Clearance trouble at St. Simons Island

Martin Pauly

Martin Pauly

Line Up and Wait
PoA Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
885
Location
Cedar Rapids, IA
Display Name
Display name:
Martin Pauly
I started a thread over on BeechTalk trying to get insight into what the best way is to pick up an IFR clearance on the ground at KSSI (St. Simons Island). JAX Center doesn't like people to call the published phone number, but their antenna is in Brunswick, not KSSI, so radio reception is hit or miss. It was a frustrating experience.

 
IIRC, they said you have to get away from the hangars. I just took off in VFR and picked it up in the air and this is my SOP for non towered airport.
 
That seems more like a center controller that didn't want to be bothered.
 
I watched this earlier today as I follow your channel. I thought you handled it pretty good ... but what happened "off-air"? lol....
 
martin, I commented on your youtube video, but I had this exact same (almost to the letter) situation as you did as I was holding short of runway 22 at SSI. Called Jax center on cell, they said you have to be number 1, I was. Told me to try again. Tried both for 5 min with no response. Then called them back, they said they will try and was on hold for 5 min. Got my clearance and departed. But yes, citation XLS jet behind me could get them without an issue. This was for both of my radios (which are mounted on top of my high wing). When I saw your video, it was literally deja vu.
 
I commented on this in the video. The clearance issues aside, at the end, Martin refers to the FAA's preferred midfield crosswind entry as a "cloverleaf." I said I liked that so much better than the "teardrop" I often hear it referred to as.

[soapbox]
I've thought the FAA's "preferred" midfield crosswind entry problematic for a long time. Pilots performing it often do a descending turn into the downwind while no more than a mile or two away. Couple that with pilots flying wide patterns and...

I think "teardrop" describes the wrong way perfectly, while "cloverleaf" better suggests getting well clear of the pattern before descending and returning on the 45.
[/soapbox]
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
IIRC, they said you have to get away from the hangars. I just took off in VFR and picked it up in the air and this is my SOP for non towered airport.
Click to expand...
Even when it's IMC at or near pattern altitude? I tried that once and flew marginal VFR circuits for at least 5 minutes before release. So my SOP is the opposite of yours unless it's good VFR. I'd rather be waiting in the ground for a needed IFR release than in the air.
 
another enjoyable video Martin!
I wonder if there are other locations on field where there might be marginally better reception...such as a little further North up the taxiway for example... or if sitting "number 1" for 22.

Anybody have an idea where in Brunswick their antenna is?

I'm just spit-ballin' but I recon the jet's antennas are a few feet higher above ground and that alone gives them advantage...even if their transmitters and receivers are better too.
 
TrueCourse said:
131.375
Click to expand...
So I see that frequency on FaceBook and in ForeFlight comments. If that's some kind of repeater that actually works - great, but who runs it? The FAA? Why is not published with the airport information then? And if it's somebody else, how do I know it's legit?

- Martin
 
midlifeflyer said:
I commented on this in the video. The clearance issues aside, at the end, Martin refers to the FAA's preferred midfield crosswind entry as a "cloverleaf." I said I liked that so much better than the "teardrop" I often hear it referred to as.
Click to expand...
I totally made that name up. I thought of a freeway interchange and the cloverleaf pattern they often have. "Teardrop" is what the FAA calls it.

Like Mark, I like this pattern entry method when arriving from the "wrong" side for the downwind. It gives me more time to observe and try to fit into the pattern, as well as to descend to pattern altitude. The exception would be if the airport is dead at the moment but I know from listening to CTAF that there is other traffic arriving behind me - then I'll err on the side of landing sooner.

- Martin
 
midlifeflyer said:
Even when it's IMC at or near pattern altitude? I tried that once and flew marginal VFR circuits for at least 5 minutes before release. So my SOP is the opposite of yours unless it's good VFR. I'd rather be waiting in the ground for a needed IFR release than in the air.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if ceiling is not above pattern altitude I wouldn’t try it, but in my experience once in the air you get IFR clearance pretty quickly.
 
Martin Pauly said:
"Teardrop" is what the FAA calls it.
Click to expand...
I think if you search, you will find that the FAA does not call it "teardrop" (Foreflight does). The FAA doesn't use any shorthand term for what it refers to as the "Preferred entry from upwind leg side of airport". The only flight maneuvers I'm aware of referred to as "teardrop" by the FAA are the teardrop entry to a hold and a teardrop course reversal. You won't see it in the AIM, AFH, or AC discussions of traffic patterns.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Yeah, if ceiling is not above pattern altitude I wouldn’t try it, but in my experience once in the air you get IFR clearance pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Yes, if it's good VFR and you are out of the way of busy traffic routes. And part of "not busy" is that it's good VFR in the area, so most are departing VFR, whether they stay VFR or pick up IFR. So no problem . Easy and, as you say, typically quick. But when conditions are IFR or even marginal VFR (as in the video), there is typically more IFR traffic, more aircraft needing clearances, busier ATC. Combined with separation requirements, you are going to wait for a release - also known as "wait while we find a spot to fit you in," whether you call in the air or on the ground.
 
