far as airspace ownership goes, but I don't think Norcal owns all of the class-B or -C airspace around here. When I was taking a tour of New York TRACON, one of the controlers was explaining the issues associated with flying around LGA, and anything that took you through the LGA surface area, up to 2000MSL was entirely up to the tower (although you'd likely be talking to New York approach, and they'd coordinate for you). It sounded to me like LGA owns that part of the class-B airspace, and I would guess a similar situation exists here.
 
Really great feedback, thank you everyone.

I have to say, very little of all this makes it into PPL training... you get the basic airspace definitions, but being able to extrapolate into all these nuances is, I feel, way beyond the capacity of a newly minted private pilot.

Well, this private pilot anyway.

Heck, I didn't even fully understand the hierarchy of ATC until after my checkride and before I took my first flight... which is when I grabbed a random instructor at my FBO and asked a couple questions that I could not figure out from the chart. Like... who to call when I am heading northeast from CCR? I used to just answer "Travis approach" but it didn't make sense to me in the bigger context; I was quite surprised to hear "OAK ctr"... and THEN I couldn't figure out where to find the freq for it, which led to more questions, which ended up as a 15m impromptu training session that cleared up so many thing I was unsure about. What amazed me was that I was able to get my certificate WITHOUT proper understanding of all this, yet could recite chapter and verse about how to use NDB. That part of my learning experience still makes no sense to me at all.
 
ScottM said:
What Grant said!

BTW for Class Bravo I have Chicago, Memphis, Tampa, San Diego, Detroit, St. Louis, and Kansas City. 7! Not too bad for a flib flyer.
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You've got more than me, but mine are different. Seattle and Honolulu. And, no, I did not fly between them. :D
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you should see if Operation Raincheck is in effect around there. That is a program whereby pilots have the opportunity to visit an ATC facility, talk with the controllers, and even plug in and sit with them as they work. Here at Chicago Center, they do it as a three hour session, with an hour spent discussing how the system works, an hour touring the facility, where they show you the training area, the weather center, and the operations center, and an hour plugged in with the controller. Really informative. Here they post the sessions at http://faasafety.gov.
 
Norcal Approach (2 weeks ago) denied my bravo request because I was just doing the bay tour.

I expected that, and they even denied VFR transitions through Bravo too.

When they told me to remain clear of all bravo airspace and stay north and west of the Bay Bridge, they did not say anything about Charlie.

I heard them say to another pilot - remain clear of Charlie and Bravo.

So even though I tried to avoid Charlie (near Treasure island, floor 1500 feet) I found out that because I had established two way communications with them and was not told to stay out of it - that I was OK to go into it. Looking at my photos I may have gone a few inches into that space but not much more.

They did not say anything or give me a phone number, so I know I didn't bust Bravo.

Kimberly
 
Palmpilot said:
There are exceptions to that. For example, if you're transitioning up the peninsula through San Carlos Airport's class D, San Carlos Tower will tell you to contact San Francisco Tower, and you have to wait for San Franciso Tower to clear you before you enter the class B.
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Thanks, I wasn't aware of that case. You'll probably find these sort of unique exceptions in many Class B areas, but I think that they are the exception rather than the rule. Doesn't mean you don't have to be aware of them, though!
Palmpilot said:
And of course, if you're departing SFO, you got your class B clearance when San Francisco Tower said "cleared for takeoff."
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I'm trying to remember if ORD explicitly cleared me into the Bravo when I departed there. Now that you mention it, I think they did, but I was too busy looking up at the 747 holding short for me to notice! :)
 
gprellwitz said:
I'm trying to remember if ORD explicitly cleared me into the Bravo when I departed there. Now that you mention it, I think they did, but I was too busy looking up at the 747 holding short for me to notice! :)
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I would think that "cleared for takeoff" is all they would have to say if you were departing from the primary airport, since 91.131 just says you have to get a clearance, and doesn't specify any particular wording. However, I've never actually done it, so I don't know what they say to VFR departures. I expect they would give you a specific route and altitude to fly.
 
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onwards said:
So even WITHIN an airspace, they have internal divisions? is it my responsibility to be aware of them? I don't think those distinctions are on the chart, or am I missing your intent?
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No, you don't need to know what is happening on the ATC side at all and there are a lot of numbers NOT on any of your charts that ATC worries about that you can't look up even if you want to. (Minimum vectoring altitude springs to mind...) However, once you cross through Bravo a few times, you know what to expect.... mostly.

