Civil Air Patrol questions

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RonP

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A co-worker joined the CAP for something to do. He was never in the military and is not a pilot. He joined for the experience and was in logistics. He was in long enough to attain the rank of Major. His company business card and email signature has “Retired Major USAF/A” where the /A means adjunct. We work with the military and he introduces himself as a retired USAF Major. He also considers himself a veteran and entitled to the company’s veteran policies such as Veteran’s day off and other veteran policies. Is this appropriate or in bad taste?
 
Stolen Valor…first class dirt bag…also something I have been involved with for years and part of the reason we have a stolen valor law in Texas…it’s sort of simple if you never were subject to UCMJ for 180 days or longer and not for training, your a fraud.
 
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RonP said:
A co-worker joined the CAP for something to do. He was never in the military and is not a pilot. He joined for the experience and was in logistics. He was in long enough to attain the rank of Major. His company business card and email signature has “Retired Major USAF/A” where the /A means adjunct. We work with the military and he introduces himself as a retired USAF Major. He also considers himself a veteran and entitled to the company’s veteran policies such as Veteran’s day off and other veteran policies. Is this appropriate or in bad taste?
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No DD 214 form, not a veteran.
 
RonP said:
A co-worker joined the CAP for something to do. He was never in the military and is not a pilot. He joined for the experience and was in logistics. He was in long enough to attain the rank of Major. His company business card and email signature has “Retired Major USAF/A” where the /A means adjunct. We work with the military and he introduces himself as a retired USAF Major. He also considers himself a veteran and entitled to the company’s veteran policies such as Veteran’s day off and other veteran policies. Is this appropriate or in bad taste?
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How do you not bust out laughing at him every time he pulls that garbage?
 
CAP is partially funded by the USAF but every document that comes out of CAP clearly and unambiguously states it is a civilian, 501(c) organization and I quote from the official declaration:

Civil Air Patrol is a congressionally chartered, federally supported non-profit corporation that serves as the official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force. CAP is a volunteer organization with an aviation-minded membership that includes members from all backgrounds

Please note the word "civilian". In fact CAP cadets are reminded, when in uniform, to salute anyone in uniform, regardless of rank, regardless of which of the US militaries & Coast Guard and Medical Service.

1) CAP members are expected to render military courtesy and salute all officers higher in rank, whether they be CAP, USAF, or other Military Branches. Active, Reserve and Guard component members are NOT required to render courtesies to us, but the are ALLOWED to (and when they do, it is appreciated, and returned).

2) According to Air Force instruction, CAP is considered part of the Total Force when operating on Air Force assigned missions, and are considered Airmen, alongside Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilian Components of the USAF.

In other words, even the highest ranking CAP officer is less than dirt when it comes to reality.

CAP senior members are frequently reminded (when something like the OP described) that CAP ranks, outside of CAP, mean absolutely nothing, they're the equivalent of Boy Scout merit badges. CAP members do NOT have on base privs unless they are offered as a courtesty (e.g. cadets during encampment at USAFA in the summer may use the on-base convenience store (the one NOT inside the cadet area) but may not use the Commissary.
 
Hmm, "retired" so how much is his retirement pay???? And Major is a COMMISSIONED officer, so holds a Commission from the US Congress. Ask to see his.

Separated (not - Retired) Captain, MD ANG/USAFR
Current 2LT, MD Wing CAP.
 
Most people don’t even know that many National Guard and Reservist are not considered Veterans. If you do not serve more than 179 days in a row while on federal orders, you don’t meet the criteria. Training is not counted…so a pure NG member may never hit that criteria even if they spend a year or two training for their MOS. A recent change in the law made anyone with 20 years of service in this status a Veteran. There is an exception if you are permanently disabled or killed during training.
 
Warlock said:
Most people don’t even know that many National Guard and Reservist are not considered Veterans. If you do not serve more than 179 days in a row while on federal orders, you don’t meet the criteria.
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That is a State determination. Which is not to mean there are not also Federal aspects. Certainly when it comes to Veteran Benefits, there are Federal definitions in terms of how many days of active duty and such.

However that still does not mean that a Part Time National Guard is not a Veteran. Necessarily.

While that may be true in your state, that may not be true in another State.
What is meant by "Veteran" is similar to what is meant by "Night" (by the FAA). Meaning. The word "Veteran" conveys different concepts in different contexts.

