Cleared through Bravo, but... did I violate the rules?

[onwards]

Had a wonderful evening today flying out to Half Moon Bay (KHAF) and having a truly delightful dinner at Cafe Gibraltar (people, if you ever visit, you HAVE to go there... truly delicious and a great ambiance!).

Anyhow, that's not why I am writing.

On the way out, I got to 1000ft and contacted Norcal for flight following.

Completely unexpectedly, after getting the squawk code and explaining my destination is Concord (CCR), she clears me this way:

"cleared into class Bravo up to 2500ft direct to Concord".

I sure was surprised, I wasn't planning for this one to be my first actual flight through Bravo, but what the hey... I'm not one to waste a good thing!

So I acknowledged and instead of my original route (along the coast over the golden gate and then straight out to CCR all under the Bravo shelves), I climbed up to 2300ft while pointing the nose straight out to CCR.

It was a magnificent flight - flying over SF at night is really something else.

Anyway, this is STILL not the reason I am posting, although you needed all this info for the next part.

As I am almost to the Bay Bridge, the controller asks me if I wanted clearance for a higher altitude. "No", I said, "perfectly happy at 2300ft". He said "OK" and left me alone. Then I realize something. I was just cruizing from the SFO Bravo to the OAK Charlie!

If you look at the SF TAC, it shows the OAK Charlie as being 15 to T right there. Well, the T (bottom of the SFO Bravo) for part of it 2100ft, but for another part is actually 3000ft... so without thinking, for about a half mile to a mile, I was travelling in the OAK Charlie while only having been cleared for the SFO Bravo. I then asked to go to 3500ft, got cleared for that, and went on straight to CCR.

Norcal didn't say anything, but I started wondering. Was that the reason he asked if I needed clearance for a higher altitude? did I break a rule? is this a violation? my impression to this point has always been that I just need to be with ATC on the radio before entering Charlie (which I was, obviously), and only Bravo needs a clearance (which I had), but why would he ask me about my altitude then?

And if I did do this wrong, then what IS the proper way of handling this sort of thing? I believe I need to stay on with ATC all throughout Bravo... so how do I do that while getting - what would it be, another clearance from OAK? or just even a notification? - into the Charlie? is it expected that I should operate both radios simultaneously? or am I just fretting over something that isn't there? should I have asked Norcal to to switch over to OAK, then asked OAK to go back to Norcal? I am so used to these guys handing me off themselves, and that clearance felt so magical... am I over-thinking this?

Argh!

I'm totally confused right now. Again, remember, this was my first ever flight through Bravo, completely unplanned... please be gentle.

 

[chucky]

91.130 (b)
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

So, no, you didn't break any rules. As long as you're talking to the appropriate facility (for Oakland, that's Norcal), you're fine.

Edit - when in doubt, though, ask. You can always say 'verify November xxx is cleared in to the class charlie?', but you don't need to.

 

[gprellwitz]

Just guessing here, but I'd say that the controller was querying you to determine what he needed to tell the OAK controller when he coordinated your passage through their airspace. It sounds like you did just fine.

And congrats on your Class Bravo clearance! I think I only have about 3 of them so far, and one of them was way down in Tampa, and I didn't even need it!

 

[thomascannon]

As I am almost to the Bay Bridge, the controller asks me if I wanted clearance for a higher altitude. "No", I said, "perfectly happy at 2300ft". He said "OK" and left me alone. Then I realize something. I was just cruizing from the SFO Bravo to the OAK Charlie!

That's perfectly ok -- the reason he or she was asking was because you don't have any options over the San Pablo Bay at 2,300' and many pilots would want to be higher. Kind of a waste to burn a bunch of time in a climb when heading to CCR from that point, but that's why they were asking. You don't need to be cleared into Charlie, but if you enter Charlie and fly back into Bravo without a fresh new clearance, you're in trouble. That's why they're frequently let you know when you've left Bravo -- just trying to keep you from bending rules by wandering out and back into of Bravo by accident.

I was at HAF for lunch today. Probably was there from 1:15 to 2:15. When were you there? Great day for flying... smooth and clear and really not very crowded for a weekend. I got out of Palo Alto without any wait, and there wasn't anybody in the pattern at KHAF until after I landed. Sounded like everyone showed up at once though while I was taxiing to the restaurant.

 

[onwards]

Thank you all!

