Civil Air Patrol questions

CAP rules allow limited people to fly in CAP aircraft. AFJRROTC can do orientation flights in CAP aircraft. There is also the TOPS program for STEM teachers to have a special CAP membership and get orientation rides.

It took me 2 flight (one onboarding practice and one check ride) to get CAP qualified for VFR, IFR, transport missions and cadet orientations and G1000 qualified.
ROTC and TOPS are defined in national policy. I’m referring to local scout troops or others that request flights. Around here, only by Wing permission and it’s probably not going to happen. Altho, when the director of FEMA was here to view flood damage, he did get a ride.
 
Here are three CAP cadets who really proved themselves worthy of the uniform:

https://www.cap.news/california-cadets-save-elderly-choking-victim-in-restaurant/

March 13, 2023
California Cadets Save Elderly Choking Victim in Restaurant

Three cadets having lunch at a Cupertino, California, restaurant sprang into action to save a choking elderly woman’s life March 4.

Cadet Capt. Samhita Srivatsan, Cadet 2nd Lt. Esme Chen, and Cadet Tech. Sgt. Maxim Manokhin, all members of the California Wing’s Jón E. Kramer Composite Squadron 10, were finishing their meal when one of the waitstaff came to their table to ask if anyone knew the Heimlich maneuver. Because they were seated in a far corner, the cadets were the second-to-last customers to be asked to help.

All three immediately rushed over to the emergency. The choking victim, a 78-year-old, was trapped in a dining booth. Her skin was already cold and pale and her lips blue, indicating loss of blood oxygen. She was surrounded by her frantic family – husband, son, and grandchildren.

The cadets were shocked at how severe the situation already was. “I remember thinking ‘please don’t let it be too late…please don’t let this be the day I see someone die,’” Srivatsan recalled.

Chen, who had completed her American Red Cross first aid/CPR/automated external defibrillator certification in February as part of Civil Air Patrol emergency services ground team training, started to draw on what she learned. She quickly assessed the scene for safety hazards while Srivatsan dialed 911.

The cadets took charge, assuring worried family members that Chen was first aid-certified. “We had to get the lady out of the booth first, but she was already unconscious,” Manokhin said.

They came together as a team to clear the area of tables and lower the woman out of the booth and to the ground. Srivatsan remained on the phone with 911 to provide critical information about the woman’s condition and ensure first responders were en route. She and Manokhin also managed the growing crowd and chaos to allow space for Chen to perform back blows and abdominal thrusts.

After several sets, the obstruction the woman had choked on was partially dislodged. She started wheezing and was able to breathe again.

Within five minutes, firefighters and paramedics arrived. The cadets continued to help by calming the shocked grandchildren.

“One of them told us she was 12 and the other was probably 8,” Srivatsan said “They were in tears when they hugged us.

“We were all so relieved.”

After being cleared by paramedics, the woman thanked the cadets. She told them she suffered from Parkinson’s disease, putting her at particularly high risk during the incident.

Restaurant staff said they were grateful and impressed by the teenagers who stepped up – the only ones among many patrons and staff who knew what to do and acted calmly and without hesitation.

An emergency room physician presented with the scenario and asked to comment said that since the patient already had discolored blue skin, was elderly, had a pre-existing neurological condition, and had to wait five minutes until paramedics arrived, “I have little doubt that those kids saved her life and saved her from possible brain damage. Good on them, more people should get training and be willing to act.”
_____
1st Lt Kai E. Chen
Public Affairs Officer
Jon E. Kramer Composite Squadron 10
California Wing
 
Altho, when the director of FEMA was here to view flood damage, he did get a ride.

It there is a declared disaster FEMA can request CAP assistance through the AF, then disaster employees are authorized. I used to work for FEMA< and the MN Red River flood, CAP ran a daily shuttle up to East Grand Forks and back each day, transporting FEAM people
 
Hmm, "retired" so how much is his retirement pay???? And Major is a COMMISSIONED officer, so holds a Commission from the US Congress. Ask to see his.

Separated (not - Retired) Captain, MD ANG/USAFR
Current 2LT, MD Wing CAP.

