Class Bravo question

[vkhosid]

Perhaps this pertains to those in the bay area, but I figure I'd post the question(s) here for all to see.

I recently got my ticket and would like to take a few friends on some flights around the san francisco bay area. A very common thing is the "bay tour", and I believe that I can relay that when I request flight following. The questions are this, however:

1. What should I tell the controller when I request flight following? My plan is to pick it up on the ground from KLVK. I've usually done this and had a destination airport, but will have no particular destination in this case.

2. If/when I request to enter the SFO Bravo, will they know that I am going to be zigging and zagging (hopefully) sporadically to show the passengers a few of the sights?

3. If any of you have done the bay tour before, what kind of restrictions does NorCal put on you, usually?

4. Generally speaking, what can/should I expect from the controllers?

Thanks, guys!

 

[ahkahn]

Perhaps this pertains to those in the bay area, but I figure I'd post the question(s) here for all to see.

I recently got my ticket and would like to take a few friends on some flights around the san francisco bay area. A very common thing is the "bay tour", and I believe that I can relay that when I request flight following. The questions are this, however:

1. What should I tell the controller when I request flight following? My plan is to pick it up on the ground from KLVK. I've usually done this and had a destination airport, but will have no particular destination in this case.

Request flight following/radar services around the area you wish to fly. Let them know it will be local only and will be for a scenic view of the area.

2. If/when I request to enter the SFO Bravo, will they know that I am going to be zigging and zagging (hopefully) sporadically to show the passengers a few of the sights?

They will know that if you tell them it will be a scenic flight of the bay area. They're probably used to it. If it involves entering the Bravo, I doubt you'll get that, but you can always try. If it's barely in the Bravo, and out of their way at the time, your likelihood is greater... but don't count on it.

3. If any of you have done the bay tour before, what kind of restrictions does NorCal put on you, usually?

4. Generally speaking, what can/should I expect from the controllers?

Thanks, guys!

Can't speak specific to Norcal, but remember that the controllers are there for the pilots, not the other way around. Their job is to keep IFR traffic from running into one another, and, when on flight following, to let you know of others in your vicinity.

 

[rbridges]

If you let them know what you have in mind and they have time to watch you, flight following shouldn't be a problem. The class bravo in the Atlanta area is hard to get into. I don't know how liberal they are with it in the bay area.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sometimes we forget that the controllers are human beings who speak and understand the English language (at least in the USA). Just tell the first controller what you want, clearly and plainly, and repeat as necessary.

 

[MAKG1]

The Bay Tour means somewhat different things at different airports in terms of route. But the commonality is flight following and a Class B transition.

NorCal wants you at either 3500 or 1500, coast side of 101. 1500 will talk to SFO Tower instead of NorCal. If one says no, you can try the other.

You can ask LVK for a Bay Tour, or just be specific. You always have a destination, even if it's where you started from.

None of the regular sights are inside the B surface area, except for SFO itself. Study the TAC. Giants games are MUCH bigger obstacles than Class B as the damn TFR covers most of downtown San Francisco.

The controllers will expect you to do what they say. It's a lot like Class C except you have to get cleared in first. You are likely to hear a constant stream of approach clearances, and you might possibly get a departure leaving below you. I saw an A380 that way once. Expect a lot of handoffs.

From LVK, in the absence of an A's game, I'd make a beeline for Coliseum, follow 880 past the Bay Bridge, then overfly Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge, proceed to Lake Merced and cross Class B to Crystal Springs at 1500, make for SLAC, follow Dumbarton Bridge to Sunol Pass, then return to LVK.

 

[vkhosid]

The Bay Tour means somewhat different things at different airports in terms of route. But the commonality is flight following and a Class B transition.

NorCal wants you at either 3500 or 1500, coast side of 101. 1500 will talk to SFO Tower instead of NorCal. If one says no, you can try the other.

You can ask LVK for a Bay Tour, or just be specific. You always have a destination, even if it's where you started from.

None of the regular sights are inside the B surface area, except for SFO itself. Study the TAC. Giants games are MUCH bigger obstacles than Class B as the damn TFR covers most of downtown San Francisco.

The controllers will expect you to do what they say. It's a lot like Class C except you have to get cleared in first. You are likely to hear a constant stream of approach clearances, and you might possibly get a departure leaving below you. I saw an A380 that way once. Expect a lot of handoffs.

From LVK, in the absence of an A's game, I'd make a beeline for Coliseum, follow 880 past the Bay Bridge, then overfly Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge, proceed to Lake Merced and cross Class B to Crystal Springs at 1500, make for SLAC, follow Dumbarton Bridge to Sunol Pass, then return to LVK.

Very interesting!

