Cleared into Class B, cleared into underlying Class D?

coloradobluesky

coloradobluesky

En-Route
Gone West
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
3,621
Location
Colorado
Display Name
Display name:
coloradobluesky
The details are I'm VFR and obtained a clearance into Denver's class B airspace. I'm flying north at 10,500' and he gives me a "descend pilots desertion" with not mention of Metro's airspace. I'm right at 8000+ over Metro airspace. Top of Metro class D is 8000'. Am I cleared into Metro's airspace? I figured no, just to be on the safe side, although I really don't know. In this case, my destination wasn't Metro, though I suppose that would be another question.

I'm pretty sure a Class B controller can clear a pilot into an underlying Class D, in fact I've been in that situation (Santa Monica). But what about if they make no mention of the Class D, just a general clearance to proceed and me proceeding leads me into Class D?
 
The ATC Handbook requires approach controllers to takes care of any airspace coordination for transiting aircraft. It even goes so far as to say,

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
Click to expand...

In the case of Metro and DEN TRACON, there is also a Letter of Agreement. If you are not using flight following and call Metro for a transit above a certain altitude (but within its Class D) they will probably tell you to call Approach.

But in your situation, a discretionary descent, were I, say, heading to KAPA, I'd probably keep that 8000 or query Approach how much lower into BJC's airspace I could go.
 
The controller you are talking to is responsible for coordinating with the tower. No action required on your part other than to switch to tower when directed to do so.

Bob Gardner
 
I'm based at Centennial and transition the Denver class B VFR all the time while receiving flight following from Denver Approach. If you descend low enough, they'll hand you off to the class D tower, who will hand you back to approach when you leave the class D.
 
Can the Class B controller just vector you on it?
Or does he have to mention something about the Class D?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Can the Class B controller just vector you on it?
Or does he have to mention something about the Class D?
Click to expand...
They'll usually say, Cessna 12345, airport is at your 12 o clock 8 miles, report field in sight. Which you would respond airport in sight (if you have it). Approach will then say Cessna 12345 squawk VFR , frequency change approved, tower on 123.4
 
coloradobluesky said:
Can the Class B controller just vector you on it?
Or does he have to mention something about the Class D?
Click to expand...

Depends on the MOU.

Approach may have control over the top thousand feet of Class D. Or may not.

If in doubt, ask.

I've had SoCal "approve transition" through PMD Class D with no handoff. Closer to home, NorCal generally hands you off to the Class D tower. But I haven't tried to do that at all the local Class D airports. A low altitude flight around 2000 has a lot of handoffs. It would be nice if NorCal could just handle them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Depends on the MOU.

Approach may have control over the top thousand feet of Class D. Or may not.

If in doubt, ask.

I've had SoCal "approve transition" through PMD Class D with no handoff. Closer to home, NorCal generally hands you off to the Class D tower. But I haven't tried to do that at all the local Class D airports. A low altitude flight around 2000 has a lot of handoffs. It would be nice if NorCal could just handle them.
Click to expand...

Yeah some have approach controlling within Class D limits and some don't. For example approach will normally transition you directly through Mather Class D without even handing you off to the tower. At nearby Executive you will always get handed off to the tower prior to entering their Class D.
 
No "clearance" is required for the class D.
Never hurts to ask.

I was getting advisories from C90 shooting up the lakeshore when I suddenly though to ask if they were going to coordinate to Miegs and they dumped me. Had just enough time to say Miegs Tower, Navion 5327K 2000' Hotels northbound.
 
flyingron said:
No "clearance" is required for the class D.
Never hurts to ask.

I was getting advisories from C90 shooting up the lakeshore when I suddenly though to ask if they were going to coordinate to Miegs and they dumped me. Had just enough time to say Miegs Tower, Navion 5327K 2000' Hotels northbound.
Click to expand...

No - but there is a "gotcha." Let's say approach doesn't have control authority within a certain Class D and they give you an altitude restriction that effectively keeps you out of it, but they don't explicitly say "stay clear of Class D." You aren't cleared to go in it by virtue of two way communication.