Busted down to a butter bar
 
The OP’s story doesn’t surprise me. I was involved with the CAP for a short time about ten years ago. The incredible amount of red tape soured me on the whole thing pretty quickly. The pilots for the most part weren’t bad. A few of them were top notch guys. There were some people as described by the OP that I found irritating. I did my time as a radar technician and junior NCO in the Army. In a true military environment the hierarchy and discipline is a necessary part of the whole thing. Although the CAP like the OP describes irritated me, I felt rather sorry for them. They apparently had never had a situation in their life that provided any self worth. The case described by the OP is, in my experience unusual, but when a volunteer equates themselves as someone who spent a career as a military commissioned officer, they have a serious disconnect with reality. In actuality that persons experience equates more accurately to a long time Boy Scout troop leader.

As far as the OP’s co worker being a veteran, ask him if he has a DD214. I don’t think he would, but possibly so. If not, he is CLEARLY not a veteran and not entitled to any veterans benefits. Period!
 
My son was in CAP before heading off to USAFA. I was astonished at the politics and showboating of this civilian organization.

Someone needs to have a “come to Jesus” conversation with this guy. Feel free to PM me his contact info.

LTC (retd)

Go get ‘em Colonel!!
 
Last edited:
I think the Boy Scouts has a pretty clear vision: it's about developing boys (err young people...) ethics and values to be consistent with the scout law.

But boy scouts is for the boys, not the adult leaders. Sure the adult leaders may get something out of it, but the focus is on keeping the boys out of trouble and becoming good leaders and good people in general.

CAP, in contrast, seems to try to do too much and be all things to all people. During my time in, the cadet aspect of the organization never seemed to gel well with the operational mission of a USAF auxiliary.

it's been a few years since I've been in. But my son is almost 8 and is an avid Cub Scout. When he graduates from Cubs, there will likely be a question of whether to pursue CAP with him or move up to Boy Scouts.

The only thing to point out to you here is that the “Boy” Scouts is no longer limited to boys. I do tours at our warbird museum and was quite surprised when a large troop consisted of about 50/50 boys/girls. I don’t care. It’s their business, but it was surprising.
 
I've posted on this topic a couple of times.
When I was in the CAP it was a life changing experience.
I was in Peekskill Composite Squadron, Westchester Group (New York) from 1964 until I enlisted in the Air Force in 1969.
I went from a Cadet Third Class to Cadet Captain, and became the Cadet Commander of the squadron before I left.
During that time I had 276 Search and Rescue sorties. We were awarded 2 Unit Citations for outstanding search and rescue missions. One of those missions lasted over a month.
As part of the Westchester Group, I went on CAP trips to the Redstone Arsenal (in a C-97), competed twice at the International Drill Competition in Montreal Canada 1966/1967 (in C-119s), and went to Buckley Field Colorado for jet orientation (F-100s)
We also had a minimum of two military encampments every year, Ft Slocum, Camp Smith, Griffiss AFB, Plattsburg AFB, and others, where we trained in every aspect of search and rescue including search techniques, first aid, winter and summer survival, radio operations, even setting up and operating a field kitchen. I got my ham license through the CAP and was part of the National CAP Emergency network every Tuesday night.
We drilled, took aviation related classes and weapons training every Wednesday night. And we flew, a lot. We had a B-25, a B-17, 3 PA-18s, 2 T-34's, a Navion, and a Bamboo Bomber. Sadly we had to give up the B-17 and B-25 in 1965. The B-17 to the Coast Guard and they converted it to drop life rafts. The Air Force took back the B-25 for some General.

When I got out of the Air Force in 1973 I thought about getting back in, but Peekskill Squadron, no longer existed and I just didn't have time. I had kids, I was working full time at IBM and I was going to college 5 nights a week and all day Saturday.
When I moved to my current home, I decided to look up my old friends from Poughkeepsie Squadron. During my time in the CAP we used to stage out of KPOU in Poughkeepsie, I knew everyone in the squadron. It's true. You can never go home. No one was left, they hadn't done a SAR mission since 1971. I still don't know what it is they actually do.
Very sad ending to what was once a really great program.

A good example of how wide the CAP experience can vary.
 
Busted down to a butter bar

Nope, prompted from Senior Member to one. :D

Actually, trying to track down the paperwork that was submitted to get me Capt based on my prior service.

