Cleared for visual: straight in?

DrMack

DrMack

Line Up and Wait
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DrMack
Whenever I return home (KRBD) and it's VMC, DFW TRACON always lines me up for the active before handing off to tower. When I contact tower I always say, "Executive tower, 704PA cleared for visual runway xx." They usually say, "4PA cleared to land runway xx" or to follow some VFR traffic ahead in the pattern. My question is, does the tower always expect me to fly straight in or do they ever expect that IFR traffic like me might join the pattern either at the 45 downwind or base leg? I always assumed that straight in is expected since that is usually how approach has lined me up but I'm really not sure and I'm thinking that maybe I've just been lucky with my assumption that a straight in is the expected maneuver so that's what I do.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
 
DrMack said:
Whenever I return home (KRBD) and it's VMC, DFW TRACON always lines me up for the active before handing off to tower. When I contact tower I always say, "Executive tower, 704PA cleared for visual runway xx." They usually say, "4PA cleared to land runway xx" or to follow some VFR traffic ahead in the pattern. My question is, does the tower always expect me to fly straight in or do they ever expect that IFR traffic like me might join the pattern either at the 45 downwind or base leg? I always assumed that straight in is expected since that is usually how approach has lined me up but I'm really not sure and I'm thinking that maybe I've just been lucky with my assumption that a straight in is the expected maneuver so that's what I do.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
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I think you are assuming right. If they line you up strait in and clear you for the visual then you are right that is what they are expecting you to do. If they want you to something other than that they will tell you. For example: "Report right base" or "enter left downwind for XX."
 
DrMack said:
Whenever I return home (KRBD) and it's VMC, DFW TRACON always lines me up for the active before handing off to tower. When I contact tower I always say, "Executive tower, 704PA cleared for visual runway xx." They usually say, "4PA cleared to land runway xx" or to follow some VFR traffic ahead in the pattern. My question is, does the tower always expect me to fly straight in or do they ever expect that IFR traffic like me might join the pattern either at the 45 downwind or base leg? I always assumed that straight in is expected since that is usually how approach has lined me up but I'm really not sure and I'm thinking that maybe I've just been lucky with my assumption that a straight in is the expected maneuver so that's what I do.
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They're expecting straight-in. At a towered field the pattern is whatever the tower says it is. If you're lined up for the runway and tower says nothing but cleared to land, continue straight-in and land.
 
roncachamp said:
They're expecting straight-in. At a towered field the pattern is whatever the tower says it is. If you're lined up for the runway and tower says nothing but cleared to land, continue straight-in and land.
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Steven, if you go missed on a visual, are you still IFR or is it automatically cancelled and become VFR?
 
The AIM info on Visuals is less than a page but these probably answer your question:

5-4-23. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport.


e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.

g. Authorization to conduct a visual approach is an IFR authorization and does not alter IFR flight plan cancellation responsibility.

h. Radar service is automatically terminated, without advising the pilot, when the aircraft is instructed to change to advisory frequency.​
 
flyingron said:
The AIM info on Visuals is less than a page but these probably answer your question:

5-4-23. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport.


e. A visual approach is not an IAP and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If a landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances.

g. Authorization to conduct a visual approach is an IFR authorization and does not alter IFR flight plan cancellation responsibility.

h. Radar service is automatically terminated, without advising the pilot, when the aircraft is instructed to change to advisory frequency.​
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Yeah the uncontrolled stuff is clear cut. I was referring to a controlled field. I know some facilities look at the approach being complete over landing threshold. If the aircraft does a go around then it's treated as VFR and given advisories and sequencing. Just wondering how they handle a visual go around at GRB.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah the uncontrolled stuff is clear cut. I was referring to a controlled field. I know some facilities look at the approach being complete over landing threshold. If the aircraft does a go around then it's treated as VFR and given advisories and sequencing. Just wondering how they handle a visual go around at GRB.
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You do whatever it takes. Minimums for visual approaches at GRB are 2300' ceiling and 7 miles visibility so there's really nothing to it.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah the uncontrolled stuff is clear cut. I was referring to a controlled field. I know some facilities look at the approach being complete over landing threshold. If the aircraft does a go around then it's treated as VFR and given advisories and sequencing. Just wondering how they handle a visual go around at GRB.
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I did a go around from a visual approach at a controlled airport a few months ago. It seems as if they asked if we wanted to go back to approach or cancel IFR and do a visual pattern. I thought it was a strange question as there were no clouds even close but I figured they had to ask.
 
How would you fly a published missed from a visual approach? Which one would you fly? IFR isn't based on pilots making up what they are going to fly on the ...well, on the fly. It's all based on expectations.

If you go missed on a visual then enter the pattern and circle back around. They aren't going to clear you for a visual approach if a TP can't be flown VMC.