Sometimes they won't clear you through Bravo (see Kimberley's post) as depending on wind direction they might be launching jets right through where you want to go. Then you get to choose to either go under the bravo along the coast if it's clear, or an Oakland transition if it's not. The Oakland transition will send you hunting for something called the Mormon Temple (I've never seen it) but if you head for the huge stadium that seems to work well enough, and then they turn you to cross the mid span of the San Mateo bridge (easily found, but "vpmid" on a Garmin will send you directly there).

I think 90% of the stress of flying isn't so much a fear that you're going to die, it's that you're going to be given a phone number to call after you land. I'm not even half joking.
 
thomascannon said:
No, you don't need to know what is happening on the ATC side at all and there are a lot of numbers NOT on any of your charts that ATC worries about that you can't look up even if you want to. (Minimum vectoring altitude springs to mind...) However, once you cross through Bravo a few times, you know what to expect.... mostly.

Sometimes they won't clear you through Bravo (see Kimberley's post) as depending on wind direction they might be launching jets right through where you want to go. Then you get to choose to either go under the bravo along the coast if it's clear, or an Oakland transition if it's not. The Oakland transition will send you hunting for something called the Mormon Temple (I've never seen it) but if you head for the huge stadium that seems to work well enough, and then they turn you to cross the mid span of the San Mateo bridge (easily found, but "vpmid" on a Garmin will send you directly there).

I think 90% of the stress of flying isn't so much a fear that you're going to die, it's that you're going to be given a phone number to call after you land. I'm not even half joking.
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Ha! I know exactly where the mormon temple is! LOL

You're absolutely right in terms of that fear... and, to add stress, the FIRST flight I took after passing my checkride I heard someone getting the dreaded "please write down this number" radio communique. Fortunately it wasn't me, but I felt for that guy, and it really put me on notice, too. I don't think that's healthy, by the way.

As a sidenote, you mention Garmin... what do you think of their Aera 500 series? I'm debating whether to get one, because my club planes have those old GPS units without a moving map (you know, the two-line affairs that give you a bearing). I do well enough with those, but wondering if having a portable unit too would be helpful, especially in more complex environments.

A new 500 can be acquired for about $500 from various sources (and eBay), which is about what I can afford. Worth it?
 
onwards said:
Ha! I know exactly where the mormon temple is! LOL
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Me too. It's in the Oakland Hills.

oakland-mormon-temple24-thumb.jpg
 
Everskyward said:
Me too. It's in the Oakland Hills.

oakland-mormon-temple24-thumb.jpg
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It was not that easy to find when I flew to Oakland during my training! Perhaps I should fly there again soon. I really need to practice radio work since Half Moon Bay / Palo Alto / San Carlos are so close to all the rings and I may want to land there some day soon.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You have? You mean, nothing happened?
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Correct. Nothing happened, other than the after-the-fact class B clearance that one time. That was the only time it happened while I was in contact with ATC.

I'm thinking the reason nobody bothered to find and/or sanction me was that it must not have caused a loss of separation. Other than the one above, it was just clipping a corner type stuff.

Did you fill out a NASA form?
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The first few times, yes. Lately, I've been less likely to bother with it. I just slap myself on the wrist and say, "Self, don't do that again!"

I do know someone who got sanctioned for doing it. He followed the San Mateo Bridge across the bay. Oops. That took him across the SFO final approach course, which has to be the worst possible place to bust class B. Back then it was called a "TCA," for "terminal control area," instead of class B airspace, but the shape of the surface area was the same as it is today.
 
thomascannon said:
But now you've admitted it on the Internet, so I'd expect you'll hear no end of it now!

:nono::nono::nono::nono:

:rofl:
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Will you visit me in prison?

I think they have to specify a date and time, and I couldn't come up with that information even if I wanted to.
 
Palmpilot said:
Correct. Nothing happened, other than the after-the-fact class B clearance that one time. That was the only time it happened while I was in contact with ATC.

I'm thinking the reason nobody bothered to find and/or sanction me was that it must not have caused a loss of separation. Other than the one above, it was just clipping a corner type stuff.