Difference is if they control the airspace within Class D, you would have just deviated from an ATC instruction and busting an altitude isn't normally a big deal. If they didn't, you would have busted Class D airspace as well, which normally is a big deal.

(This scenario actually happened to someone.)
 
Yeah, but the altitude restriction usually has some buffer when they do that.

It can be a small buffer, though. OAK transitions are only 100 feet below Class B. But most of the ones I've encountered are more like 500 feet.
 
Are the controllers really all on the same page with this? Is it really ALWAYS up to the Class B controller to coordinate the pilot into the adjacent Class D? or just sometimes?
 
Somewhere where pilots never see/look, there is a coordination letter between the TRACON and the tower. They know where the dividing lines are, and will coordinate as needed. You don't need them to tell you anything, as there is no required clearance language to enter Class D, if you have made contact with the controller. In this case, TRACON will have done that for you.

Never hurts to ask if you are curious, but not needed, and if the frequency is busy, leave it alone.

Jeff
 
Sac Arrow said:
No - but there is a "gotcha." Let's say approach doesn't have control authority within a certain Class D and they give you an altitude restriction that effectively keeps you out of it, but they don't explicitly say "stay clear of Class D." You aren't cleared to go in it by virtue of two way communication. [...] (This scenario actually happened to someone.)
Click to expand...

Doesn't strike me as much of a gotcha. The pilot not only should have complied with the altitude restriction, they should also have been aware that that restriction kept them out of the Class D.
 
Does it work the same way other way around? Can a Class D Tower vector you into Class B?
 
Approach is required to get the transition approval from tower. See 2-1-16 (b) of the .65. Don't bother asking if they've done the coordination. It's on their backs. If they want you to call the tower because their specific traffic condition warrants it, then they'll switch you.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Are the controllers really all on the same page with this? Is it really ALWAYS up to the Class B controller to coordinate the pilot into the adjacent Class D? or just sometimes?
Click to expand...

From the controller's handbook:

2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.
b. Before you issue control instructions directly or relay through another source to an aircraft which is within another controller's area of jurisdiction that will change that aircraft's heading, route, speed, or altitude, ensure that coordination has been accomplished with each of the controllers listed below whose area of jurisdiction is affected by those instructions unless otherwise specified by a letter of agreement or a facility directive:
1. The controller within whose area of jurisdiction the control instructions will be issued.
2. The controller receiving the transfer of control.
3. Any intervening controller(s) through whose area of jurisdiction the aircraft will pass.
c. If you issue control instructions to an aircraft through a source other than another controller (e.g., ARINC, AFSS/FSS, another pilot) ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished with any controllers listed in subparas b1, 2, and 3, whose area of jurisdiction is affected by those instructions unless otherwise specified by a letter of agreement or a facility directive.

Bob Gardner
 
MAKG1 said:
If you don't hear the magic words "cleared into Class B," you have some answering to do even if you were vectored or restricted into the airspace.
Click to expand...
Those aren't the exact "magic words" per FAA Order 7110.65, and there are a couple of different phrasings cited there, so you may have to do some tooth-pulling to hear them. I've heard too many controllers elide the textbook phraseology into things like "22RL, maintain 3000 through the Bravo direct Gaithersburg" to get really, really picky about the words used. Just use some common sense on this and you'll be fine, because the controllers really aren't trying to trick you into a violation. OTOH, just because one controller says "fly heading 020" before handing you off to another TRACON 20 miles outside the Bravo, don't think you're cleared into that Bravo if that heading will take you in there.
 
acrophile said:
Doesn't strike me as much of a gotcha. The pilot not only should have complied with the altitude restriction, they should also have been aware that that restriction kept them out of the Class D.
Click to expand...

Yes on the first part, and no on the second part. The pilot doesn't and isn't expected to know who the controlling ATC facility is in all cases. It's not something you can readily look up.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yes on the first part, and no on the second part. The pilot doesn't and isn't expected to know who the controlling ATC facility is in all cases. It's not something you can readily look up.
Click to expand...