As for straight ins...how else would you do it? If you're on final (extended maybe) when you're cleared for the visual or even cleared to land then what else could you do? What comes after final besides landing? Turning off to re-enter would NOT be expected by anyone...tower at towered fields or pilots in the pattern at uncontrolled.

I fly North of 200 visual approaches a year and have NEVER had a problem working my way into the mix. The closest time I've ever come to an 'issue' was a speed problem between me and the plane in front. He wasn't going to clear the runway in time so we just continued on the upwind over the runway turned crosswind and did another circuit in the pattern. No problem at all and that was only once in my life.
 
Captain said:
How would you fly a published missed from a visual approach? Which one would you fly? IFR isn't based on pilots making up what they are going to fly on the ...well, on the fly. It's all based on expectations.

If you go missed on a visual then enter the pattern and circle back around. They aren't going to clear you for a visual approach if a TP can't be flown VMC.


As for straight ins...how else would you do it? If you're on final (extended maybe) when you're cleared for the visual or even cleared to land then what else could you do? What comes after final besides landing? Turning off to re-enter would NOT be expected by anyone...tower at towered fields or pilots in the pattern at uncontrolled.

I fly North of 200 visual approaches a year and have NEVER had a problem working my way into the mix. The closest time I've ever come to an 'issue' was a speed problem between me and the plane in front. He wasn't going to clear the runway in time so we just continued on the upwind over the runway turned crosswind and did another circuit in the pattern. No problem at all and that was only once in my life.
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There isn't a missed approach procedure. It's treated as a go around. My question was if during that go around does the aircraft retain it's IFR or is it automatically canceled. I heard different interpretations from different controller friends of mine. From " no, once aircraft is over landing threshold the Visual Approach is complete and they enter the tower pattern VFR. They aren't cleared for a visual approach to circle. It's a straight in." Also heard "There is no missed for a Visual, but it does not cancel the IFR."

I never once had a go around (that I knew of)during a visual when I worked approach but I'm pretty sure if I did twr would just send him to the twr pattern VFR. I probably would never even know they went missed. It's all about separation though. That's why I was wondering how Steven handles it at GRB. Are they providing IFR sep as the aircraft goes around to enter the twr pattern?
 
Captain said:
How would you fly a published missed from a visual approach?
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That's one of the reasons I thought it was a strange question. Not to mention the fact that there is no IFR approach to this particular runway.
 
Velocity173 said:
There isn't a missed approach procedure. It's treated as a go around. My question was if during that go around does the aircraft retain it's IFR or is it automatically canceled.
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My understanding, and hopefully Steven can clarify, is that depending on the reason for the go-around, you the pilot need to decide whether you want to go back to Approach to be re-sequenced for another approach, or stay visual and enter the pattern for landing. Regardless of what you and the controller decide, you are not automatically cancelled.
 
Lets answer te docs question. You call in and what you should tell the tower:

"Redbird tower, N12345, inbound with ATIS"

"N12345, Redbird tower, cleared to land runway xxxx

Now, if they clear you for runway 13 and the winds are 270@12 you kind of have a decision to make. As in "request runway zzz". It'll be at least vfr.
 
My experience is based on operations here in Jackson Hole.. 95% of the time when the weather is VFR ,SLC center will dump IFR traffic 12 miles out while on final with the radio verboligy " radar services terminated, contact JAC tower on 118.075..... The tower guys will clear them to land, (once they are on the ground) , tower will get on the landline and cancel the flight as arrived. So I assume they would not call center if a missed or low pass is performed and they would use the terminology Mari stated a few posts up.. and leave it up to the pilot to recontact 133.25 / SLC or fly the visual back to the runway on tower freq.
 
comanchepilot said:
Lets answer te docs question. You call in and what you should tell the tower:

"Redbird tower, N12345, inbound with ATIS"

"N12345, Redbird tower, cleared to land runway xxxx

Now, if they clear you for runway 13 and the winds are 270@12 you kind of have a decision to make. As in "request runway zzz". It'll be at least vfr.
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Your premise is off. When cleared for the visual and told to contact tower you don't give a VFR initial report. Instead you say, "XXX Tower, N12345 with you visual 26".

See the difference? You don't tell them you have ATIS, you already told approach or Center and you TELL THEM which runway you've been cleared for the approach. They just clear you to land or give you sequence instructions.

The IFR stops on the ground, not when approach tells you to call the tower.

Also, if the winds were 270@12 I wouldn't be on the visual approach to 13. See how that works?
 
