Cleared for the approach(RNAV approaches)

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by John777, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    When you have been cleared for straight in approach, does ATC expects you to go direct to IAF and then IF -> FAF ?

    In the case of RNAV36R at KMCO, http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1612/00571R36R.PDF
    IAF is almost perpendicular to IF.

    Also, in case of VOR16 at KDAB http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1612/00110V16.PDF
    when you cross OMN VOR at 1600ft and descend for final, there is a risk of penetrating class D airspace when the tower is operating. Would you wait until you are clear of lateral boundary of Class D or does approach control knows and takes care of it? (coordinate with class D airspace)
     
  2. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    So if they clear you to BOYAB as the IAF and clear you for the approach then yes they expect you to go to FLOZY and continue inbound without a procedure turn. This is a typical GPS TAA "T" type layout.

    For the VOR approach it will be coordinated--you don't have to worry about the airspace. In any event you will most likely told to change to the tower freq while still inbound to OMN FAF.
     
    John777 likes this.
  3. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,041
    Location:
    Vancouver WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    If ATC has told you "straight in approach" then you have probably already been told to proceed direct to FLOZY. Then you go to SILKY. If you arrive at FLOZY anyway other than via the NoPT route from BOYAB you would be required to make the turn in holding if they hadn't included "straight in" with the approach clearance. If you hadn't already received "direct FLOZY" or "direct FLOZY" wasn't included in the approach clearance, then they have given you an incorrect clearance.
     
  4. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    Thanks.
    For VOR16 into KDAB, it was bit weird because Class D goes upto 1200ft.
    Do you have any credible reference on this?

    John.
     
  5. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    8,671
    Location:
    Lee's Summit, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg Bockelman
    Whose Class D? Besides, doesn't Class D go up to 2,500 feet?

    Also, when you are on an IFR flight plan, airspace classes pretty much don't exist.
     
    gsengle and John777 like this.
  6. mscard88

    mscard88 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,793
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Approach control has LOAs (Letters of Agreement) coordinating IFR arrivals/departures w/ other ATC facilities. In this case they (appr con) have a method (might be altitude, landline, etc) for planes executing approaches. So as Greg points out above, you don't have to be concerned about violating Class D airspace because approach is coordinating you thru that airspace.
     
    John777 likes this.
  7. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    12,198
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If I'm IFR airspace isn't my problem.

    Also it's a class D anyways, so two way communication, which you already have with ATC

    So double fine :)
     
    gsengle likes this.
  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Even if ATC doesn't say "straight in" on that approach, if you are entering the approach at the BOYAB IAF, you are prohibited from flying the procedure turn because of the "NoPT" notation that is printed along the leg that starts at BOYAB. So in that situation, it's going to be straight in even if ATC doesn't say it.
     
    John777 likes this.
  9. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    Thanks everyone, I will find out the LOA for my local airport.
     
  10. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    Why?
     
  11. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    6,823
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173

    In your example, DAB approach is required to get approval with OMN tower before allowing a clearance throug their surface area.

    If there is an LOA allowing automatic approval, it's not something a pilot would need to be concerned about. It's just an LOA between the ATC facilities involved. All the pilot needs to do is comply with the IAP clearance given.
     
    JustinD and John777 like this.
  12. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,352
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    I'm not sure the OP is interested in seeing the forest from the trees.
     
  13. Joshuajayg

    Joshuajayg Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    853
    Location:
    'Merica
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joshua
    That's like saying you are going to go find the surface area survey before you land at an airport.

    Not your job, not your concern, not required, not relevant, etc.

    If ATC says cleared for the approach, just fly it. There aren't airspace makings on approach plates because they don't matter when flying IFR.
     
    John777 likes this.
  14. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    One more question, On RNAV16, you want to circle 7L, when you break out at MDA(H), are we actually looking for one of the visual references for both runway 16 and 7L or one of the runway?

    John.
     
  15. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    Initially 16 as you shoot the approach at the circling MDA until you can see and are in position to transition to 7L at which time you have to maintain visual contact with 7L all the way to landing. If you lose visual contact with 7L at anytime (excluding the aircraft structure temporarily obstructing your view), then you have to immediately go missed. You should also stay at the circling MDA until in a position to make a normal landing.
     
    John777 likes this.
  16. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    Thank you tsts4. When FAA mention the word 'visual contact' what does that mean when it comes to the instrument flying?
    I am just curious here how they come up with that word! :)
     
  17. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,041
    Location:
    Vancouver WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    FAR 91.175 (c) (3)
    You definitely need to be looking for 7L. There is no requirement to see 16. That doesn't mean you can't be looking for 16 first. If looking for and seeing 16 first helps you locate 7L that's fine.
     
  18. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
    Simple--you have "see" the runway the whole time during the circling maneuver. Circling is a 100% visual procedure done at less than normal pattern altitude.
     
  19. luvflyin

    luvflyin Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,041
    Location:
    Vancouver WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Middle English, from Late Latin visualis, from Latin visus, from videre to see. First known use: 15th century. Yeah, I'm bored
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,050
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Why? Purely academic interest?