Although being a 2nd LT is not a bad thing. You are not expected to know or do anything. :D
 
CAP of old is not CAP of now. But there is variation from squadron to squadron and wing to wing.

But the old entrenched, been in the job for many years is gone. Now terms in command positions are limited. Which also causes some issues.
 
The only thing to point out to you here is that the “Boy” Scouts is no longer limited to boys. I do tours at our warbird museum and was quite surprised when a large troop consisted of about 50/50 boys/girls. I don’t care. It’s their business, but it was surprising.

Are boys allowed in the girl scouts.??
 
Are boys allowed in the girl scouts.??
Both Boy and Girl Scouts were seeing memberships plummet a few years ago.

Boy Scouts decided to bolster their ranks by raiding the Girl Scouts membership and allowing in girls.
 
Both Boy and Girl Scouts were seeing memberships plummet a few years ago.

plummet is an unrealistic word and "a few years ago" was 1967. Scouting has seen declines very similar to the number of pilots, perhaps there is a common cause?
 
plummet is an unrealistic word and "a few years ago" was 1967. Scouting has seen declines very similar to the number of pilots, perhaps there is a common cause?

Maybe, but the scouts have suffered from non-common causes such as a national sex scandal and resulting bankruptcy that didn’t help them either.


Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts suffer huge declines in membership
https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-health-coronavirus-pandemic-7afeb2667df0a391de3be67b38495972
 
Membership in clubs in general has been declining for a long time covering two or three generations. It’s just a cultural shift from formal, regimented activites to smaller freeflowing groups and more individual activities.
 
Maybe, but the scouts have suffered from non-common causes such as a national sex scandal and resulting bankruptcy that didn’t help them either.

Well aware - I was an asst scoutmaster when the big court case happened. But that was a minor part of the decline since the mid 60s.
 
No DD 214 form, not a veteran.

Having a DD 214 form is not necessarily a guarantee that the person is truly a veteran. I have one and do not consider myself to be a veteran. Honorable discharge from the Army reserve due to a medical condition, but I was in Army ROTC and blew my commissioning physical due to injuries suffered when a clown ran a stop sign and hit our motorcycle broadside. 49 year ago.


B.S.- Bull$hi+
M.S.- More $hi+
Ph.D.- Piled higher and deeper!

Agreed. And I grew up in the house of a college professor. :)
 
The only thing to point out to you here is that the “Boy” Scouts is no longer limited to boys. I do tours at our warbird museum and was quite surprised when a large troop consisted of about 50/50 boys/girls. I don’t care. It’s their business, but it was surprising.

The scouts not allowing girls was a US issue. I was a member of a troop in germany in the 80s and it was fully integrated. Most of the girls who stuck with it to the level of troop leadership were certainly on the tomboyish side of the spectrum, but gender itself was not a reason not to be in the scouts. All the reasons US scouting gave to resist the change for the longest time turned out to be manufactured.
 
Having a DD 214 form is not necessarily a guarantee that the person is truly a veteran. I have one and do not consider myself to be a veteran. Honorable discharge from the Army reserve due to a medical condition, but I was in Army ROTC and blew my commissioning physical due to injuries suffered when a clown ran a stop sign and hit our motorcycle broadside. 49 year ago.

Agreed. And I grew up in the house of a college professor. :)

A 214 is good enough for me regarding veteran status. Also a CAP member but I probably won’t fly for CAP. Already have planes I can fly and the paperwork is not an incentive to fly for CAP.
 
But the CAP flying is no $$ cost. You pay a bit in time and paperwork. :D

But once you do it a few times, it is not a big deal.
 
Did my Form 5 yesterday. The check pilot is looking to get out. The other check pilot is going to fly wide bodies. And I’m interviewing for a jet job this week in another state, and I’m one of the few guys who was making time to offer instruction to on board candidates and recurrent Form 5s.

The reason I constantly hear for leaving CAP? It’s not the paperwork or lack of flying because the former takes 5 minutes and the funding has been there.

It’s the politics. It’s the guy who has been in 25 years who refuses to make an environment that will retain quality people and wants to add 50 additional steps past the 50 steps actually mandated by CAP.