 

[asicer]

The Bay Tour means somewhat different things at different airports in terms of route. But the commonality is flight following and a Class B transition.

NorCal wants you at either 3500 or 1500, coast side of 101. 1500 will talk to SFO Tower instead of NorCal. If one says no, you can try the other.

You can ask LVK for a Bay Tour, or just be specific. You always have a destination, even if it's where you started from.

None of the regular sights are inside the B surface area, except for SFO itself. Study the TAC. Giants games are MUCH bigger obstacles than Class B as the damn TFR covers most of downtown San Francisco.

The controllers will expect you to do what they say. It's a lot like Class C except you have to get cleared in first. You are likely to hear a constant stream of approach clearances, and you might possibly get a departure leaving below you. I saw an A380 that way once. Expect a lot of handoffs.

From LVK, in the absence of an A's game, I'd make a beeline for Coliseum, follow 880 past the Bay Bridge, then overfly Alcatraz and the Golden Gate Bridge, proceed to Lake Merced and cross Class B to Crystal Springs at 1500, make for SLAC, follow Dumbarton Bridge to Sunol Pass, then return to LVK.

I think there are some other interesting things to see/photograph if you go a little bit farther south/southeast and then transition over KSJC, that is if you and your pax have the endurance for it.

 

[Palmpilot]

They will know that if you tell them it will be a scenic flight of the bay area. They're probably used to it.

They are DEFINITELY used to it. If he asks for a "bay tour," the approach controllers will have a general idea of what he wants, and I suspect the same may be true of the Livermore tower and ground controllers.

If it involves entering the Bravo, I doubt you'll get that, but you can always try. If it's barely in the Bravo, and out of their way at the time, your likelihood is greater... but don't count on it.

The class B transitions that MAKG described (along the San Francisco Peninsula) are almost always available, but it's always best to have a plan B, in case they aren't. I'm not sure about class B transitions elsewhere around the bay, but it's less likely to be needed in those areas.

 

[ollopa]

Maybe this will help http://blog.mikedalrymple.com/2012/03/08/flying-the-bay-tour/

I always approach from the north and stay clear of the class B. It has always been good enough for my passengers to make a few passes over the bridge, circle Alcatraz, and take pictures of the SF skyline from over the bay. My understanding if you do want to go through the Bravo, though, is that you'll get to hug the ground and stay on the west side of the 101.

 

[MAKG1]

I think there are some other interesting things to see/photograph if you go a little bit farther south/southeast and then transition over KSJC, that is if you and your pax have the endurance for it.

Sure. There is the new Apple HQ, the "cube" atop Mt. Umunhum, and Mt. Hamilton. It's also an easier flight to execute, as you don't have to dodge under Class B over the Bay. But it's also quite a bit longer.

I've gotten B transitions elsewhere, but they are less interesting. It's not happening over the Bay, due to arrivals on 28 and departures on 1. I'd expect trouble over Berkeley, but not elsewhere in the East Bay.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Sometimes we forget that the controllers are human beings who speak and understand the English language (at least in the USA). Just tell the first controller what you want, clearly and plainly, and repeat as necessary.

I'm glad someone said it.

There is no special language for it. Just don't think on the radio.

"Uhh... uuuuhhhhhh....."

 

[vkhosid]

I'm glad someone said it.

There is no special language for it. Just don't think on the radio.

"Uhh... uuuuhhhhhh....."

It's not really a question of HOW to say it, its more of a question geared towards what they're expecting me to ask for, and how it's usually done.

 

[MAKG1]

It's not really a question of HOW to say it, its more of a question geared towards what they're expecting me to ask for, and how it's usually done.

They will insist on a destination.

Remember, landings are mandatory. Tell them where you will land. Even if it's "right here."

I like to be explicit about a B or C transition, but NorCal is much more interested in that than Ground/Tower, and LVK is far enough away from all that that I doubt they will care. Except maybe if you intend to blast into Oakland C (if there is an A's game, don't go there -- OAK doesn't close and the entire TFR is inside Class C so the ATC exception applies, but the traffic is a huge zoo).

 

[AggieMike88]

94V: Before you do it for yourself and friends, consider taking a ride with another pilot who has done it several times and knows the routine. This will provide some exposure of how it rolls and reduce the chance of getting overwhelmed.

And it gives you the chance to be the tourist and sight see. When you're the PIC and flying your friends, always remember your responsibility is flying the aircraft (aviate), making sure you don't run into other aircraft or terrain (navigate), and listening/talking to ATC (communicate). Not getting distracted while ogling the bridge, Alcatraz, or downtown.

 

[vkhosid]

94V: Before you do it for yourself and friends, consider taking a ride with another pilot who has done it several times and knows the routine. This will provide some exposure of how it rolls and reduce the chance of getting overwhelmed.

