Cleared Class Bravo

MtPJimB

MtPJimB

Pre-takeoff checklist
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RVFlyboy
On an IFR flight plan, transitioning through Class B, do I need to hear ATC clearance for Class B, or does being on the IFR flight plan give me that clearance as part of the IFR clearance?
 
While IFR you are good to go,on flight following you need to be cleared into the bravo
 
The rule is you need a "Clearance." IFR in controlled airspace already requires a clearance. You're good to go.
 
I do not possess my IR ticket yet so please take my feedback with a grain of pepper. Or salt. Or whatever spice you prefer. :)

From what I was taught, IFR clearance has a scope or limit. When obtaining the initial clearance onyhe ground at your departure point, you will USUALLY get cleared all the way to your destination. If you don't and your clearance stops before a class B airspace, you are not cleared into/through that airspace.

If I am weong, please correct me, I would hate to give wrong advice

Regards
Lou
 
BigBadLou said:
I do not possess my IR ticket yet so please take my feedback with a grain of pepper. Or salt. Or whatever spice you prefer. :)

From what I was taught, IFR clearance has a scope or limit. When obtaining the initial clearance onyhe ground at your departure point, you will USUALLY get cleared all the way to your destination. If you don't and your clearance stops before a class B airspace, you are not cleared into/through that airspace.

If I am weong, please correct me, I would hate to give wrong advice

Regards
Lou
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It's not that you are wrong. It's that you are perhaps missing a bit of understanding. IFR in controlled airspace you are always on a clearance. You don't go anywhere without a clearance (absent lost comm). Class B is no different than any other airspace. To quote your sentence with a small change

If your clearance limit stops before a nontowered airport located in Class G airspace where Class E starts at 700 AGL, you are not cleared into/through that airspace.​

Point is, as others said, if you are entering Class B airspace as part of your IFR clearance and instructions, you don;t need to hear any special "magic words."
 
MtPJimB said:
On an IFR flight plan, transitioning through Class B, do I need to hear ATC clearance for Class B, or does being on the IFR flight plan give me that clearance as part of the IFR clearance?
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same with restricted areas. as long as you're IFR, you don't have to ask.
 
rbridges said:
same with restricted areas. as long as you're IFR, you don't have to ask.
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Sometimes you do ask. For example, your clearance might take you around restricted areas. No ham asking whether you can get a shortcut through while airborne.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Sometimes you do ask. For example, your clearance might take you around restricted areas. No ham asking whether you can get a shortcut through while airborne.
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Same for a MOA or any other airspace. If your IFR clearance takes you through it, there's no need to ask further, but if cleared around it, you can still ask to go through-- worst they can say is "no".

Well maybe not -- there's always that grumpy controller who missed the last doughnut in the break room who may get snippy about it, but that's his/her personal problem, not yours. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
Same for a MOA or any other airspace. If your IFR clearance takes you through it, there's no need to ask further, but if cleared around it, you can still ask to go through-- worst they can say is "no".

Well maybe not -- there's always that grumpy controller who missed the last doughnut in the break room who may get snippy about it, but that's his/her personal problem, not yours. ;)
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I double checked once and the controller got a little snippy for asking. Damned if you do... :lol:
 
rbridges said:
I double checked once and the controller got a little snippy for asking. Damned if you do... :lol:
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Yeah, well, I have yet to see any example of the FAA going after a pilot for asking ATC for something ATC had not offered. OTOH, I've seen more than one pilot get burned for assuming something when s/he wasn't sure whether something was OK or not. And I'd rather deal with a controller with a sour attitude in his/her head than an Inspector with a Pilot Deviation report in his/her hand. ;)
 
Controlled airspace, be it class A,B,C,D, MOA, restricted, TFR or any other flavor in IFR flight while on a clearance and while in communication is on the controller. If I as a controller violate this (in the case of a MOA or TFR, because its standard/wake/LOA'd IFR separation everywhere else), it is roughly the same as putting two airplanes too close together.

I don't want to confuse, but the logic when seen from the side of our rules as controllers AND from airspace WX requirements really makes sense.

