Class B Ops... You Can Do It

Ventucky Red

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Jon
...........You have more people who still are somewhat recalcitrant to operate even near Class B and C airspace.......
I have read here a few times on some different threads of the trepidation some have for operating in the feared Class Bravo or it's evil little sister Class Charlie airspace....

Can I ask what the fear is an how we as a group can help others in establishing a comfort level in dealing with ATC and getting them to work for you in getting cleared through?

I know for some, Class B ops are the norm of your everyday flying.. for those could you share your technique and foster some advice?

Thanks

John
 
The biggest fear is " Remain clear of Class Bravo Airspace". Certainly doesn't bother me, but some feel like they been yelled at. They are busy!
 
Speak concisely, typically class B is busy. You can avoid a lot of stress by avoiding 'push times' when flying through. Be ready to follow instructions. If you don't understand what you were told tell them, 'unfamiliar'. Be familiar with the Class B charts and the given routes and be set up to use them and the navigational aids they give. Do not be afraid to ask for vectors. Make sure you hear,"12BC cleared into...", do not be afraid to ask for it.
 
The biggest fear is " Remain clear of Class Bravo Airspace". Certainly doesn't bother me, but some feel like they been yelled at. They are busy!

Me neither, "Yes sir and I am here and will remain below" and that's the last I say. Usually someone picks me up out the other side otherwise I'll call departure, no big deal.
 
If you sound like you know what going on that will help getting a Class B clearance. Assuming you are not on FF then it would go something like this:

Approach, Cessna 9876X, 15 N. of Denton 4,500 destination Arlington request Bravo transition.

If they come back and say squawk 1234 say aircraft type (Then it looks good).

Respond: 1234 Cessna 172 slash G (or whatever)

Cessna 9876X cleared into Class B maintain 5,500 direct Arlington (or whatever).

The cleared into the class Bravo is what you MUST hear. If they don't say it, respond, confirm Cessna 9876x is cleared into Class Bravo.

They are used to IFR traffic so sometimes they forget. The above is the number one most important thing, just like being cleared to land, make sure they say the words.



They might say, "unable remain clear of the Bravo"

So then you fly around.

The trick is to do all this well in advance so you don't run right up against the airspace. If you are on FF, when you get on with approach they will usually tell you what to expect. If not you can always say, Approach Cessna 9876X can I expect a Bravo transition?

Sometimes on FF if I am at an altitude where I am going to enter a Bravo shelf and they haven't cleared me, I just prompt them, "Approach Cessna 9876X are we cleared into the Bravo or should we descend?" Many times they forget as I mentioned above. They'll either clear you or tell you to descend.

Recap: Bravo clearances are given by approach not center. Don't waste centers time. You must hear Cessna 9876X is cleared into class Bravo from approach (have I driven that home enough?)

It's really no big deal I do it every time I fly.
 
I think the first step is to get clear on the rules for those types of airspace. We have had numerous discussions on class B and C operations, but the rather primitive search feature makes them difficult to find. However, there are always people willing to chime in when questions are asked, and eventually the wheat gets separated from the chaff.

Other than that, a good place to start would be a careful review of regulations 14 CFR 91.130 and 91.131, paying particular attention to the differences between them. Next, a review of AIM 3-2-3 and 3-2-4 would help with understanding the implications of those regs.

In line with what Geico posted, it's important to have an alternate plan in mind that involves avoiding the airspace, especially with class B.

A Google search on "operating in class B airspace" turns up quite a few links, including this Avweb article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/183284-1.html

A similar search for class C also turns up many links, including this AOPA article, which covers various classes of airspace:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa02.pdf
 
Class B--nothing to it. Know where you are, what to say, and what they're saying.

Got my PPL and IR in Class B.

Best recommendation? Get your IR, and always file if you will be near or in B or C, or other "special" airspaces.
 
Quick tip, check your gyro against your compass before calling in.
 
I have read here a few times on some different threads of the trepidation some have for operating in the feared Class Bravo or it's evil little sister Class Charlie airspace....

Can I ask what the fear is an how we as a group can help others in establishing a comfort level in dealing with ATC and getting them to work for you in getting cleared through?