In my State, people who served part time in the National Guard (without 180 days of continuous active duty service) have positively and unambiguously been determined to be "Military Veterans" by the State. And this does come with a DD214. And an indication on State Issued Driver's license based on submitted DD214 which indicates VETERAN without difference as to what type or status of Veteran. At the National Level, certain Military Veteran benefits are available (based on submitted DD214) without requiring full time or even the 180 days active service such as VA Home Loan.

At the end of the day, be proud of what you did. Whether that is the Active Military, Reserve Military, Part time or Full time, State National Guard or Civil Air Patrol or Coast Guard Auxiliary. It makes no sense to serve in one of these capacities yet be so ashamed of what one did that one feels the need to pretend to have done something else.

One Military Veteran dismissing another Military Veteran based on their own preconceived notion of what "REALLY" counts as a Veteran is imho just as distasteful and icky as somebody claiming a particular Military or Veteran status other than what is legitimate.
 
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RonP said:
We work with the military and he introduces himself as a retired USAF Major.
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This is the most shocking part to me. I'm not surprised there are *******s who would try to use CAP wiggle their way into company's vet benefits or something like that, as inappropriate and scummy as that is. But if the company works with the military, and you have somebody going around introducing themselves as a retired USAF major when they were a "major" in CAP, it seems like a good way to lose a lot of business fast. I'm surprised anyone above him allows it on company business.
 
Warlock said:
Most people don’t even know that many National Guard and Reservist are not considered Veterans. If you do not serve more than 179 days in a row while on federal orders, you don’t meet the criteria. Training is not counted…so a pure NG member may never hit that criteria even if they spend a year or two training for their MOS. A recent change in the law made anyone with 20 years of service in this status a Veteran. There is an exception if you are permanently disabled or killed during training.
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This problem, like many others, has been solved by modern society. I've noticed that recent job applications now ask whether I "identify as a veteran."
 
I guess he can put what he wants on a business card as long as it's not for purposes of fraud. But, as others have noted, he's not a veteran; CAP is a civilian non-profit chartered by congress. I flew with CAP for 14 years, was a CAP "Captain", but when a family member was commissioned as an Officer of Marines I could not administers the oath because I did NOT hold a commission. The Coast Guard Auxiliary doesn't mess with that nonsense, and are more tightly aligned with AD Coast Guard. My impression was USAF thought of CAP as a minor annoyance - one correction, I think - USAF has oversight of the $$$, but they money is earmarked by congress - USAF doesn't fund CAP so much as oversee the budget.

There are some solid folks in CAP, but too large a sprinkling of people like this guy, too. It's a thick, clumsy bureaucracy, with a much reduced mission and is struggling for relevance. I'd be embarrassed on occasion when one of the weenies would pull this crap with other agencies. We did some good work, sometimes interesting stuff (I got to fly as an intercept target for F-16s for example) - but the "wannabe" count was too high, too often.
 
My son was in CAP before heading off to USAFA. I was astonished at the politics and showboating of this civilian organization.

Someone needs to have a “come to Jesus” conversation with this guy. Feel free to PM me his contact info.

LTC (retd)
 
Somewhat related, I know someone who made it through a few weeks of Army basic training. This is when they looked at the bottom of the barrel during lean times with the Gulf War. ‘She’ was a former druggie, should of never been allowed in.

Anyway, she eventually got a medical discharge, never graduating basic, including ‘disability’. Now she has a DAV license plate, gets payments every month, and is the very 1st in line at every veteran freebie event.

Another guy, a neighbor of a work partner was supposedly discharged decades ago. The rub is, he was in such a secret military program, they erased his history, no DD-214. I told the work partner not to believe the B.S..
 
What a douchebag.

Now to his credit, if you read CAP internal communications long enough, you could come away with the message that CAP is part of USAF. The higher ups certainly like to pretend it is.
 
I have a brother-in-law that’s been in the guard a couple years now. He hasn’t left home other than training and some storm cleanup. I was surprised to see him sporting a veteran license plate the last time I saw him. In my own mind, I didn’t think that really made the cut.
 
If he’s gone out and flown the mighty C182 “rescue ranger” through hostile US skies, he deserves to claim veteran. Just my opinion.

CW3 (ret)
 
sourdough44 said:
Somewhat related, I know someone who made it through a few weeks of Army basic training. This is when they looked at the bottom of the barrel during lean times with the Gulf War. ‘She’ was a former druggie, should of never been allowed in.

Anyway, she eventually got a medical discharge, never graduating basic, including ‘disability’. Now she has a DAV license plate, gets payments every month, and is the very 1st in line at every veteran freebie event.