    There's little or no practical use for the information. Under IFR you are in continuing ATC communication and ATC will sequentially hand you over to the appropriate facility, whatever it is. Even under VFR it's value is minimal. At worst, you call a Class D tower for a transition and they give you a TRACON frequency to call instead.
     
  21. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,653
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    When circling you must see an identifiable part of the airport, (except for temporary blocking by the wing) not necessarily the runway per se, so long as you're at or above circling MDA. You can't leave MDA, however until at least the approach end of the runway of intended landing is in view, and you can make a normal descent to landing.
     
  22. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
  23. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    I looked at the reg and it says intended runway. It should be the runway I am facing on final approch course. Faa neither defines what intended runway is.
     
  24. tsts4

    tsts4 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    485
    Location:
    Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Auburntsts
  25. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,653
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    Look again:

    (e) Missed approach procedures. Each pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, shall immediately execute an appropriate missed approach procedure when either of the following conditions exist:

    (1) Whenever operating an aircraft pursuant to paragraph (c) or (l) of this section and the requirements of that paragraph are not met at either of the following times:

    (i) When the aircraft is being operated below MDA; or

    (ii) Upon arrival at the missed approach point, including a DA/DH where a DA/DH is specified and its use is required, and at any time after that until touchdown.

    (2) Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach.
     
    John777 likes this.
  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,050
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Heck, there are approaches for which the straight-in MDA is above pattern altitude.
     
    John777 likes this.
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    12,147
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    True. The approach I mentioned is an example of that, because it has the same high MDA for both straight-in and circling. (It's also above VFR minimums.)
     
    John777 and midlifeflyer like this.
  28. John777

    John777 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Messages:
    191
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Louis
    According to (2), does that mean any point in the airport not the visual contact with runway 16 when descending below MDA?
    What I understand is that we need to first identify one of the visual reference for the 16 and then the airport.
    John.
     
  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,050
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    It says, "identifiable part of the airport" not "identifiable part of the runway."

    Keep in mind the context of that part if the requirement. It's a practical visibility requirement. When circling, you must circle at or above MDA within a certain radius. 1.3NM to 2.3NM depending on aircraft approach category (A-D). Since the rules are not based on having a GPS to tell distance, it must be done visually. You can't tell how far away you are unless you can see something that tells you where the airport is. Don't visually know where the airport is, go missed because you might hit that tower 5 miles away. Visually know the airport is still right below you, circle until you see the runway or run out of fuel (I'm joking but it makes the point).

    The visual references for the runway are to descend below that MDA.

    The "intended runway" is just every day English. It's any runway the pilot intends to land on (unless, of course prohibited by the procedure). Head down to MDA expecting to land on 20 but, while circling, realize 2 is a better choice, your intended runway is 2.
     
    John777 likes this.
  30. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,653
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    Yes you cannot descend below the CTL MDA until the runway of intended landing meets one of the 91.175 (c) (1), (2), and (3) requirements for descent below MDA. No, you do not need to first identify the runway of intended landing when you start the CTL visual maneuver. But, you must remain within the circling maneuvering area, have the required flight visibility at all times, and then identify the runway of intended landing prior to leaving MDA and when descending below MDA meet all the requirement I stated in the preceding sentence.

    Let me give you an extreme example: KRIV, a former USAF SAC base, now open to civilian operations. Let's say the weather is 800 overcast, visibility 1 mile in rain, wind 150 at 15 knots, gusting to 20 knots. You are not RNAV equipped so your only option is to fly the ILS to Runway 32, then level off at 2,180 and depart the localizer when within the CTL maneuvering area. That would be at least 3 miles from the approach end of Runway 14. No way you will see the approach end of Runway 14 until well along in the visual maneuver
     
    John777 likes this.
  31. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,653
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    Unless the airport has the "C" icon, in which case the CAT C and D circle to land areas are considerably larger than 1.7 or 2.3 n.m., respectively. A and B, little difference.
     
    midlifeflyer and John777 like this.
  32. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,344
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    Sure. Terrain does that all the time. Especially at TVL, there are some big rocks around there. Even the VFR TPA is unusually high.

    The high straight in minimums appear to be due to the missed approach. There is actually no terrain along the final approach course between TVL and the far shore of the lake (19 miles away), but a delayed turn for the missed could be very unpleasant.

    I don't understand why anyone would ever choose the LDA/DME-2 over LDA/DME-1. They differ in their missed approach procedures, but both are over the lake. The other procedure has lower minimums, and the same climb requirements.

    But then, no one in their right mind would ever fly this approach in IMC without FIKI or a stormscope (depending on season).
     
  33. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,653
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    One of them is in the works to be cancelled.
     
  34. JustinD

    JustinD Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    John, I instructed in the daytona area for over a year and a half and my 182 is based in DAB as well, so I'm quite familiar with that approach. On several occasions I've had ATC tell me "remain above the OMN class D" but unless they say that you're IFR and cleared for the approach, do what the chart says you can. If they want/need you to remain above it they'll inform you.
     
    jaybee likes this.