Thomascannon, that makes sense... so if I am reading your response correctly, I basically had TWO Bravo clearances last night, not one; the first one being the one I was given out of the blue, and the second one when I asked for clearance to climb to 3500ft out of Charlie and back into Bravo. Is that right? the funny thing is, I didn't even realize I lost my original clearance by transitioning between the two like that.

That also explains why when I asked for that he responded "cleared to climb into Bravo"... I did wonder why he said that, but was so much more concerned about the earlier comment I didn't stop and think about it. Had I done that I could have probably figured the whole thing out by myself. It was my second clearance.

Yeah, it was real busy when I got there around 5PM... there were four planes in the pattern, but everyone was spaced nicely and I slotted in easily on downwind. Also amusing for me was when I left, because a couple others were leaving too, and we made this line of planes on the way out... felt a little like a busy time in a commercial flight when all the planes are standing in line ready to take off at the runway.

 

[ScottM]

Just guessing here, but I'd say that the controller was querying you to determine what he needed to tell the OAK controller when he coordinated your passage through their airspace. It sounds like you did just fine.

And congrats on your Class Bravo clearance! I think I only have about 3 of them so far, and one of them was way down in Tampa, and I didn't even need it!

What Grant said!

BTW for Class Bravo I have Chicago, Memphis, Tampa, San Diego, Detroit, St. Louis, and Kansas City. 7! Not too bad for a flib flyer.

 

[JeffDG]

The thing I was thinking in your original post was you violated the Bravo when you asked for 3,500' and climbed in, but since the controller cleared you into the Bravo again, you're good.

 

[onwards]

The thing I was thinking in your original post was you violated the Bravo when you asked for 3,500' and climbed in, but since the controller cleared you into the Bravo again, you're good.

Yeah, I did ask for clearance, but mostly because I was nervous about the previous non-violation (as I described it in my initial post) than because I thought I needed another clearance... I think this was more instinct or maybe remnants from training than anything else (it was impressed upon me that even if I am cleared in Bravo, I must request for ALT changes). In other words, looks like I did things right, but for the wrong reasons.

Great lesson, though!

 

[JeffDG]

Yeah, I did ask for clearance, but mostly because I was nervous about the previous non-violation (as I described it in my initial post) than because I thought I needed another clearance... I think this was more instinct or maybe remnants from training than anything else (it was impressed upon me that even if I am cleared in Bravo, I must request for ALT changes). In other words, looks like I did things right, but for the wrong reasons.

Great lesson, though!

I think that once you left the Bravo into the Charlie, your Class B clearance expired, and you needed another to re-enter the Class B...

But I could be wrong.

 

[onwards]

I think that once you left the Bravo into the Charlie, your Class B clearance expired, and you needed another to re-enter the Class B...

But I could be wrong.

I think you're right, and it would explain why the controller specifically said "cleared to climb through Bravo" when I asked for my ALT change after I crossed over to OAK Charlie.

I also think that this would not be an uncommon error around here - just look at the TAC. It's an easy mistake to make! it really was by sheer luck that I didn't (shoot, I actually specifically stated "request clearance to climb to 3500ft" - thinking I needed that WHILE in Bravo, but instead actually making the proper request to get back INTO Bravo). But now I know, so I certainly won't need luck to avoid making this mistake in the future... talk about a free lesson!

 

[Sac Arrow]

The controller was asking if you wanted a higher clearance because a) whatever traffic causing the restriction was gone, and b) normally people like to cruise at a higher altitude in transit, especially over water. You would have already been handed off to the ATC sector that controls Oakland's Class C while you were still in Bravo, so as mentioned all is good. But yes, you need another Bravo clearance if you are to re-enter it and typically they will just give it to you without asking but make sure because that isn't always the case.

 

[onwards]

The controller was asking if you wanted a higher clearance because a) whatever traffic causing the restriction was gone, and b) normally people like to cruise at a higher altitude in transit, especially over water. You would have already been handed off to the ATC sector that controls Oakland's Class C while you were still in Bravo, so as mentioned all is good. But yes, you need another Bravo clearance if you are to re-enter it and typically they will just give it to you without asking but make sure because that isn't always the case.

Ohh... another good point!

As for flying over water... all I can say is, here in the bay area, we all fly pretty darn close to the water all the time for example, on my way to HMB, being a little cautious I decided to take the "outside route" which kept me at 2000ft right under the Bravo shelf a couple miles off the coastline... I counted 7 single-engines (and a few others) all flying north at 900-1300ft closer in under the lower Bravo shelf in a 10 mile stretch. And if you ever fly out here on a clear day, there are plenty of folks doing various kinds of sight seeing flights all over the bay at 2000ft or less. Water? we ain't scared of no water

 

[Sac Arrow]

Ohh... another good point!