I know for some, Class B ops are the norm of your everyday flying.. for those could you share your technique and foster some advice?
Pilot attitudes vary but I think most pilots are a bit intimidated by ATC communications at some point and many VFR-only pilots never quite get past it. It's all about understanding how the system works and the most straight forward way of gaining that knowledge is the instrument rating. I believe that the combination of training followed by a few actual IFR flights will fix the whole problem for any pilot. All of the training and flying can be done in CAVU conditions, it has nothing to do with bad weather.

That's a giant commitment to solve a small problem, but there is a boat load of benefits that come along with it. The US may be the only place you can get full support of the ATC system for taxes you have already paid, aka, for free. If one is unwilling to deal with or fly into Class B/C airports, you miss a lot of the transportation value inherent in your certificate.

On a completely unrelated note, I've always found it ironic that the busier Class B/C airports are often the easiest and most helpful while the less busy ones are less so.
 
Apparently, not all Class B's are the same.

I flew with an LA pilot last week through KSFO Class B and then KOAK Class C (directly over the field at 1500). All the relevant controllers were helpful, and NorCal even tolerated some indecision on my part when I decided to change to a lower altitude (with approval and a handoff to KSFO Tower), as air was much smoother than I expected. I pushed my luck on that one.

The Class C transition was at night, and NorCal sent me over the Colisseum. One bright white light looks like another, so I needed a vector, which they provided.

My passenger expressed surprise about just how helpful and tolerant the local controllers were. Apparently KLAX Class B doesn't like to do these things (though I haven't tried it myself yet).
 
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An excellent way to learn/remember the "script" is to listen to ATC in B & C areas. Call up liveatc.net and listen. Even more fun is to have two windows open and have flightware.com up on the other one. You can watch the path of the specific flight while listening to the dialog between the aircraft and ATC.

I'm fortunate that I live close to Class B and can listen to both Denver and KAPA tower on the handheld. The repetition of the dialog really helped me learn the process.
 
Apparently, not all Class B's are the same.

I flew with an LA pilot last week through KSFO Class B and then KOAK Class C (directly over the field at 1500). All the relevant controllers were helpful, and NorCal even tolerated some indecision on my part when I decided to change to a lower altitude (with approval and a handoff to KSFO Tower), as air was much smoother than I expected. I pushed my luck on that one.

The Class C transition was at night, and NorCal sent me over the Colisseum. One bright white light looks like another, so I needed a vector, which they provided.

My passenger expressed surprise about just how helpful and tolerant the local controllers were. Apparently KLAX Class B doesn't like to do these things (though I haven't tried it myself yet).

I learned and flew my first few years out of LGB and frequently transitioned the LA TCA / Class B airspace even as a student pilot. I never had a hassle with them. Even had a couple of emergencies with them. So Cal and LAX were always helpful and professional to me.
 
Plan "A" and plan "B"

Plan "A" expect the clearance and be ready to fly altitude and headings as given.

Plan "B" know your plan to go around it.
 
Apparently, not all Class B's are the same.

I flew with an LA pilot last week through KSFO Class B and then KOAK Class C (directly over the field at 1500). All the relevant controllers were helpful, and NorCal even tolerated some indecision on my part when I decided to change to a lower altitude (with approval and a handoff to KSFO Tower), as air was much smoother than I expected. I pushed my luck on that one.

The Class C transition was at night, and NorCal sent me over the Colisseum. One bright white light looks like another, so I needed a vector, which they provided.

My passenger expressed surprise about just how helpful and tolerant the local controllers were. Apparently KLAX Class B doesn't like to do these things (though I haven't tried it myself yet).

I'm an east coast pilot and have never done LA or SFC. I would be surprised to get any other than proficient, busy, and helpful controllers. Many here dread NY ATC but I think they are the best... Except perhaps for JAX on a typical Tx filled afternoon. My 'bad' experiences are mainly at less busy places. The best ATC operations cover the busiest airspace.
 
