Class Bravo Incursion

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Yesterday when I landed at KCHD the controller told me "possible pilot deviation call phx approach." and gave me a number. When I called phoenix approach they said they have not reviewed the tapes yet but asked for my info. Pilot cert. phone number and address. Then I was told the FSDO will contact you in matter of two weeks! I don't know why I was given a phone number but I guess because i was doing aerobatics and I set my altimeter to zero I might have messed up the altitudes and busted through Phoenix bravo airspace. I was on air to air frequency at the time and I was not listening to the approach. I did not do anything intentional and I'm frustrated and afraid. I'm thinking about filling up a NASA report. Anyone has any experience or any knowledge about what could happen next?
 
You're under Phonex Bravo airspace, in which case you're threading a needle between the SATR and Bravo.

Doing aerobatics

With you altimeter set to zero

Not on frequency




Dude, how did you not see this coming, yeah file a NASA, but boy, as far as Bravo busts go, that's a good one.
 
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If you have an aviation legal services plan this might be a good time to reach out to them. You'll want to file a ASRS report ASAP, and work on writing up a statement for the FSDO inspector to respond to their inquiry. You'll want to make sure it's factual, timely, and demonstrates a positive attitude: your actions were unintentional, and that you've put together a plane to ensure it won't happen again...new procedures, additional training, etc. There's a good chance it may result in nothing more than a warning if you display the right attitude.
 
Uh, you were doing aerobatics and busted the Bravo? That means you were doing it within the lateral boundaries of Bravo airspace, no?
 
I've been doing acro couple of miles west of San Tan mountains for a long time... I set my altimeter to zero because I don't want to end up to low to the ground... the B starts at 7000' MSL to 9000' MSL and I remember I was at 5500' AGL. Considering the elevation is about 1500 MSL over there. technically I was just in the Bravo airspace for maybe 20 to 30 seconds.. I don't remember being close to any other planes or anything like that... I will send the report and hope for the best... since I don't know what's my violation yet I can't really write up a scenario than saying I'm **** sorry and be honest and compliance with them. Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it.
 
I've been doing acro couple of miles west of San Tan mountains for a long time... I set my altimeter to zero because I don't want to end up to low to the ground... the B starts at 7000' MSL to 9000' MSL and I remember I was at 5500' AGL. Considering the elevation is about 1500 MSL over there. technically I was just in the Bravo airspace for maybe 20 to 30 seconds.. I don't remember being close to any other planes or anything like that... I will send the report and hope for the best... since I don't know what's my violation yet I can't really write up a scenario than saying I'm **** sorry and be honest and compliance with them. Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it.

Regardless of what action the FSDO takes, submit your ASRS report (NASA report) now. Don't do anything with the FSDO until they contact you.
 
I've been doing acro couple of miles west of San Tan mountains for a long time... I set my altimeter to zero because I don't want to end up to low to the ground... the B starts at 7000' MSL to 9000' MSL and I remember I was at 5500' AGL. Considering the elevation is about 1500 MSL over there. technically I was just in the Bravo airspace for maybe 20 to 30 seconds.. I don't remember being close to any other planes or anything like that... I will send the report and hope for the best... since I don't know what's my violation yet I can't really write up a scenario than saying I'm **** sorry and be honest and compliance with them. Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it.

Yeah, but you aren't supposed to be doing aerobatics within the lateral boundaries of Bravo, Charlie, Delta or Echo airspace...
 
Yeah, but you aren't supposed to be doing aerobatics within the lateral boundaries of Bravo, Charlie, Delta or Echo airspace...

Not so sure about that. Seems to be a few aerobatic boxes in the Phoenix area, including one just west of the San Tan mountains...

http://www.aftw.org/practice_areas.html

Don't know how old the chart is on the webpage, but it appears that one is under a 6k shelf. Not a 7k shelf as indicated by the OP.
 
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Not so sure about that. Seems to be a few aerobatic boxes in the Phoenix area...

http://www.aftw.org/practice_areas.html

I'm guessing those are aerobatic boxes approved by the FAA? This is what the FAR says...

Sec. 91.303

Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight--
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
 
Yup, just found this...

The FAA has once again renewed the ATCA aerobatic training area on the west side of the Estrella Mountains. The area is used primarily by the German Air Force for Initial Flight Training, High Performance Maneuvers, Spins, Upset Training, and Formation flying.
 
Yup, just found this...

I edited my post a bit more. Seems the OP might be mistaken about the bottom of the shelf in his area.

Could be that the chart on the webpage is a bit old and things may have changed. I don't fly in the Phoenix area. :dunno:
 
When you file the NASA report, make sure the title does not revel anything you may have done. That means do not title it "Busted Class B Airspace", rather use something like "Possible Airspace Confusion"
 
Of course a NASA report is a no brainier. You shouldn't even need to ask.

It may be legal, but is it smart to do aerobatics so close to the B ? Everyone is different, but I wouldn't do it.
 
I've been doing acro couple of miles west of San Tan mountains for a long time... I set my altimeter to zero because I don't want to end up to low to the ground... the B starts at 7000' MSL to 9000' MSL and I remember I was at 5500' AGL. Considering the elevation is about 1500 MSL over there. technically I was just in the Bravo airspace for maybe 20 to 30 seconds.. I don't remember being close to any other planes or anything like that... I will send the report and hope for the best... since I don't know what's my violation yet I can't really write up a scenario than saying I'm **** sorry and be honest and compliance with them. Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it.

You seem to know your violation was a Class B bust....

Pilot deviations from Approach could be other things, like aerobatics below 1500 AGL or cutting off IFR traffic in the clouds.

You know enough. Come clean, show an effort to prevent future errors.
 
I'm guessing those are aerobatic boxes approved by the FAA? This is what the FAR says...

Sec. 91.303

Aerobatic flight.

No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight--
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
Makes a big difference.
 
Yeah, but you aren't supposed to be doing aerobatics within the lateral boundaries of Bravo, Charlie, Delta or Echo airspace...

Surface area, may not be wise under a shelf if it's high enough, but legal.
I know a few acro boxes located under Class B shelves.
 
Yeah, but you aren't supposed to be doing aerobatics within the lateral boundaries of Bravo, Charlie, Delta or Echo airspace...

He wasn't. He was under a class B shelf. It says "within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport"
 
Don't know about other areas, or the current situation, but St. Augustine (SGJ) in Florida used to have an aerobatic box right next to the main runway. It existed long before the airport got a control tower and became Class D.
 
Aerobatic boxes exist because they are places where the necessary regulations are explicitly waived by the FAA. If you don't need a waiver at a location, you don't need a box. So, if a box is inside the surface area of B,C, D or E designated... that is just one more regulation to be waived (in addition to the typical wavier of the 1500 foot requirement).

Impromptu, aerobatic on your own are subject to the regulations cited. The hard one can be "(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;" if you are anywhere near a large metropolitan area.

It's possible that the O.P. was in fact, 4 NM or more from V-16 (a couple miles west of the Santan Mountains) under the 7000 foot shelf which would be legit - but a bit tight.
 
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Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
Or as we call it, the airspace formerly known as a control zone. I don't know why the FAA got rid of that term.
 
There's not much to do until you get a "Letter of Investigation" from the FAA except file the NASA report. If you do (although with a pilot deviation notice, the likelihood is that it will get at least that far).

What to do isn't a simple answer. Your best bet is a consultation with a knowledgeable professional. The system is far more nuanced that either "spill your guts and confess" or "keep your mouth shut and stonewall".
 
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