And it gives you the chance to be the tourist and sight see. When you're the PIC and flying your friends, always remember your responsibility is flying the aircraft (aviate), making sure you don't run into other aircraft or terrain (navigate), and listening/talking to ATC (communicate). Not getting distracted while ogling the bridge, Alcatraz, or downtown.

I like that idea, a lot!!

That begs the quesiton....who wants to take me flying?!?!

 

[noahfong]

The phrase "Bay Tour" is so generic that it almost means nothing because everyone has a different idea. So, the important thing is, what do you want to do?

Most pilots I know take their passengers out to overfly the Golden Gate Bridge, Alcatraz, etc. If this is what you have in mind, then there is no reason for you to transition through Bravo when you are departing from Livermore (LVK). Look at the SFO TAC. All these sights are within the Golden Gate Bridge, the Bay Bridge, and the East Bay shoreline boundaries. Unless you plan to fly at 3,000 and above, you are below Bravo. There is a section of Oakland Charlie to contend with, though, as you most likely will be above 1,500 (although I know some pilots who will fly below that).

If this is what you have in mind, then I recommend:

1. Request from LVK (ground) flight following for a "bay tour". There may be a few questions if they want to know what that means.
2. Expect a code and a handoff to Norcal after departure.
3. Either follow 580 into Oakland and go northwest (you can expect to be handed off to OAK and then back to Norcal) or go northwest through the San Ramon Valley and over the Caldecott (you can expect one handoff enroute).
4. Hangout in the area north of the bay bridge (they may give you that restriction). You will be free to fly around however you want. If you are over "the city", make sure you know where the Bravo boundaries are.
5. A nice sightseeing altitude is 2,000. (But transition over the hills at least 2,500)
6. Return to LVK in similar fashion. Let Norcal know when you are ready to return and how you plan to get back (through Oakland; over the Caldecott, etc).

I know pilots who don't want to deal with the radio work, so they go over the Caldecott, either avoid the Charlie, laterally, or drop down below 1,500. They don't talk to anyone while out there or enroute. You may encounter them because Norcal will point them out to you but will be unable to talk to them.

The only time you really need a Bravo transition is if you want to fly along the San Francisco peninsula. For this, you will need to contact Norcal and request a Bravo transition SB or NB along the San Francisco peninsula. Expect to be restricted to remain west of 101 (the bayshore) and at or below 2,000. (or above 3,500). (Expect to talk to SFO tower if you are transitioning low). Or, be denied the transition (this depends on which runway departures are using more than anything else).

 

[MAKG1]

If he's dodged the B before (as almost every local pilot has) with flight following, he knows almost all the drill. It's easier to transition the B than to dodge it. The hard part is dealing with the complex airspace, which is much worse outside the B than inside it.

Local instructors make it sound real scary but almost all first-time transitioners react with "Is that all there is to it?" when done.

A sightseeing flight over San Francisco is almost every new pilot's first rite of passage after the check ride. From Livermore, a B transition isn't really necessary to do that, like it is from Peninsula or South Bay airports. But it can be done that way.

 

[MAKG1]

I like that idea, a lot!!

That begs the quesiton....who wants to take me flying?!?!

I can't do it this weekend, but pick me up at Reid or Palo Alto and I'll sit right seat while you do it.

Or just do it. There really isn't that much. Know where the boundary is, and what to do if the response is "remain clear of class B"

 

[vkhosid]

I can't do it this weekend, but pick me up at Reid or Palo Alto and I'll sit right seat while you do it.

Or just do it. There really isn't that much. Know where the boundary is, and what to do if the response is "remain clear of class B"

I think I'll take you up on it. This weekend and next aren't good for me either, but perhaps a random friday afternoon or other weekend at some point?

 

[midlifeflyer]

They will insist on a destination.

They will? Is that something special for the SF Bay Tour? Or in that local ATC area? I ask because I've received flight following service for tours more than once without indicating a point of landing.

 

[sourdough44]

Just skimmed through. I don't know specifics out there operating VFR around the 'bravo'. I'd kinda lean towards skirting the edge so I could talk to the passengers more and not be concerned much with ATC. It would be a busy frequency and they wouldn't like it if you missed a call. I am not familiar with how the local sights line up with the class bravo veil, which could be a factor.

I also wouldn't want to be hanging out 1000' below a 777 inbound to SFO.

 

[MAKG1]

They will? Is that something special for the SF Bay Tour? Or in that local ATC area? I ask because I've received flight following service for tours more than once without indicating a point of landing.