Be familiar with the area, airspace, VFR routes and landmarks. Have a FLY chart if applicable, or a Helicopter route chart. Familiarity with common routing will go a long way. In busy airspace, the less work you are for a controller, the more you're likely to get the clearance you want. In NYC, knowing the heli routes will open up a lot of options in a fixed-wing as they're all available as ways through the Bravo (provided that fixed-wing 91.119 altitudes are applied, and not the (d) helicopter exception).

As mentioned above, LiveATC is a great way to learn what VFR in Class B sounds like. If you know what to expect before you hear it from ATC, it's much less daunting.

I hear horror stories about VFR traffic trying to transition Class B's in Chicago and Phoenix, but in NYC it's a piece of cake. Professional helpful controllers. The only times I've heard "Remain clear of Bravo" here were when there were operational reasons for it...one time it was because Newark's radar was down, so additional VFR traffic would have been an undue load. Barring that, VFR traffic flies through this Bravo every day, all day. Know what you want, know what ATC's likely to respond with, and have another way around/under if Class B can't be done.
 
Quick tip, check your gyro against your compass before calling in.

Great advice; I'll add to check the ATIS/AWOS, set your altimeter & let them know you have the information either when calling up clearance delivery or preparing to enter Class B or C.

Pretty funny hearing ATC ask someone if there's a problem with their compass or altimeter...ask me how I know. :dunno:
 
I got my PPL in San Diego and my IR in the San Francisco Bay Area so I've always been forced to deal with Class B and C airspace. One thing that definitely helps, though, is to get your instrument rating. Talking to approach and center is a vital part of IFR ops and greatly builds your confidence over time.
 
Class B--nothing to it. Know where you are, what to say, and what they're saying.

Got my PPL and IR in Class B.

Best recommendation? Get your IR, and always file if you will be near or in B or C, or other "special" airspaces.

No. That's recipe for a huge reroute. What's that intersection west of ORD again?
 
No. That's recipe for a huge reroute. What's that intersection west of ORD again?

Yep, I find low and VFR they'll typically bring me over the numbers or midfield then direct out at 2000' or below. If I can call 'visual contact' the controller has more options with me.
 
Yep, I find low and VFR they'll typically bring me over the numbers or midfield then direct out at 2000' or below. If I can call 'visual contact' the controller has more options with me.

I've never been denied a VFR Bravo clearance. Even Hartsfield during a push I got it. IFR I would have been flown waaaaaaaaaay out.
 
I was based at Dulles for several years so that sort of got me over my class B trepidation.
 
Be familiar with the area, airspace, VFR routes and landmarks. Have a FLY chart if applicable, or a Helicopter route chart. Familiarity with common routing will go a long way. In busy airspace, the less work you are for a controller, the more you're likely to get the clearance you want. In NYC, knowing the heli routes will open up a lot of options in a fixed-wing as they're all available as ways through the Bravo (provided that fixed-wing 91.119 altitudes are applied, and not the (d) helicopter exception).

As mentioned above, LiveATC is a great way to learn what VFR in Class B sounds like. If you know what to expect before you hear it from ATC, it's much less daunting.

I hear horror stories about VFR traffic trying to transition Class B's in Chicago and Phoenix, but in NYC it's a piece of cake. Professional helpful controllers. The only times I've heard "Remain clear of Bravo" here were when there were operational reasons for it...one time it was because Newark's radar was down, so additional VFR traffic would have been an undue load. Barring that, VFR traffic flies through this Bravo every day, all day. Know what you want, know what ATC's likely to respond with, and have another way around/under if Class B can't be done.

I concur. Many times I've been prepared to avoid the Bravo (going under or around) while on flight following and to my surprise, the controller asked me if I wanted a Bravo clearance!

It's really no big deal as long as you know what you want and are prepared. As others have said,
have a plan-B.
 
Great advice; I'll add to check the ATIS/AWOS, set your altimeter & let them know you have the information either when calling up clearance delivery or preparing to enter Class B or C.

Pretty funny hearing ATC ask someone if there's a problem with their compass or altimeter...ask me how I know. :dunno:

You'll get the altimeter setting on initial contact and at every handoff. It's not enough to have ATIS. You must have the same ATIS the controller does.

You will only contact CD when leaving a parking space at a Class B or C airport. Most of us have to arrive first.
 