The class B VFR wx requirements are different than C or D at 3 miles vis and COC. The reasoning is the controller upon issuing a class B clearance when you're VFR is responsible for your separation while inside the B (and I'm responsible in more restrictive terms than in C or D). If you're putting along in C or D you need the same minimum 500 feet below clouds that I as a controller must provide vertical when in the B. The 3 miles vis comes in to play because that's my minimum for even offering a visual approach to an IFR so of course I don't want a VFR guy slinging in scud running with 1 mile vis. Basically on a VFR bravo clearance I'm placing YOUR see and avoid on myself assuming everyone else is following the rules.

When IFR, your separation is on me legally upon issuance of clearance or acceptance of handoff anyway (and again in even more restrictive ways IFR vs VFR in the B). Separating you from airspace or airplanes is now my job. In standard IFR separation I'm saying I will provide 1,000 feet vertical or 3 miles lateral when I buy the handoff or clear you. A bravo clearance means only I'll provided 500 feet vertical and 1.5 miles lateral. Obviously me committing to providing an enhanced degree of separation only to say I'll provide less by adding "Airliner 1234 cleared into the Smithtown class Bravo." is a waste of airtime.

Sorry for the long reply, but I've had a vocal minority of pilots of late being confused about airspace rules either IFR or VFR. Not that I can blame anyone as often as they seem to change.
 
Note however, while controllers are not supposed to route you in P-areas, the rules put the obligation to stay out of P-areas on YOU.
 
flyingron said:
Note however, while controllers are not supposed to route you in P-areas, the rules put the obligation to stay out of P-areas on YOU.
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While this is true to an extent (it's not solely the pilot's obligation, and they'd fry both the controller and the pilot involved), I've never heard of a controller trying to route someone through a P-area.
 
Can't imagine it happening, but if you were /A or /U, on vectors and you ended up in a prohibited area, I wonder how that would fall on the pilot's shoulders. Even /G it would be a stretch.

It's an academic issue to be sure, though, it's hard to imagine a practical instance where this would happen.
 
3 or 4 months after 9/11 I departed IAD to the south in a CRJ. Potomac vectored me directly over the White House at 2 or 3 thousand in a clear blue sky day. On the final 5 degree correction to get me right over it I qurryd him. "Yup" was the response and over the WH we flew.

So yeah, it's possible to get vectored into P and R airspace.
 
coma24 said:
Can't imagine it happening, but if you were /A or /U, on vectors and you ended up in a prohibited area, I wonder how that would fall on the pilot's shoulders. Even /G it would be a stretch.
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Not really. The PIC is the final authority responsible for the operation of the aircraft, and that includes knowing where it is at all times, whether s/he has a Cirrus Perspective system or just a mag compass, sectional, and eyeballs with which to navigate. I remember when a controller vectored a C-141 with two pilots and a navigator into a mountain in Washington State, and the accident board didn't cut the crew one inch of slack. I don't see the FAA doing otherwise.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not really. The PIC is the final authority responsible for the operation of the aircraft, and that includes knowing where it is at all times, whether s/he has a Cirrus Perspective system or just a mag compass, sectional, and eyeballs with which to navigate. I remember when a controller vectored a C-141 with two pilots and a navigator into a mountain in Washington State, and the accident board didn't cut the crew one inch of slack. I don't see the FAA doing otherwise.
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Cumulo Granite didnt cut them slack either. Comparatively the FAA is a bunch of softies.
 
Hello everyone. New guy here.. I see a controller posted on here. My question is do you like or dislike VFR pilots using flight following? Does this create a unnessary workload or a helpful workload?
 
I personally prefer pilots using flight following. The guys who go out of their way to not talk to us seem to always be the ones we have to stop jets descending on the STARS for. I'd much rather know what you're doing so I can plan accordingly and minimize impact to both aircraft.

Don't worry about our workload. If I'm too busy I won't accept a flight following request/ terminate radar services on you.
 
I use flight following when flying busy airspace as it helps me a great deal.
 
Approach_controller said:
I personally prefer pilots using flight following. The guys who go out of their way to not talk to us seem to always be the ones we have to stop jets descending on the STARS for. I'd much rather know what you're doing so I can plan accordingly and minimize impact to both aircraft.
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Kinda figured that but good to hear it first hand. Almost always ask for VFR advisories if I'm not IFR.


Don't worry about our workload. If I'm too busy I won't accept a flight following request/ terminate radar services on you.
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Never been turned down myself although the mechanics seem to differ at times between controllers at the same tower.
 
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