The first few times, yes. Lately, I've been less likely to bother with it. I just slap myself on the wrist and say, "Self, don't do that again!"

I do know someone who got sanctioned for doing it. He followed the San Mateo Bridge across the bay. Oops. That took him across the SFO final approach course, which has to be the worst possible place to bust class B. Back then it was called a "TCA," for "terminal control area," instead of class B airspace, but the shape of the surface area was the same as it is today.
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How do they "find you" if you are not talking to them?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
How do they "find you" if you are not talking to them?
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They put a tag on your radar return and contact the field where you land and ask them to get the tail number of the plane that just landed. Not 100% reliable, of course.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
How do they "find you" if you are not talking to them?
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They can watch the radar blip and see where you land. If you land at a towered airport, they can call the tower and ask who just landed. If you land at an untowered field, I don't know what they can do.
 
Palmpilot said:
They can watch the radar blip and see where you land. If you land at a towered airport, they can call the tower and ask who just landed. If you land at an untowered field, I don't know what they can do.
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They'll call the FBO and/or airport manager. Of course, in some places (e.g. 6Y9) that's a futile effort!
 
Palmpilot said:
They can watch the radar blip and see where you land. If you land at a towered airport, they can call the tower and ask who just landed. If you land at an untowered field, I don't know what they can do.
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Years ago I was flying as the camera operator doing aerial survey. The pilot was a young guy with airline aspirations. After we finished photographing one of our sites he realized we had been in the St. Louis TCA (they were TCAs at the time, now Class B ). The first thing he decided to do was fly out to the southwest of St. Louis, down in the hills for the purpose of losing the radar return on the airplane. After we returned to the office he got to feeling guilty so he called TRACON on the phone and confessed. I don't think they knew what he was talking about, in any case they let it go. They probably had never had an unsolicited call like that before. :confused:
 
Jeanie said:
Do you know of he made it to the airlines?
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Yes. He's a 777 CA for a major airline, at least the last I heard from him which was a few years ago. He actually had good timing and got his job in the mid-late 1980s.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes. He's a 777 CA for a major airline, at least the last I heard from him which was a few years ago. He actually had good timing and got his job in the mid-late 1980s.
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Well, good on him then. His integrity has probably kept him in good stead
 
Palmpilot said:
They can watch the radar blip and see where you land. If you land at a towered airport, they can call the tower and ask who just landed. If you land at an untowered field, I don't know what they can do.
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This sounds interesting, because I noticed at some towered fields there are lots of landing planes, one right after the other. I guess when they call they have to hope they got the right one? Couldn't the tower give out the wrong tail number if there are a lot of planes landing and they call after the plane lands and taxis to parking?
 
I'll admit it. I clipped the northwest corner of the DEN Bravo last year. I also filed a NASA form.

Utter stupidity mixed with a minor distraction -- self-caused.

Mistakes happen. Caught this one in time and was never more than 1/4 mile inside the Bravo, but boy was I sure mad at myself.

Decided attempting to skirt Bravo edges to save two minutes of glorious flight time, was retarded thinking on my part. Could just as easily fly 30 minutes further away, way around the Bravo, and I'd have enjoyed the flight.

Wasn't in any hurry that day. Just playing with GPS gadgets. Stupid.

Nobody called or wrote.
 
denverpilot said:
I'll admit it. I clipped the northwest corner of the DEN Bravo last year. I also filed a NASA form.
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That happened a lot at Front Range when they went from non-towered to Class D.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This sounds interesting, because I noticed at some towered fields there are lots of landing planes, one right after the other. I guess when they call they have to hope they got the right one? Couldn't the tower give out the wrong tail number if there are a lot of planes landing and they call after the plane lands and taxis to parking?
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I've heard approach talk to the tower before the plane lands. They watched it all the way down. At my non-towered airport, I know they've called the FBO a couple times and asked for the N# of plane that just landed. They may or may not have any idea.
 
Jeanie said:
Well, good on him then. His integrity has probably kept him in good stead
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Whether or not it's true, what I learned from that is that they are not out to get you. I have had a few occasions where I have been asked to call that number they give you on the frequency. I've called every time and if it was something I knew I screwed up I confessed. So far I've always been forgiven with not even a warning letter.
 
I took an aviation law course once and they taught NOT to call the number if you screw up as it's an admission of guilt.