I've never been denied a VFR Bravo clearance. Even Hartsfield during a push I got it. IFR I would have been flown waaaaaaaaaay out.

If it's windy and busy, KSFO isn't likely to accept transitions. If it's not windy, there is no one west of the airport and you'll have only weak restrictions like remaining west of 101 (that's half the airspace).
 
Can I ask what the fear is an how we as a group can help others in establishing a comfort level in dealing with ATC and getting them to work for you in getting cleared through?



John

My fear has been being too slow to respond in busy airspace and therefore making mistakes and being called on the carpet.

Having been used to the openness of rural areas and slowed down my pace since driving LA freeways in my younger years, I have little desire to drive congested traffic again. So, I avoid it. Perhaps the same applies with congested airspace.
 
I find it substantially easier to transition Class B airspace than to avoid it. Think LA streets with no traffic signals.
 
My fear has been being too slow to respond in busy airspace and therefore making mistakes and being called on the carpet.
I think that's typical.

Going back to the OP, I'm not sure what can really help other than exposure and practice. It's really what you are used to. Just as there are pilots with your concerns, there are pilots used to busier airspace who have the same trepidation when going into non-towered airports where there is no "extra set of eyes" to assist with sequencing.

It's not limited to Class B and C. There are Class D airports that are much, much busier than most Class Cs. One example from my recent move - in 2012, KAPA (Class D in Denver) had 100,000 more operations than KRDU (Class C in the Raleigh-Durham area). There are pilots in the Denver area that avoid KAPA because communications can be so fast-paced.

I have always considered myself somewhat lucky to have, at various points, been based out of both very busy towered and quiet non-towered fields.
 
I did my first solo XC to a class C, full stop. Did my second up north and I transistioned the B. it's such a non event. If I could do it as a student, flying an airplane I didn't like, with an airmet Tango then anyone can. I'd almost rather transition phx than land at an uncontrolled... Most likely because I don't spend much time at all at uncontrolled fields.

There is a monthly fly in at Cutter at phx. A bunch of my private pilot friends have flown in there and they said its been great, fun and not overly difficult, though still challenging. I haven't done it yet because they're always on Thursdays and my schedule doesn't usually allow for it.
 
Where I fly from I can't avoid it. If I go east I have 2 class C and south is a class B. North is fine but I have to climb over mountains. My mentality is I ask for clearance through class B and C with a backup plan. I have never been denied clearance and I actually enjoy flying in the Bravo airspace, it's another set of eyes on me and other traffic. The majority of the time I am asked by flight following when I call up Mugu is how I plan to fly through B. I tell them and that is usually what I get.
 
You'll get the altimeter setting on initial contact and at every handoff. It's not enough to have ATIS. You must have the same ATIS the controller does.

Sorry I thought it was implied that I was referring to the current ATIS of the airspace I was approaching and not somewhere 6 or 600 miles away. Usually when en route & I call up approach and give them my alt, location & correct ATIS info they'll just assign a squawk code; if I forget to mention ATIS everyone I speak to after gives me the alt stetting or I'm told to listen to it and report back after.

You will only contact CD when leaving a parking space at a Class B or C airport. Most of us have to arrive first.

I typically fly out of KAUS so contacting clearance is first on my list. Something that really helped me with ATC communications when I started flying was the below notes sheet that one of my instructors gives to all of her students. Feel free to grab it if you like or pm me if you'd prefer a pdf copy.

733996_150126401815514_522209694_n.jpg
 
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This is clearly the best way to me to do it. In the military we learned radio communications techniques and aircraft "controlling" even though we weren't formally qualified to control via listening.

I fly as a Sport Pilot with a B and C endorsement and get cleared through the Denver Bravo about 95% of the time I ask. As others have said, know what you are going to say, say it clearly, know what they are going to ask for and respond appropriately, get cleared into the Bravo and fly through it.

I still can't understand why some people don't ask for FF and Bravo clearance, but to each their own.

Carl

An excellent way to learn/remember the "script" is to listen to ATC in B & C areas. Call up liveatc.net and listen. Even more fun is to have two windows open and have flightware.com up on the other one. You can watch the path of the specific flight while listening to the dialog between the aircraft and ATC.