But airspace familiarity is the pilot's responsibility. You said the altitude restriction precluded entering the Class D, right? That should have been apparent from the charts.
 
acrophile said:
But airspace familiarity is the pilot's responsibility. You said the altitude restriction precluded entering the Class D, right? That should have been apparent from the charts.
Click to expand...

There are two, entirely, completely separate issues here. The question is, are you clear to enter Class D by virtue of maintaining two way communication with ATC?

Let's say they didn't give you an altitude restriction and you were flying above it. Are you free to enter then?
 
Sac Arrow said:
are you clear to enter Class D by virtue of maintaining two way communication with ATC?
Click to expand...

If ATC gives you an instruction that precludes entry--for example, "Remain outside Class D" or "Maintain 3,000" (where the Class D ceiling is lower than that)--then no, the two-way communication does not give you permission to enter.

Let's say they didn't give you an altitude restriction and you were flying above it. Are you free to enter then?
Click to expand...

It depends. If I'm talking to the Class D's primary airport's control tower, then sure. If I'm talking to another controller who I know has authority for that Class D, then yes. If I don't know whether the controller I'm talking to has that authority, I'd ask for confirmation rather than assuming I have permission to descend into the Class D.

But in the actual situation under discussion, the pilot should have been aware that the Class D was below the instructed altitude, and that the instruction therefore precluded entry.
 
Last edited:
acrophile said:
If ATC gives you an instruction that precludes entry--for example, "Remain outside Class D" or "Maintain 3,000" (where the Class D ceiling is lower than that)--then no, the two-way communication does not give you permission to enter.



It depends. If I'm talking to the Class D's primary airport's control tower, then sure. If I'm talking to another controller who I know has authority for that Class D, then yes. If I don't know whether the controller I'm talking to has that authority, I'd ask for confirmation rather than assuming I have permission to descend into the Class D.

But in the actual situation under discussion, the pilot should have been aware that the Class D was below the instructed altitude, and that the instruction therefore precluded entry.
Click to expand...

The pilot (not me by the way) assumed the altitude restriction was advisory in nature and believed to be otherwise clear to descend in to Class D airspace. Obviously a bad assumption. I bring this up because a lot of people aren't aware that approach or center may or may not be the jurisdictional ATC facility for the Class D per 91.129.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The pilot (not me by the way) assumed the altitude restriction was advisory in nature and believed to be otherwise clear to descend in to Class D airspace. Obviously a bad assumption. I bring this up because a lot of people aren't aware that approach or center may or may not be the jurisdictional ATC facility for the Class D per 91.129.
Click to expand...

Ok, fair enough. It's always a good idea to discuss anecdotes that others can learn from.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The pilot (not me by the way) assumed the altitude restriction was advisory in nature and believed to be otherwise clear to descend in to Class D airspace. Obviously a bad assumption. I bring this up because a lot of people aren't aware that approach or center may or may not be the jurisdictional ATC facility for the Class D per 91.129.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. Did the word "advise" appear anywhere in the instruction? If not, what was the basis for his thinking the instruction was not an instruction?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Hmmm. Did the word "advise" appear anywhere in the instruction? If not, what was the basis for his thinking the instruction was not an instruction?
Click to expand...

Don't know the answer to that one. This subject has come up before, and the controllers' consensus was that a controller has no authority to issue directives to VFR aircraft outside of positive control areas (other than remain clear.) That said, I have gotten directives before on FF and I've abided by them.

But I'm no expert here, maybe a controller will clarify.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Don't know the answer to that one. This subject has come up before, and the controllers' consensus was that a controller has no authority to issue directives to VFR aircraft outside of positive control areas (other than remain clear.) That said, I have gotten directives before on FF and I've abided by them.

But I'm no expert here, maybe a controller will clarify.
Click to expand...


In controlled airspace they have authority to issue clearances / instructions to VFR aircraft. There was a CC letter that came out a year ago on the matter. If one was to get an altitude restriction in Class B airspace, whether that's for aircraft sep or to stay above a Class D, that's a no brainer...comply. In fact, I just got an altitude restriction yesterday while in CHA's Class C for arriving IFR traffic.
 

Attachments

  • Karas - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf
    66.6 KB · Views: 7
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top