I don't know if it's specific to here, but every time I ask for flight following -- even for something like "maneuvers" or "sightseeing" they ALWAYS want a destination. I do that frequently, almost every time, even practicing Pattern B, as there is a fair amount of jet traffic between the mountain ranges.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Just skimmed through. I don't know specifics out there operating VFR around the 'bravo'. I'd kinda lean towards skirting the edge so I could talk to the passengers more and not be concerned much with ATC. It would be a busy frequency and they wouldn't like it if you missed a call. I am not familiar with how the local sights line up with the class bravo veil, which could be a factor.

I also wouldn't want to be hanging out 1000' below a 777 inbound to SFO.

Honestly, you can see 90% of what you want to see outside of the inner ring, under the 2,100 foot shelf on the coastal side. Or even under the 3,000 foot shelf, for that matter. I normally do that for the routes I typically take. Coming from the OP's direction though, it's somewhat impractical.

 

[noahfong]

If he's dodged the B before (as almost every local pilot has) with flight following, he knows almost all the drill. It's easier to transition the B than to dodge it. The hard part is dealing with the complex airspace, which is much worse outside the B than inside it.

Local instructors make it sound real scary but almost all first-time transitioners react with "Is that all there is to it?" when done.

A sightseeing flight over San Francisco is almost every new pilot's first rite of passage after the check ride. From Livermore, a B transition isn't really necessary to do that, like it is from Peninsula or South Bay airports. But it can be done that way.

Are you saying he should do the tour in such a way that he needs to go through Bravo? Doesn't make any sense if originating from LVK. Not dodging anything. Assuming he has in mind what I mentioned, he would have to go out of his way to get into Bravo.

Now, if he wants to "ring" the bay, that's a different story.

 

[MAKG1]

I think I'll take you up on it. This weekend and next aren't good for me either, but perhaps a random friday afternoon or other weekend at some point?

I can be rather easily talked into flying on a random friday afternoon….and Bay Tours don't get old.

Or a free weekend. That's hit or miss. Instrument lessons are Saturday mornings at Reid, so afterward may be possible. But not this weekend.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't know if it's specific to here, but every time I ask for flight following -- even for something like "maneuvers" or "sightseeing" they ALWAYS want a destination. I do that frequently, almost every time, even practicing Pattern B, as there is a fair amount of jet traffic between the mountain ranges.

Might be a local thing. Maybe even multiple local things.One thing we learn fairly quickly as we travel is that different ATC areas (and sometimes even controllers) want different things to help them out with their jobs.

 

[MAKG1]

Are you saying he should do the tour in such a way that he needs to go through Bravo? Doesn't make any sense if originating from LVK. Not dodging anything. Assuming he has in mind what I mentioned, he would have to go out of his way to get into Bravo.

Now, if he wants to "ring" the bay, that's a different story.

Not that he "should," but it's a possibility. It's what the original question was.

The North Bay is pretty quiet, and going that way is the simplest way from LVK.

 

[MAKG1]

Might be a local thing. Maybe even multiple local things.One thing we learn fairly quickly as we travel is that different ATC areas (and sometimes even controllers) want different things to help them out with their jobs.

Sure. I'd be prepared to believe that's a NorCal thing. Every other ATC facility I've flown in (including Oakland Center) has been in the context of a cross country, and has had an obvious destination.

 

[MAKG1]

Just skimmed through. I don't know specifics out there operating VFR around the 'bravo'. I'd kinda lean towards skirting the edge so I could talk to the passengers more and not be concerned much with ATC. It would be a busy frequency and they wouldn't like it if you missed a call. I am not familiar with how the local sights line up with the class bravo veil, which could be a factor.

I also wouldn't want to be hanging out 1000' below a 777 inbound to SFO.

All good generalities, but there are some specifics to the SFO B that merit different considerations.

One is the proximity of the coastline. Skirting the B to the west means flying over the ocean at 1400 feet (or 2000 feet further out). There are few beaches and a lot of rocks -- you would have to react quickly and land on a cliff top in an emergency. There is one spot south of Pacifica with no survivable emergency landing sites. Skirting to the east means a very busy Class C transition, at unusually low altitudes.

1000 feet below a 777 is really hard to do. The ILS is over the Bay, and few other Class B transitions are given over there. You might possibly see one on departure over the Golden Gate, but there is plenty of altitude (that happens with a departure on 1 and a westbound transition) and they are configured clean by then.

I've seen a few airliners close BELOW while transitioning at 3500. That's quite a sight. The last one was an A-380. I don't think my wake was a problem for him...

 

[Timmer]

I've seen a few airliners close BELOW while transitioning at 3500. That's quite a sight. The last one was an A-380. I don't think my wake was a problem for him...

No, Cessna 1000' above, caution wake turbulence for the A380 pilot?

 

[Palmpilot]

I saw a P-51 pass 500 feet below me recently. That was cool.