I'm fortunate that I live close to Class B and can listen to both Denver and KAPA tower on the handheld. The repetition of the dialog really helped me learn the process.
 
I have read here a few times on some different threads of the trepidation some have for operating in the feared Class Bravo or it's evil little sister Class Charlie airspace....

Can I ask what the fear is an how we as a group can help others in establishing a comfort level in dealing with ATC and getting them to work for you in getting cleared through?

I know for some, Class B ops are the norm of your everyday flying.. for those could you share your technique and foster some advice?

Thanks

John

I have only been denied "B" transition once while going VFR. The controller simply didn't want to deal with me. No biggie, I circled up and over NY's Bravo. Funny, the same controller called and wanted to know if I needed flight following after. Yea, no thanks!

I agree that going IFR is easier sometimes unless you get the dreaded
"Standby for an amendement to your route".......

I have listened to those that simply have horrible radio skills and depending on the controller, you aint getting in to the bravo!
Sound like a pro and understand what your being asked to do and the process will make entry much easier. Unsure about B or C procedures, take a CFI and go fly w/ he or she to brush up on these important skills.
 
I agree that going IFR is easier sometimes unless you get the dreaded
"Standby for an amendement to your route".......
Oh so true.. though there are a couple places I like to go where it's not practical to climb to the MEA because it's like a 30 minute flight and the MEA is 10,000. In those cases, I just transition the bravo and get FF. Assuming of course that weather allows.
 
I have only been denied "B" transition once while going VFR. The controller simply didn't want to deal with me. No biggie, I circled up and over NY's Bravo. Funny, the same controller called and wanted to know if I needed flight following after. Yea, no thanks!

I agree that going IFR is easier sometimes unless you get the dreaded
"Standby for an amendement to your route".......
.
Having the IR experience and capability is the best ticket to the show. But knowing how a particular airspace is worked can be the real trick. Sometimes flying on a clearance is the worse way to transition a Class B/C, NY in particular. I was cleared for a PA to Long Island flight and found myself getting an amendment that seemed to include 3 additional states. I canceled and was immediately cleared direct with a class B clearance. The controller will never offer it, but will open the door if you can figure out how things work.
 
I've found it to be really annoying to skirt around a class C or B without flight following--and if you have flight following, you're pretty much cleared through the C--my first solo XC, I popped up right under the Charlie, and TRACON got a little bit flustered because I was just outside the C, but close enough to be a hazard for an incoming DHC-8. So, while it's unavoidable if you're just popping up, I think it can be much safer to get cleared through as opposed to staying just outside, especially without radar services. Not sure if you people with more experience agree.
 
Sometimes you don't have a choice. You will NOT get clearance into Class B over San Francisco Bay even over 8000 feet (tried that) -- that's 2500 above the KSFO 28 IAFs. NorCal will insist you stay above or below, and I've done both. Above is easier, BTW. Clearance outside the bay is often easy to get, especially west.

Aside from that, I'm in full agreement.

Anyone who would do a cross-country anywhere around the Bay without VFR flight following needs their head examined. There is a ton of traffic, much of it turbine powered, especially east and south.
 
No. That's recipe for a huge reroute. What's that intersection west of ORD again?

Possibly, but around here, not so much. And in addition, filing takes away a lot of worry about airspace, and we've got lots of ways to get in trouble around here, flying a VFR X-C.
 
Possibly, but around here, not so much. And in addition, filing takes away a lot of worry about airspace, and we've got lots of ways to get in trouble around here, flying a VFR X-C.

If weather permits and you don't like your route, just cancel. Just because you started the flight doesn't mean you can't cancel the IFR plan. I am most definitely in the "file and stay out of trouble" group though.. I've taken longer routes to do that. It's worth an extra 20 minutes max (I'm talking MAX) to avoid a violation.
 
Possibly, but around here, not so much. And in addition, filing takes away a lot of worry about airspace, and we've got lots of ways to get in trouble around here, flying a VFR X-C.

There are times it is good to do so, but to say to always do so is not necessarily the best course of action.
 
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