Another guy, a neighbor of a work partner was supposedly discharged decades ago. The rub is, he was in such a secret military program, they erased his history, no DD-214. I told the work partner not to believe the B.S..
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He was "Agent Orange" wasn't he?
 
I have two friends who are active in the Civil Air Patrol. I know they do some good things, but over the years, I have observed a lot of questionable behavior. We had a CAP safety meeting at our airport, and at one point they were taking off in opposite directions on the same runway. Some were out simulating an emergency at the same time we had a real emergency at our airport, and they never knew. A CAP search and rescue mission in northern Wisconsin went on a couple of days, but the actual downed airplane was spotted by someone else without the radio equipment to detect a ELT signal.

One of my friends who flys for the CAP had a flat tire on landing. They made him pay for it.

But the real topper is watching fat old CAP guys bossing around the young people in fatigues at AirVenture. Pathetic.
 
Yet another reason why CAP needs to go away.
 
murphey said:
CAP is partially funded by the USAF but every document that comes out of CAP clearly and unambiguously states it is a civilian, 501(c) organization and I quote from the official declaration:

Civil Air Patrol is a congressionally chartered, federally supported non-profit corporation that serves as the official civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force. CAP is a volunteer organization with an aviation-minded membership that includes members from all backgrounds

Please note the word "civilian". In fact CAP cadets are reminded, when in uniform, to salute anyone in uniform, regardless of rank, regardless of which of the US militaries & Coast Guard and Medical Service.

1) CAP members are expected to render military courtesy and salute all officers higher in rank, whether they be CAP, USAF, or other Military Branches. Active, Reserve and Guard component members are NOT required to render courtesies to us, but the are ALLOWED to (and when they do, it is appreciated, and returned).

2) According to Air Force instruction, CAP is considered part of the Total Force when operating on Air Force assigned missions, and are considered Airmen, alongside Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilian Components of the USAF.

In other words, even the highest ranking CAP officer is less than dirt when it comes to reality.

CAP senior members are frequently reminded (when something like the OP described) that CAP ranks, outside of CAP, mean absolutely nothing, they're the equivalent of Boy Scout merit badges. CAP members do NOT have on base privs unless they are offered as a courtesty (e.g. cadets during encampment at USAFA in the summer may use the on-base convenience store (the one NOT inside the cadet area) but may not use the Commissary.
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So it is basically Boy Scouts for grown (at least outwardly ) men.
 
I'm a little confused/uncertain.

Was the guy in the CAP "long enough to attain the rank of Major"? As in the CAP "rank" of Major?
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm a little confused/uncertain.

Was the guy in the CAP "long enough to attain the rank of Major"? As in the CAP "rank" of Major?
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If he was a cadet in CAP (18 years or younger), then he could’ve received the rank of Cadet Major. All cadets’ rank are proceeding with “cadet.” The instructors, or cadre, are the adults. While they may have been prior service, their rank is equally made up. IE, my son’s CAP squadron commander was retired LTC / O5 from the Army, but she wore a bird on her shoulder (COL / O6) when in CAP uniform. She and her wife (a retired CW3) had a cadet son in the program, who was about as low-speed as they come, but he managed to get all of the opportune assignments from CAP.

Just an example of the shenanigans that make that organization a hollow shell of what it once was.
 
I've known a couple of disabled vets. One got drunk and wrecked his car on the NY State Thruway during the time of the Vietnam war. Another took a bullet in his back during the assault of Okinawa. I'll let you guess which one asked for special treatment at work.

As to the original guy? I'd just introduce him to any of the other business people as "I'd like you to meet Jim, former civil air patrol", and let them draw their own conclusions. If he complains, sincerely ask if he's not proud of his service.
 
I was in the CAP so long ago that I've forgotten what my "rank" was ... I think it was "Cadet", but I'm not certain. Anyway, it was at Reid's Hillview Airport near San Jose, California, and most of the instructors (or mentors) were good guys and WWII veterans. I was only a member for a year or so, before my family moved East, but I remember my time in the CAP as a "good time". From the comments in this thread, I guess that things have changed ... not necessarily for the better.
 