As for flying over water... all I can say is, here in the bay area, we all fly pretty darn close to the water all the time for example, on my way to HMB, being a little cautious I decided to take the "outside route" which kept me at 2000ft right under the Bravo shelf a couple miles off the coastline... I counted 7 single-engines (and a few others) all flying north at 900-1300ft closer in under the lower Bravo shelf in a 10 mile stretch. And if you ever fly out here on a clear day, there are plenty of folks doing various kinds of sight seeing flights all over the bay at 2000ft or less. Water? we ain't scared of no water

Me neither, I usually just fly under SFO's Class B at 1,500 feet to get to Half Moon Bay.

By the way, the Princeton Seafood Company (in the harbor parking lot) is THE place to eat when you are in Half Moon Bay. Hella good crab sandwiches when they are in season.

 

[EdFred]

What Grant said!

BTW for Class Bravo I have Chicago, Memphis, Tampa, San Diego, Detroit, St. Louis, and Kansas City. 7! Not too bad for a flib flyer.

100% on asking for a Bravo clearance and getting it for me.

Tampa, Charlotte, Atlanta, Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Boston, Memphis

I've been told preemptively to remain clear, but every time I've asked for clearance into it, I've gotten it.

 

[roncachamp]

On the way out, I got to 1000ft and contacted Norcal for flight following.

Completely unexpectedly, after getting the squawk code and explaining my destination is Concord (CCR), she clears me this way:

"cleared into class Bravo up to 2500ft direct to Concord".

I sure was surprised, I wasn't planning for this one to be my first actual flight through Bravo, but what the hey... I'm not one to waste a good thing!

So I acknowledged and instead of my original route (along the coast over the golden gate and then straight out to CCR all under the Bravo shelves), I climbed up to 2300ft while pointing the nose straight out to CCR.

It was a magnificent flight - flying over SF at night is really something else.

Anyway, this is STILL not the reason I am posting, although you needed all this info for the next part.

As I am almost to the Bay Bridge, the controller asks me if I wanted clearance for a higher altitude. "No", I said, "perfectly happy at 2300ft". He said "OK" and left me alone. Then I realize something. I was just cruizing from the SFO Bravo to the OAK Charlie!

If you look at the SF TAC, it shows the OAK Charlie as being 15 to T right there. Well, the T (bottom of the SFO Bravo) for part of it 2100ft, but for another part is actually 3000ft... so without thinking, for about a half mile to a mile, I was travelling in the OAK Charlie while only having been cleared for the SFO Bravo. I then asked to go to 3500ft, got cleared for that, and went on straight to CCR.

Norcal didn't say anything, but I started wondering. Was that the reason he asked if I needed clearance for a higher altitude?

The initial restriction up to 2500 was probably for traffic at 3000. Once that traffic was no longer a factor you were asked if you wanted higher.

did I break a rule? is this a violation?

No. No.

 

[bobmrg]

Had a wonderful evening today flying out to Half Moon Bay (KHAF) and having a truly delightful dinner at Cafe Gibraltar (people, if you ever visit, you HAVE to go there... truly delicious and a great ambiance!).

Anyhow, that's not why I am writing.

On the way out, I got to 1000ft and contacted Norcal for flight following.

Completely unexpectedly, after getting the squawk code and explaining my destination is Concord (CCR), she clears me this way:

"cleared into class Bravo up to 2500ft direct to Concord".

I sure was surprised, I wasn't planning for this one to be my first actual flight through Bravo, but what the hey... I'm not one to waste a good thing!

So I acknowledged and instead of my original route (along the coast over the golden gate and then straight out to CCR all under the Bravo shelves), I climbed up to 2300ft while pointing the nose straight out to CCR.

It was a magnificent flight - flying over SF at night is really something else.

Anyway, this is STILL not the reason I am posting, although you needed all this info for the next part.

As I am almost to the Bay Bridge, the controller asks me if I wanted clearance for a higher altitude. "No", I said, "perfectly happy at 2300ft". He said "OK" and left me alone. Then I realize something. I was just cruizing from the SFO Bravo to the OAK Charlie!