Martin Pauly said:
So I see that frequency on FaceBook and in ForeFlight comments. If that's some kind of repeater that actually works - great, but who runs it? The FAA? Why is not published with the airport information then? And if it's somebody else, how do I know it's legit?

- Martin
Click to expand...

All good questions Martin. I didn’t have to use it last time I went to SSI because I departed VFR. But, if others have used it and it gets me in contact with CD, than I’ll use it. I’m willing to bet there is a paper posted somewhere in the FBO (weather briefing area) that has this frequency posted. It should be posted in pilot accessible official sources if it’s operated or maintained by the FAA or SSI, but maybe someone dropped the ball on that. Regardless, too bad the person on the other end of the CD phone number they DO publish was not very interested in helping.
 
Last edited:
Yes it does. Maybe someone based at SSI can shed light on this freq mystery.
 
It’s been mentioned by several pilots (in ForeFlight, comments section on airport listing) that have used it successful.
 
TrueCourse said:
It’s been mentioned by several pilots (in ForeFlight, comments section on airport listing) that have used it successful.
Click to expand...
I think the answer is often local knowledge. That may come down to asking, what's the best way to pick up my clearance from the ground?" at the FBO.

When I moved from my Class D base to my current nontowered home, the AFD said to use one of those RCOs that connected to a phone line. This was years before direct phone numbers were published. It never worked. The flying club had a big sign in the planning room with the TRACON number to use.
 
My curiosity has been spiked.

Skyvector's AFD lists it this way
APCH/DEP SVC PRVDD BY JACKSONVILLE ARTCC (ZJX) ON FREQS 126.75/277.4 (BRUNSWICK RCAG)
it doesn't even list this backup freq tat your on phone controller mentions

I did a little digging, not a lot, but tried to find the actual location for this RCAG. Can't find it. maybe located on the airport at Brunswick (BQK) but that's a guess really.

I also didn't find a reference to this 131.375 freq.

I wonder....
would the FSS RCO through the Brunswick VORTAC have been any help in this situation? 122.2 It's located without much civilization between the Southern end of SSI and the VOR...and a little closer than Brunswick airport ....7.14sm vs about 8.6sm to Brunswick airport.....(assuming that's where 126.75 is located)
 
Not sure who that guy was on the CD phone, but he sure did not seem to interested to be at work that day. Now that you are home, I’d give Jax Center a call on the phone and try to reach a center supervisor to find out the exact details of what they want you to do. I would of done exactly what you did. Again I do t think that guy wanted to be at work that day.
 
Rcmutz said:
Not sure who that guy was on the CD phone, but he sure did not seem to interested to be at work that day. Now that you are home, I’d give Jax Center a call on the phone and try to reach a center supervisor to find out the exact details of what they want you to do. I would have done exactly what you did. Again I do t think that guy wanted to be at work that day.
Click to expand...
I didn’t get that feeling about the guy on the phone. He can’t just whip out a Clearance and release and then tell the Controller at the Sector what he just did. He has to communicate with the Controller first. Maybe not directly, could be with a Supervisor in the Area who walks over to the Controllers position to check with the Controller personally. I felt the Flight Data guy on the phone did put in the effort to get the Clearance.
 
@PastZTL , what’s your take on this. Did you have airports with similar problems? What’s the layout in the building? Where is the Flight Data position located? Does it have direct landline to the Sectors? Can the Sectors access commercial phone lines?
 
I think the first time Martin told him he couldn’t reach the controller, the dude should of said I’ll call on the land line and get a clearance for you. Instead, he wanted Martin to try again, and then when he called him back the second time, he said he would try and get the clearance, BUT, YOU KEEP TRYING on the radio. That attitude conveyed to me he would rather not be working. If it were me, I would of just sat on the phone and not bothered trying via the radio a third time. Center was clearly not able to hear the radio call. Then again, perhaps he was just having a bad day, or doesn’t like being on the Flight Data desk!
 
My thoughts on the guy answering the phone was not that he wasn't trying to help, but that he didn't understand what was going on. My lack of radio communication with Center isn't going to change by simply trying again. When I confirmed that we were number one for departure and unable to raise JAX Center on the radio, in my opinion he should have proceeded at that point to get the clearance and release from within his facility and relay it to me. Everything he did in between was just a waste of everybody's time.

- Martin
 
I think my earlier question might have fallen through the cracks....

I wonder....
would the FSS RCO through the Brunswick VORTAC have been any help in this situation? 122.2 It's located without much civilization between the Southern end of SSI and the VOR...and a little closer than Brunswick airport ....7.14sm vs about 8.6sm to Brunswick airport.....(assuming that's where 126.75 is located)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top