So you end up with mostly old, sub par pilots just in to get some free flying. And they are flying cadets around when many shouldn’t be.
 
But the CAP flying is no $$ cost. You pay a bit in time and paperwork. :D

But once you do it a few times, it is not a big deal.

Which is fine for the 60 year old retired guy who just wants to fly a few cadet rides a month.

But CAP needs check pilots and instructors, and we don’t need free 182 time. Those people aren’t gonna stick around if everything is made so difficult, and the paperwork is the least of it.
 
I will renew my CFI this year. And keep flying for CAP. And we have another person in the squadron looking to get their CFI.

Sorry, I am a cheap BAS***D (I own a Mooney, any questions? :D ) and will still find time for free flying time.

MD Wing has some quirks, but not too bad. And my squadron are all pretty good people.
 
But the CAP flying is no $$ cost. You pay a bit in time and paperwork. :D

But once you do it a few times, it is not a big deal.
In Colorado ( and I think other states) it’s not always free. USAF, State and a few others pay the aircraft costs. But for training and currency, we often pay out of our pockets, depending on the current wing budget. If there’s money in the official training budget, we’re good. If I want to go out for proficiency in one of the positions, very often the 3 of us are going to split the cost.
 
I have seen that military or ex military people get priority over civilians.
 
In Colorado ( and I think other states) it’s not always free. USAF, State and a few others pay the aircraft costs. But for training and currency, we often pay out of our pockets, depending on the current wing budget. If there’s money in the official training budget, we’re good. If I want to go out for proficiency in one of the positions, very often the 3 of us are going to split the cost.

I have gotten every proficiency flight I have requested. Several wing aircraft are under utilized, so they WANT more flying.

All my flying has been A missions (USAF funded) except my initial Form 5 (but I hear now they are paying for those).

And if you need to fly a C mission (you pay) the price is pretty good. Flying a 182 for a good bit less than a 172 rents for locally.
 
I have seen that military or ex military people get priority over civilians.

I have seen that connected people closer to state HQ got priority over pretty much everyone else for paid-for flying. Dunno whether they were former military, but for some reason it was always the same two old guys who hogged every repositioning 'mission'.
 
In what way?
The ones I have seen go through have gotten the best instructors, paper work fudged, instructors that where able to get them streamlined through,
Check flights were always availiable for them but delayed for the non military, they were given more information about cap in general, procedures. Etc.. once they joined, non military were left to figure it out.
 
To both of you, when was this??

This was the way it was in the past. But in most wings, as I understand it, it is not that way now.

There are 5 pilots currently in my squadron. Two of us are ex-military pilots. We don't get any more flying that the non-ex-military pilots. Everyone that requests proficiency flying gets it approved. Anyone who is available can fly cadet O-rides. As Ops Officer, I tend to actually get less of these, as I make sure everyone else gets whatever they want. Only one pilot is a rated Mission Pilot at this time, but 3 of us are working on it. But I am getting less flights and training opportunities than the other two. Partially because they have a number of training flights, so are closer to being ready for their check ride and partially due to my availability, and weather (had 2 - 3 cancelled due to weather).

As for which instructors we get, it is based on who we request. But all of the ones I have flown will have been good.

MD Wing has a pilot onboarding program with a Teams meeting every so often about the process, and everything is laid out step-by-step. But actually, this came about after I onboarded, so I had to ask lots of questions and figure things out. And in fact, I got shortchanged on onboarding and G1000 flights. But I passed my Initial Form 5, so all is good.
 
Less than 5 yrs ago, That’s about as far as I will post public forum and respect for CAP
 
Last edited:
I have seen that connected people closer to state HQ got priority over pretty much everyone else for paid-for flying. Dunno whether they were former military, but for some reason it was always the same two old guys who hogged every repositioning 'mission'.
I suspect that the prevalence of that practice depends on which wing you're in.
 
I suspect that the prevalence of that practice depends on which wing you're in.

Yes. This was MD wing. I switched to ND wing and we had 10% of the buerocrats and none of the obvious self dealing.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. Because in 18 months, I have seen none of that.

I would be interested (and to do no further) if some would share more info via PM. Or I will give you my email via PM
 
Back
Top