If you look at the SF TAC, it shows the OAK Charlie as being 15 to T right there. Well, the T (bottom of the SFO Bravo) for part of it 2100ft, but for another part is actually 3000ft... so without thinking, for about a half mile to a mile, I was travelling in the OAK Charlie while only having been cleared for the SFO Bravo. I then asked to go to 3500ft, got cleared for that, and went on straight to CCR.

Norcal didn't say anything, but I started wondering. Was that the reason he asked if I needed clearance for a higher altitude? did I break a rule? is this a violation? my impression to this point has always been that I just need to be with ATC on the radio before entering Charlie (which I was, obviously), and only Bravo needs a clearance (which I had), but why would he ask me about my altitude then?

And if I did do this wrong, then what IS the proper way of handling this sort of thing? I believe I need to stay on with ATC all throughout Bravo... so how do I do that while getting - what would it be, another clearance from OAK? or just even a notification? - into the Charlie? is it expected that I should operate both radios simultaneously? or am I just fretting over something that isn't there? should I have asked Norcal to to switch over to OAK, then asked OAK to go back to Norcal? I am so used to these guys handing me off themselves, and that clearance felt so magical... am I over-thinking this?

Argh!

I'm totally confused right now. Again, remember, this was my first ever flight through Bravo, completely unplanned... please be gentle.

When you are receiving advisories from a radar facility, that controller is REQUIRED to coordinate your passage with the "owner" of other airspace that your flight will enter.

Bob Gardner

 

[roncachamp]

When you are receiving advisories from a radar facility, that controller is REQUIRED to coordinate your passage with the "owner" of other airspace that your flight will enter.

That's true of a Class D surface area, but if you've been receiving advisories from an ARTCC and find yourself approaching a Class C boundary, the center controller probably forgot about you and no coordination has been completed.

 

[onwards]

That's true of a Class D surface area, but if you've been receiving advisories from an ARTCC and find yourself approaching a Class C boundary, the center controller probably forgot about you and no coordination has been completed.

Say what?

I thought I had a handle on this, and now you've gone and gotten me all confused again... so if I'm with (say) Norcal or OAK center, and moving between air spaces (let's leave Bravo out of it for the moment), should I assume that this is being coordinated or not?

For example, say I am flying under the Bravo shelf over the bay (maintaining 1600ft, in Echo), and decide to get into OAK Charlie over the Bay Bridge. I have been on with Norcal (for advisories, with a squawk code) the whole time. Do I need to do something special or not, beyond telling them my intent to fly over the bridge? as long as I stay under the Bravo space, that is.

 

[SkyHog]

What Grant said!

BTW for Class Bravo I have Chicago, Memphis, Tampa, San Diego, Detroit, St. Louis, and Kansas City. 7! Not too bad for a flib flyer.

I've got Las Vegas (a number of times), Denver (twice), Tampa, Minneapolis, Boston (a bunch of times), Phoenix (a few times), and I'll bet I can get Charlotte here soon...

 

[roncachamp]

Say what?

I thought I had a handle on this, and now you've gone and gotten me all confused again... so if I'm with (say) Norcal or OAK center, and moving between air spaces (let's leave Bravo out of it for the moment), should I assume that this is being coordinated or not?

For example, say I am flying under the Bravo shelf over the bay (maintaining 1600ft, in Echo), and decide to get into OAK Charlie over the Bay Bridge. I have been on with Norcal (for advisories, with a squawk code) the whole time. Do I need to do something special or not, beyond telling them my intent to fly over the bridge? as long as I stay under the Bravo space, that is.

I'm saying that if you're receiving radar services the controller providing them is required to coordinate the transition of any Class D surface area with the control tower. You are not expected to call the tower yourself.

If you're receiving radar services from an ARTCC the controller providing them has no responsibility for any Class B or Class C airspace. If you're approaching any Class B or Class C airspace and still on a center frequency the controller you've been talking to probably forgot about you. The airspace delegated to an approach control tends to be significantly larger than any Class B or Class C airspace area contained within it. The ARTCC controller is not required to coordinate your transition of Class B/C airspace with the approach control. You are expected to call the approach control yourself.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Say what?

I thought I had a handle on this, and now you've gone and gotten me all confused again... so if I'm with (say) Norcal or OAK center, and moving between air spaces (let's leave Bravo out of it for the moment), should I assume that this is being coordinated or not?

For example, say I am flying under the Bravo shelf over the bay (maintaining 1600ft, in Echo), and decide to get into OAK Charlie over the Bay Bridge. I have been on with Norcal (for advisories, with a squawk code) the whole time. Do I need to do something special or not, beyond telling them my intent to fly over the bridge? as long as I stay under the Bravo space, that is.