Capngrog said:
I was in the CAP so long ago that I've forgotten what my "rank" was ... I think it was "Cadet", but I'm not certain. Anyway, it was at Reid's Hillview Airport near San Jose, California, and most of the instructors (or mentors) were good guys and WWII veterans. I was only a member for a year or so, before my family moved East, but I remember my time in the CAP as a "good time". From the comments in this thread, I guess that things have changed ... not necessarily for the better.
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One man's experience:

CAP at Reid-Hillview has separate senior and cadet squadrons that meet on different days. I'm in the senior squadron so I'm not personally familiar with the operations of the cadet squadron, but I know very well a senior member who recently transferred from the senior squadron to the cadet squadron. He specializes in giving cadets orientation rides, and gives them pretty much every weekend that weather permits, so he concluded that being in the cadet squadron would be a better fit for him at this point in his CAP service. He had been in the senior squadron for years, and we have also shared and are sharing maintenance-officer duties, so I know him well. I can tell you that he is a standup guy, and would not be in a squadron that was not on the up-and-up. I can also tell you that in 30 years in CAP in this area, while I have occasionally had criticisms or heard criticisms of things that individual members have done, those are not the norm here, and I have not seen anything like the stuff that people on forums have complained about elsewhere. Furthermore, my observation is that over the past thirty years, if anything the integrity, fairness, and competence of operations have improved.
 
Racerx said:
Yet another reason why CAP needs to go away.
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Someone willing to do this will do this despite CAP. Just curious your justification in making this statement.

My story? Six years Navy enlisted. E4 on exit. Joined CAP a year ago. My squadron admits that S&R is not a major component any longer. We still train and prepare, and recently flew a mission on S&R (not me but a friend of mine flew part of the sortie), but the emphasis has shifted more to STEM. Getting kids into flying but also science in general.

Why did I join? To enjoy the company of like-minded adults. Those that care for service to the country. But I also am an educator and care about the promotion of STEM and that’s the role that I fill. And that is a major CAP/civilian work in progress. Tomorrow I have coordinated a CAP/University drone event in an elementary school. Get kids some stick time. Wouldn’t have happened without CAP.

Maybe get involved in your local squadron. Work towards positive changes and don’t focus on one a-hole that is always going to exist somewhere.
 
“Retired Major USAF/A” where the /A means adjunct.

Rank non-withstanding, I believe the “A” represents Auxiliary

Meaning the AF funds certain missions but not all.
 
woodchucker said:
Someone willing to do this will do this despite CAP. Just curious your justification in making this statement.

My story? Six years Navy enlisted. E4 on exit. Joined CAP a year ago. My squadron admits that S&R is not a major component any longer. We still train and prepare, and recently flew a mission on S&R (not me but a friend of mine flew part of the sortie), but the emphasis has shifted more to STEM. Getting kids into flying but also science in general.

Why did I join? To enjoy the company of like-minded adults. Those that care for service to the country. But I also am an educator and care about the promotion of STEM and that’s the role that I fill. And that is a major CAP/civilian work in progress. Tomorrow I have coordinated a CAP/University drone event in an elementary school. Get kids some stick time. Wouldn’t have happened without CAP.

Maybe get involved in your local squadron. Work towards positive changes and don’t focus on one a-hole that is always going to exist somewhere.
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Yeah, looking for lost aircraft is fairly rare lately, probably because of improvements in navigation equipment. We still get occasional ELT missions, which are almost all false alarms, but they still have to be dealt with to avoid the possibility of masking a real emergency. Here in California, we have been getting disaster relief tasking, and disaster assessment flights using airborne photography and video. We are also tasked about once a month with serving as targets for Air Force pilots to practice interception procedures. (That one is a very popular mission!)
 
Palmpilot said:
Yeah, looking for lost aircraft is fairly rare lately, probably because of improvements in navigation equipment. We still get occasional ELT missions, which are almost all false alarms, but they still have to be dealt with to avoid the possibility of masking a real emergency. Here in California, we have been getting disaster relief tasking, and disaster assessment flights using airborne photography and video. We are also tasked about once a month with serving as targets for Air Force pilots to practice interception procedures. (That one is a very popular mission!)
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Utah here but agree the emphasis lately has been flooding and earthquake scenarios; flying recon missions. Plus the O-ride and glider flights as well as the sUAS component.

Never heard about the target scenario missions. Not sure I trust an AF weenie to not get overexcited with live weapons :D
 
Colorado has drone duty once in a while….tasked to keep the drones in sight while the Army folk learn to fly them from the trailer. Also flood & snow storm photos like Utah and Cal. We’re cheap, and available, so the state and local sheriffs love us. Plus the Orides, CyberPatriot, drones, rockets, etc for the cadets.
 
woodchucker said:
Utah here but agree the emphasis lately has been flooding and earthquake scenarios; flying recon missions. Plus the O-ride and glider flights as well as the sUAS component.

Never heard about the target scenario missions. Not sure I trust an AF weenie to not get overexcited with live weapons :D
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I don't know whether they fly those missions with ammo/missiles onboard or not.
 
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