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If you are IFR, get cleared for a visual approach, and for any reason cannot complete the visual approach, you are still IFR but in a sort of no-man's land. The only thing that terminates is radar service, but that terminated when you switched to the Tower. However, you have no clearance for any route at all beyond the runway, and ATC must provide instructions. Until they do, as the AIM says, remain in visual conditions and don't hit anyone until Tower gives you further instructions, but there is no specific guidance on what to do until you receive those further instructions. If you lose comm at that point (or had lost comm after being cleared for the visual), you are beyond the parameters of 91.185, and you do whatever seems the best way to terminate the flight safely.
 
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Let's please not forget you are VMC when given clearance for a visual approach! The field must be VFR as well. The system protects you. If you screw up a visual approach then you should tear up your instrument rating AND Private license.

VMC means not IMC. It's not hard people...
 
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JimNtexas said:
Arggg! :no::no::no:

Never say 'with you'. Just. Don't. Say. That.
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:) :popcorn:

I broke myself of that habit by saying, "climbing", "level", or "decending" and the altitude.

For a visual it's just, "XXX Tower, Skylane Seven Niner Mike, Visual Runway Y."

Dat's a'plenty.
 
Captain said:
Let's please not forget you are VMC when given clearance for a visual approach! The field must be VFR as well. The system protects you. If you screw up a visual approach then you should tear up your instrument rating AND Private license.

VMC means not IMC. It's not hard people...
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There are other reasons besides visibility and pilot technique that may lead to not being able to complete a visual approach.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you are IFR, get cleared for a visual approach, and for any reason cannot complete the visual approach, you are still IFR but in a sort of no-man's land. The only thing that terminates is radar service, but that terminated when you switched to the Tower. However, you have no clearance for any route at all beyond the runway, and ATC must provide instructions. Until they do, as the AIM says, remain in visual conditions and don't hit anyone until Tower gives you further instructions, but there is no specific guidance on what to do until you receive those further instructions. If you lose comm at that point (or had lost comm after being cleared for the visual), you are beyond the parameters of 91.185, and you do whatever seems the best way to terminate the flight safely.
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Radar service is terminated when switched to the tower only if you're told that radar service is terminated. Many towers have radar.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There are other reasons besides visibility and pilot technique that may lead to not being able to complete a visual approach.
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Visibility shouldn't be a reason for not being able to complete a visual approach. If visibility is poor you shouldn't be doing a visual approach.
 
roncachamp said:
Visibility shouldn't be a reason for not being able to complete a visual approach. If visibility is poor you shouldn't be doing a visual approach.
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Agreed, my point was there are other factors aside from the weather that could prevent you from successfully completing the approach. Captain's comment seemed to suggest that if you have the required vis/cloud clearance to do a visual approach then there is no reason not to be able to complete the approach.
 
I had to do a go-around after being cleared for the visual at Addison due to the fella in front of me not getting off the runway soon enough for me to land. As I began my climb, tower asked if I wanted to cancel IFR. I did and on downwind asked why that was necessary. They explained if I hadn't they would have to turn me back over to approach to coordinate the next approach. If I canceled, I could stay with tower which is what I did. Yes, a bit confusing as it was severe clear. They got to me pretty quickly, didn't really do much but begin a climb before they asked.

In this case, it was class D under the B.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I had to do a go-around after being cleared for the visual at Addison due to the fella in front of me not getting off the runway soon enough for me to land. As I began my climb, tower asked if I wanted to cancel IFR. I did and on downwind asked why that was necessary. They explained if I hadn't they would have to turn me back over to approach to coordinate the next approach. If I canceled, I could stay with tower which is what I did. Yes, a bit confusing as it was severe clear. They got to me pretty quickly, didn't really do much but begin a climb before they asked.

In this case, it was class D under the B.
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That was a similar situation to ours, only we were at Centennial. The tower gave us a go-around for traffic which was still on the runway. What I expected was to hear was, "Enter left traffic." Instead they asked if we wanted to go back to approach or cancel IFR and fly a visual pattern. Other than thinking it was an unexpected question I never gave it much thought until reading this thread.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Agreed, my point was there are other factors aside from the weather that could prevent you from successfully completing the approach. Captain's comment seemed to suggest that if you have the required vis/cloud clearance to do a visual approach then there is no reason not to be able to complete the approach.
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I would say if you have the required vis/cloud clearance to do a visual approach then there is no weather related reason not to be able to complete the approach. There are probably those that would say the wind may not allow it, but that reason would also apply to an IAP.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I had to do a go-around after being cleared for the visual at Addison due to the fella in front of me not getting off the runway soon enough for me to land. As I began my climb, tower asked if I wanted to cancel IFR. I did and on downwind asked why that was necessary. They explained if I hadn't they would have to turn me back over to approach to coordinate the next approach. If I canceled, I could stay with tower which is what I did. Yes, a bit confusing as it was severe clear. They got to me pretty quickly, didn't really do much but begin a climb before they asked.
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Bull. If there's room to fit you in the pattern then there's no need for another approach or to cancel IFR, visual separation can be used.
 
roncachamp said:
Bull. If there's room to fit you in the pattern then there's no need for another approach or to cancel IFR, visual separation can be used.
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Not sure it's bull, based upon my experience at the same base; given the very close proximity of the DFW B space and KDAL, I believe that what Dave describes may be included in the Letter of Agreement between Addison Tower and Regional Approach.
 