You gotta be clear on who you're talking to.

NorCal (i believe) is an approach control and therefore would have jurisdiction (maybe by letter of agreement) over both the Class B and the Oakland Class C.

Oakland Center does not have jurisdiction over the Class B or Class C and therefore would have to hand you off to Approach.

These are nuances that I didn't have very clear after my primary training.

I almost busted the Denver Class B, because I thought I was talking to Denver Approach and they would give me clearance into the Bravo. It turned out I was talking to Denver Center and they had fogotten about me.

 

[onwards]

You gotta be clear on who you're talking to.

NorCal (i believe) is an approach control and therefore would have jurisdiction (maybe by letter of agreement) over both the Class B and the Oakland Class C.

Oakland Center does not have jurisdiction over the Class B or Class C and therefore would have to hand you off to Approach.

These are nuances that I didn't have very clear after my primary training.

I almost busted the Denver Class B, because I thought I was talking to Denver Approach and they would give me clearance into the Bravo. It turned out I was talking to Denver Center and they had fogotten about me.

Alright, yes, Norcal is short for "Norcal Approach" - they are responsible for all incoming flights into the bay area (I think anyway). The SFO TAC shows multiple sectors with different Norcal freqs, but they all say "contact within 30m" or something like that.

With that said, I'm a little confused about the OAK Center comment. I thought the way ARTCC is organized is hierarchically - you got the centers on top (like OAK ctr, LA ctr, Denver ctr etc), then folks like Norcal, then the actual airport specific folks. It seems from your comment like I understand this wrong. Do you (or anyone else) mind explaining this to me? it seems awfully important (is anyone else confused about this, or am I the only one?)

The one comment I will make though is that if I'm flying with OAK ctr (such as when I leave the bay area in a direction away from it), they usually do hand me off to (say) Norcal or Travis approach when I come back, although once they didn't and just terminated when I got about 12m out of CCR.

 

[gprellwitz]

Alright, yes, Norcal is short for "Norcal Approach" - they are responsible for all incoming flights into the bay area (I think anyway). The SFO TAC shows multiple sectors with different Norcal freqs, but they all say "contact within 30m" or something like that.

With that said, I'm a little confused about the OAK Center comment. I thought the way ARTCC is organized is hierarchically - you got the centers on top (like OAK ctr, LA ctr, Denver ctr etc), then folks like Norcal, then the actual airport specific folks. It seems from your comment like I understand this wrong. Do you (or anyone else) mind explaining this to me? it seems awfully important (is anyone else confused about this, or am I the only one?)

The one comment I will make though is that if I'm flying with OAK ctr (such as when I leave the bay area in a direction away from it), they usually do hand me off to (say) Norcal or Travis approach when I come back, although once they didn't and just terminated when I got about 12m out of CCR.

The National Airspace System (NAS) is a hierarchy as you described, composed of ARTCC (aka Air Route Traffic Control Center, aka "Center"), TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach Control Facilities or "Approach"), and Towers. Approach typically "owns" Class B and C airspaces and some adjacent space and is who will clear you into them if required. Sounds to me as if you had a pretty good understanding of it, with the exception that ARTCC isn't the whole system but is just the Centers.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/

 

[EdFred]

Alright, yes, Norcal is short for "Norcal Approach" - they are responsible for all incoming flights into the bay area (I think anyway). The SFO TAC shows multiple sectors with different Norcal freqs, but they all say "contact within 30m" or something like that.

With that said, I'm a little confused about the OAK Center comment. I thought the way ARTCC is organized is hierarchically - you got the centers on top (like OAK ctr, LA ctr, Denver ctr etc), then folks like Norcal, then the actual airport specific folks. It seems from your comment like I understand this wrong. Do you (or anyone else) mind explaining this to me? it seems awfully important (is anyone else confused about this, or am I the only one?)

The one comment I will make though is that if I'm flying with OAK ctr (such as when I leave the bay area in a direction away from it), they usually do hand me off to (say) Norcal or Travis approach when I come back, although once they didn't and just terminated when I got about 12m out of CCR.

No, it's not a hierarchy as far as control goes. Altitude wise it is - kinda.

Think of center as controlling everything that's not handled by tower and approach. If you were to fly from San Fran to Seattle you would talk to NorCal, then Oakland Center, then Seattle Center (Maybe Portland Approach if you were close enough to PDX then Seattle Center again), then Seattle Approach.