Ive never had to call but if I did screw up I'd call, admit my mistake and hope they forgive me.
 
Swampfox201 said:
I took an aviation law course once and they taught NOT to call the number if you screw up as it's an admission of guilt.

Ive never had to call but if I did screw up I'd call, admit my mistake and hope they forgive me.
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I would imagine not calling would be construed by the ATC official requesting the call as a slight, and may cause a chain reaction that is negative rather than positive. I don't understand why calling the number would be an admission of guilt.
 
Anthony said:
I would imagine not calling would be construed by the ATC official requesting the call as a slight, and may cause a chain reaction that is negative rather than positive. I don't understand why calling the number would be an admission of guilt.
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You are correct.

And calling is not considered an admission of guilt.
 
Not that I've ever done it, or had to do it, but I HAVE mentally gone through the steps of what I might do if I say, inadvertantly busted SFO Class B and I wasn't communicating with ATC.

I would probably go outside the Mode C veil, turn the transponder off, jump over the Napa Valley ridgeline, and fly low to someplace like 069, join the pattern for a couple T&G's using "White Arrow" as a callsign, then head back to the home field.

This is just a thought exercise, just a thought exercise. Don't nobody lambast me for a thought crime.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This sounds interesting, because I noticed at some towered fields there are lots of landing planes, one right after the other. I guess when they call they have to hope they got the right one? Couldn't the tower give out the wrong tail number if there are a lot of planes landing and they call after the plane lands and taxis to parking?
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Palo Alto is about as busy as a GA airport can be and still have a single runway, but I'm not sure if they have ever mixed me up with anyone else in twenty years of flying out of there.

It did happen once at San Carlos, at the end of my private pilot checkride! They kept calling out traffic at about my position, and I couldn't find it, looked for my shadow, etc. Finally the examiner pointed to another airplane some distance away, and it was clear that the controller had mixed us up with the other airplane, so I did what I had been taught, which was to make a position report, and that cleared up the confusion.
 
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thomascannon said:
The Oakland transition will send you hunting for something called the Mormon Temple (I've never seen it).
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Useful GPS waypoints in the East Bay:

VPMOR - Mormon Temple
VPCBT - Lake Chabot
VPMID - San Mateo Bridge mid-span

Eventually I'll be able to find the Mormon Temple every time visually... it can be a bugger to spot.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
You are correct.

And calling is not considered an admission of guilt.
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Which reminds me of one time when I was coming in to my home field, there was a student pilot behind me screwing up right and left. The final straw was turning base after being instructed to continue downwind.

Once he was on the ground, the tower gave him a number, and said "This is the number of the tower. Call it after you park and we will give you a free tour of the tower."

I talked to him later as I was leaving the airport. As I suspected, the "tour the tower" was a major ***** out session and instruction in Class D protocol. But, that's as far as it went.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
And calling is not considered an admission of guilt.
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denverpilot said:
Just watch what you say. :) Stuff you SAY can be.
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If you get a request to call the tower after landing, here's my advise (if this is an airspace bust or something similar)

1) Once you have everything taken care of (plane parked, etc) make the phone call.

2) Be courteous. This is not the time to start a p!ssing match or try to prove to the controller you know more than him/her.

3) Listen and ask questions if you are not sure what's going on and why. An event happened to trigger this call and the controller is trying to get both sides of the picture.

4) If the controller does advise you that a Pilot Deviation will be filed, stay calm. Close the conversation when done, be polite.

ATC personnel cannot investigate a PD (Pilot Deviation). This is sent to the local FSDO and an ASI will conduct the investigation.

The ASI will contact you, usually via telephone. Take the call, be polite and answer the questions. This is not the time to embellish or lie about the event. Display a constructive and compliant attitude. Sometimes during the course of the investigation it's discovered that there are other factors that lead up to the event such as controller communication error, avionics failure, etc.

Most times the PD will end with counseling or maybe even a letter of warning.

If you decide not to call, expect an LOI (Letter of Investigation) within a few days from the FSDO. If you still decide not to answer the LOI then one may expect the situation to escalate to either an enforcement or 44709 evaluation.

We are all human (well, most of us anyway) and make mistakes. The ASI's role is Safety and would like to use the event as a learning situation and get the Airman into compliance.
 
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