SCCutler said:
Not sure it's bull, based upon my experience at the same base; given the very close proximity of the DFW B space and KDAL, I believe that what Dave describes may be included in the Letter of Agreement between Addison Tower and Regional Approach.
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That it appears in a LoA does not mean there's a need for it.
 
roncachamp said:
I would say if you have the required vis/cloud clearance to do a visual approach then there is no weather related reason not to be able to complete the approach.
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No kidding....do you just try to argue with anyone......even those that agree with you?
 
"XXX Tower, N1234 with you Visual 26" is here to stay. Sorry. What problem could you possibly have with "with you"? It's short and cuts to the point. Clear short comms is a good thing. Be happy I never say "any traffic please advise".

As for that other weird point,

Of course there are reasons to abandon a visual approach besides weather. My comment was in response to the 'youre in no-mans land' comment. No, you are not in "no-mans" land. You are visual and can enter the pattern or go back to approach and shoot another approach...your choice. And it's a choice made easier by the fact that you obviously have enough good weather to have options. They don't give visual approaches when the weather is poor enough to limit choices. That's all.

Remember, I'm the guy who plans on a moose walking on the runway on every approach.
 
Captain said:
"XXX Tower, N1234 with you Visual 26" is here to stay. Sorry. What problem could you possibly have with "with you"? It's short and cuts to the point. Clear short comms is a good thing. Be happy I never say "any traffic please advise".
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Short, to the point and unnecessary. Drop it, it adds nothing to the transmission. "XXX Tower, N1234..." and the tower knows you're there.
 
"good morning" is unnecessary too. But it's polite and adds to the betterment of the system. I also address controllers as 'sir' and 'ma'am'. Again, unnecessary too. But it greases the skids of communication and I use the terms.

With you, good morning, sir, and ma'am are all here to stay.

Of course it's situational too. If approach is machine gunning instructions I dial way back to just what's required. Most of the time that is not the case. Trust me when I say I'm a professional on the radio. I'm not the problem. Angst would be better aimed at the yolkals gabbing on CTAF tieing up 4 local airports freqs, or the azzbags playing music on guard.
 
Captain said:
Let's please not forget you are VMC when given clearance for a visual approach! The field must be VFR as well. The system protects you. If you screw up a visual approach then you should tear up your instrument rating AND Private license.
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There are plenty of reasons why one might not be able to land out of a visual approach without the pilot concerned have done anything incorrectly, starting with a runway incursion.
 
Ron Levy said:
There are plenty of reasons why one might not be able to land out of a visual approach without the pilot concerned have done anything incorrectly, starting with a runway incursion.
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Of course. I'm the moose guy, remember? Not landing is not 'screwing up the approach'. If there is a runway incursion and you elect to land anyway you screwed up. If the winds shift last minute and you land with a tailwind and go off the end you screwed up. If you go missed and can't enter the pattern or get back to approach for vectors for another approach then you screwed up.

Not being able to figure out what to do is screwing up the approach.
 
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roncachamp said:
Bull. If there's room to fit you in the pattern then there's no need for another approach or to cancel IFR, visual separation can be used.
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Are you saying what I related didn't occur, or what tower did was inappropriate? We do have some newer folks in the tower at times, but I wasn't in a position to disagree.

Dave
 
DrMack said:
Whenever I return home (KRBD) and it's VMC, DFW TRACON always lines me up for the active before handing off to tower. When I contact tower I always say, "Executive tower, 704PA cleared for visual runway xx." They usually say, "4PA cleared to land runway xx" or to follow some VFR traffic ahead in the pattern. My question is, does the tower always expect me to fly straight in or do they ever expect that IFR traffic like me might join the pattern either at the 45 downwind or base leg? I always assumed that straight in is expected since that is usually how approach has lined me up but I'm really not sure and I'm thinking that maybe I've just been lucky with my assumption that a straight in is the expected maneuver so that's what I do.

Sent from my SPH-M930 using Tapatalk 2
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My experience in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic is that the controllers will state the runway in the clearance. Goes like this, after being cleared by Approach and switching to Tower:

Me: "Cirrus 12345 on the visual."
Tower: "Cirrus 12345 runway 23 cleared to land," possibly followed by info on winds, or directions to follow someone or to join some part of the pattern.
 
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