 

[onwards]

The National Airspace System (NAS) is a hierarchy as you described, composed of ARTCC (aka Air Route Traffic Control Center, aka "Center"), TRACON (Terminal Radar Approach Control Facilities or "Approach"), and Towers. Approach typically "owns" Class B and C airspaces and some adjacent space and is who will clear you into them if required. Sounds to me as if you had a pretty good understanding of it, with the exception that ARTCC isn't the whole system but is just the Centers.

Thank you sir.

So OAK ctr (for example) CAN'T clear me into the SFO Bravo, but Norcal can. Right? can SFO tower do that too?

Also, let's craft a hypothetical. Say I am flying with OAK ctr on the radio, and get to a point where I'm starting to feel a bit hot under the collar because I should have been switched off to Norcal Approach... (I'm coming south and am over the Richmond-San Rafael bridge)... what do I do? what is the proper or polite way to, I guess, alert OAK ctr that they forgot about me and should switch me over to Norcal? MUST they switch me off? what if OAK ctr doesn't and I do enter the OAK Charlie while on the radio with them with my assigned squawk code, am I in violation then, or are they?

Sorry for all the questions, this is turning out to be very educational.

 

[gprellwitz]

No, it's not a hierarchy as far as control goes. Altitude wise it is - kinda.

Think of center as controlling everything that's not handled by tower and approach. If you were to fly from San Fran to Seattle you would talk to NorCal, then Oakland Center, then Seattle Center (Maybe Portland Approach if you were close enough to PDX then Seattle Center again), then Seattle Approach.

I don't know, I've always thought about it as an hierarchy, with tower being the most detailed, approach being wrapped around that, and center being around approach. But I think we're describing the same thing.

 

[thomascannon]

With that said, I'm a little confused about the OAK Center comment. I thought the way ARTCC is organized is hierarchically - you got the centers on top (like OAK ctr, LA ctr, Denver ctr etc), then folks like Norcal, then the actual airport specific folks. It seems from your comment like I understand this wrong. Do you (or anyone else) mind explaining this to me? it seems awfully important (is anyone else confused about this, or am I the only one?)

The one comment I will make though is that if I'm flying with OAK ctr (such as when I leave the bay area in a direction away from it), they usually do hand me off to (say) Norcal or Travis approach when I come back, although once they didn't and just terminated when I got about 12m out of CCR.

You have it right. "Center" is a huge swath of real estate. This is how they look on a map:

http://aviationweather.gov/products/cwsu/

Say you are flying from LAX to SFO. You'll start at the tower, then LA "approach" (or "departure" depending on what they feel like calling it) then as you move further away you get handed to LA Center, than Oakland Center, then Norcal Approach, then the SFO tower.

Another typical scenario is a Bravo transition from CCR to, say, SQL (San Carlos). If you're at 2,500 you'll get handed from Norcal to the SFO tower, to the SQL tower. However, if you're at 3,500, you'll stay with Norcal the whole way until getting handed to SQL's tower. Are you still in SFO's airspace? Absolutely. However, Norcal manages the traffic higher up. This is handy if you're already up that high -- you can request transition at 3,500 and they'll give it to you and save you some fiddling with the radio.

Can Center clear you into Bravo? I would be very surprised if they could not, but I've never seen it done as they hand you to Approach control before you get there. However, if I was heading along and getting close to Bravo, I'd ask Center if I was cleared into Bravo to remind them that I exist as they clearly have long forgotten about me. Another trick it to get the destination's ATIS and chime in with a, "I have Victor at SQL..." to wake them up. Expect to get handed off in a hurry.

As for entering Charlie or Delta, if you're talking to anybody, you're good, so long as you hear your tail number. If you get, "Aircraft calling, stand by," then you are NOT cleared. If they say "123AB, stand by," you're cleared to enter. Slightly confusing but the second example is considered "two-way communication" where the first is not.

 

[gprellwitz]

Thank you sir.

So OAK ctr (for example) CAN'T clear me into the SFO Bravo, but Norcal can. Right? can SFO tower do that too?

Also, let's craft a hypothetical. Say I am flying with OAK ctr on the radio, and get to a point where I'm starting to feel a bit hot under the collar because I should have been switched off to Norcal Approach... (I'm coming south and am over the Richmond-San Rafael bridge)... what do I do? what is the proper or polite way to, I guess, alert OAK ctr that they forgot about me and should switch me over to Norcal? MUST they switch me off? what if OAK ctr doesn't and I do enter the OAK Charlie while on the radio with them with my assigned squawk code, am I in violation then, or are they?

Sorry for all the questions, this is turning out to be very educational.

You're not going to get to SFO tower without going through NORCAL, so no, tower really can't clear you into the Bravo. And if you're worried about OAK Ctr having forgotten you, I'd just say something like "OAK Ctr, did I miss a handoff?" and it'll be straightened out. And I'm pretty sure that they would be in violation, not you, if you flew on into the Class Charlie. If, OTOH, you went on into the Bravo, you'd be in violation too, because you never heard the magic words "cleared into the Class Bravo."

 

[EdFred]

I don't know, I've always thought about it as an hierarchy, with tower being the most detailed, approach being wrapped around that, and center being around approach. But I think we're describing the same thing.

I'm thinking in terms of power, as in center doesn't control approach...

 

[EdFred]

Can Center clear you into Bravo?

I'm not sure under what condition they would ever do that, since if you are at altitude that would put you into a Bravo you would be handed off to the Bravo Approach before you got to the Bravo airspace.

 

[onwards]

Thomascannon, thank you mightily. This is fantastic information (for me, anyway... I hope someone else will benefit though). A couple of further questions/comments:

Another typical scenario is a Bravo transition from CCR to, say, SQL (San Carlos). If you're at 2,500 you'll get handed from Norcal to the SFO tower, to the SQL tower. However, if you're at 3,500, you'll stay with Norcal the whole way until getting handed to SQL's tower. Are you still in SFO's airspace? Absolutely. However, Norcal manages the traffic higher up. This is handy if you're already up that high -- you can request transition at 3,500 and they'll give it to you and save you some fiddling with the radio.

So even WITHIN an airspace, they have internal divisions? is it my responsibility to be aware of them? I don't think those distinctions are on the chart, or am I missing your intent?

Can Center clear you into Bravo? I would be very surprised if they could not, but I've never seen it done

It DID happen to me about a month ago. I posted about it as my first encounter with Bravo, although it wasn't a flight through Bravo like yesterday, but rather an unintended "clipping" of one at the edges. They were silent for a long time then suddenly I heard my tail number and "cleared through Bravo" just as I was starting my final descent into CCR coming from the southeast. Apparently I was right at the edge of the outer shelf over the mountains. I was with OAK ctr at the time.

As for entering Charlie or Delta, if you're talking to anybody, you're good, so long as you hear your tail number. If you get, "Aircraft calling, stand by," then you are NOT cleared. If they say "123AB, stand by," you're cleared to enter. Slightly confusing but the second example is considered "two-way communication" where the first is not.

Yes, that IS confusing. I think this was mentioned in training a couple times, but it's a hard distinction to remember unless you've had to deal with it several times. I wish I could find a good mnemonic for this concept (TYON? Tail Yes Otherwise No?).

It also brings up another unusual thing from last night; I was nearing CCR still within tower hours and at 7 miles out finally managed to get a word edgewise to Norcal that I was seeing the airport, at which point they handed me off to CCR tower (including asking me to maintain squawk code) instead of terminating services. I've never had that experience before. Is it because they should have terminated earlier and forgot? normally they terminate when I am a bit over 10m out to give me a chance to call tower on my own.

 

[Palmpilot]

NorCal (i believe) is an approach control and therefore would have jurisdiction (maybe by letter of agreement) over both the Class B and the Oakland Class C.

Right.

The ATC facility having jurisdiction over the SFO class B airspace is Norcal Approach, except for the surface area, where it's San Francisco Tower.

The ATC facility providing air traffic services in the OAK class C airspace is Norcal Approach, except for the surface area, where it's Oakland Tower.

The ATC facility providing air traffic services in the SJC class C airspace is Norcal Approach, except for the surface area, where it's San Jose Tower.

So unless you're in a portion controlled by one of the towers, it's the same ATC facility for all three airspace areas. I don't know whether it's possible for Norcal Approach to have a letter of agreement with itself, but that's not the pilot's problem, because none of those facilities is going to clear you to enter the class B airspace unless the controller giving the clearance has the authority to do so, and you don't need a clearance to enter class C, only two-way communication (including controller acknowledgement of your call sign - see AIM 3-2-4c3, notes 1 and 3).

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.18&idno=14

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.17&idno=14

 

[Palmpilot]

You're not going to get to SFO tower without going through NORCAL, so no, tower really can't clear you into the Bravo.

There are exceptions to that. For example, if you're transitioning up the peninsula through San Carlos Airport's class D, San Carlos Tower will tell you to contact San Francisco Tower, and you have to wait for San Franciso Tower to clear you before you enter the class B.

And of course, if you're departing SFO, you got your class B clearance when San Francisco Tower said "cleared for takeoff."

 

[Palmpilot]

Can Center clear you into Bravo? I would be very surprised if they could not, but I've never seen it done as they hand you to Approach control before you get there.

When you're VFR, I don't think Center could clear you into class B, because 91.131 says that you need a clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace, and that would be Approach, not Center, with one exception: When you receive an IFR clearance (from Center or anyone else) that clearance serves as your clearance to enter any class B airspace on your route of flight, as long as you don't cancel IFR.

 

[EdFred]

There are exceptions to that. For example, if you're transitioning up the peninsula through San Carlos Airport's class D, San Carlos Tower will tell you to contact San Francisco Tower, and you have to wait for San Franciso Tower to clear you before you enter the class B.

And of course, if you're departing SFO, you got your class B clearance when San Francisco Tower said "cleared for takeoff."

Aren't you already in it since at that point it goes to the SFC. The charts do say:

xxx
---
SFC

not

xxx
---
00(.01)

 

[EdFred]

When you're VFR, I don't think Center could clear you into class B, because 91.131 says that you need a clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace, and that would be Approach, not Center, with one exception: When you receive an IFR clearance (from Center or anyone else) that clearance serves as your clearance to enter any class B airspace on your route of flight, as long as you don't cancel IFR.

And at that point even FSS can clear you into the Bravo, as I get a clearance from them on the ground sometimes. (Ok, so they call behind the scenes to a controller.)

 

[Palmpilot]

It DID happen to me about a month ago. I posted about it as my first encounter with Bravo, although it wasn't a flight through Bravo like yesterday, but rather an unintended "clipping" of one at the edges. They were silent for a long time then suddenly I heard my tail number and "cleared through Bravo" just as I was starting my final descent into CCR coming from the southeast.

Maybe they called Norcal Approach to get the clearance for you.

Norcal gave me an after-the-fact class B clearance when I was transitioning Oakland Tower's airspace once. I had inadvertently climbed into the class B while responding to a traffic call, and after Tower handed me off to Approach, the approach controller volunteered the clearance. I thought that was a very friendly thing to do.

 

[Palmpilot]

And at that point even FSS can clear you into the Bravo, as I get a clearance from them on the ground sometimes. (Ok, so they call behind the scenes to a controller.)

But doesn't the FSS always say "ATC clears..." in that case?

 

[COFlyBoy]

Thank you sir.

So OAK ctr (for example) CAN'T clear me into the SFO Bravo, but Norcal can. Right? can SFO tower do that too?

Also, let's craft a hypothetical. Say I am flying with OAK ctr on the radio, and get to a point where I'm starting to feel a bit hot under the collar because I should have been switched off to Norcal Approach... (I'm coming south and am over the Richmond-San Rafael bridge)... what do I do? what is the proper or polite way to, I guess, alert OAK ctr that they forgot about me and should switch me over to Norcal? MUST they switch me off? what if OAK ctr doesn't and I do enter the OAK Charlie while on the radio with them with my assigned squawk code, am I in violation then, or are they?

Sorry for all the questions, this is turning out to be very educational.

1- OAK center is not the controlling ATC for SFO Bravo, so no they cannot clear you into the Bravo. NorCal can because it is their airspace. SFO tower does whenever you take off. However, if you call them to enter the Bravo from outside, they will likely tell you to call NorCal.
2- Ask OAK Center for clearance into the Bravo or Charlie, that'll nicely remind them thay you're there. They'll likely tell you to remain clear of the Bravo/Charlie and then hand you to approach, who will hopefully let you enter.
3- If you enter the SFO Bravo w/o clearance from NorCal approach you are in violation. If you enter the OAK Charlie w/o radio contact with NorCal approach you are inviolation. (Notice: Clearance for Bravo, Radio contact for Charlie)

 

[EdFred]

But doesn't the FSS always say "ATC clears..." in that case?

No, when I call on the phone it sounds just like I'm talking to CD.

"Cleared to (destination) as filed..." They never say "ATC says,..."