City trying to close FBO. Claims tainted fuel

Not a swing and a miss.....I'd say Noobie fouls out.

Your manners yourself were pretty terrible, yourself.....and we have no idea who you really are, you haven't said.
noobie said:
Irony - being called out on a mesage board for using a moniker by a poster using a MONIKER...
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Mr. Edward Frederick is manager of an airport. 6Y9. He's well vetted in person to many of us, may be ?100. Who the heck are you? Got a name? YOU raised the issue. Time to put up or shut up.
 
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Florida Cracker said:
That is the buggest pile of rat turd, this side of washington. SO WHAT?? If someone submits 1000 FOIA requests, SO WHAT? It is freedom of information that subverts many forms of corruption but the half baked city lawyers, wasting the taxpayers money, seem intent on criminalizing freedom of information to avoid the light of day shining on their little fiefdom of corruption.
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What are you talking about? FOIA is only applicable to federal activities. Rant about Texas.
 
alaskaflyer said:
What are you talking about? FOIA is only applicable to federal activities. Rant about Texas.
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Many states, including Texas, have similar laws.

Texas Government Code, Chapter 552, gives you the right to access government records; and an officer for public information and the officer's agent may not ask why you want them. All government information is presumed to be available to the public. Certain exceptions may apply to the disclosure of the information.

For complaints regarding failure to release public information please contact your local County or District Attorney at: 512-473-9415 (Travis County Attorney) or 512-473-9400 (Travis County District Attorney) You may also contact the Office of the Attorney General, Open Records Hotline, at 512-478-6736 or toll-free at 1-877-673-6839.



http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/agency/customer/pia.html
 
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alaskaflyer said:
Yep. I'm aware. Matter of fact the Texas law was specifically mentioned in a previous post. But unless the capitol of Texas is now Washington...
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Is your complaint simply that the poster used the acronym "FOIA" instead of "PIA", or am I missing something more significant here?
 
Wow I just got back to this thread and read the entire thing, what a saga.

When we had a little trouble with a nearby political entity who seemed to think it was untouchable, everyone was talking about how it was time to call in the Texas Rangers, who list on their website the following duty; "public corruption investigations"

Bring in the Rangers!


I had no idea the Wink, Texas (Winkler Co) nurse vs Dr scandal had reached the news so far from home! Another abomination of our both our medical and legal systems.... so bad that this guy is still at work at the same hospital!
 
Jim_R said:
Is your complaint simply that the poster used the acronym "FOIA" instead of "PIA", or am I missing something more significant here?
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My "complaint" is that a certain someone who would rather engage in wild rambling complaints about the gubmint than actually educate themselves on the particulars of a certain subject has once again soiled another thread here. It is more than using the wrong acronym.

Back to the regularly scheduled...well, whatever this thread is :idea:
 
HTML:
We call them "Open Records Requests," in Texas, and they work just like, and for the same purpose as, "FOIA" requests.

For what it's worth, I don't think the fact that someone is a layperson, not fully-versed in the vagaries of municipal governance, should be ridiculed because they cry "rat" when they smell one.

Remember - elected officials work for the citizens, not the other way around, and when they invoke their governmental powers, they'd better (1) do so with proper cause, and (2) do so within the limited scope of this powers.
 
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Noobie said:
Swing and a miss...I work at ABIA. I have been paying attention to the airport issuses for quite some time as I told you before. Not being based at NB, and being on the outside looking in, you have made some interesting allegations but you've also come across as extremist and paranoid.

At any rate, you don't have to persuade the majority in this forum, your real audience should be the folks in and around New Braunfels. That's why I think posting your analysis would be so interesting. If the document is what you say it is, it would be difficult to argue with. Hopefully you will get the technical posting difficulties worked out soon.

As for meeting you at the airport - don't think that's something I'm interested in right now - I'll see if you learn to mind your manners.
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Henry Kissenger, a very wise man, once said "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
 
SCCutler said:
We call them "Open Records Requests," in Texas, and they work just like, and for the same purpose as, "FOIA" requests.

For what it's worth, I don't think the fact that someone is a layperson, not fully-versed in the vagaries of municipal governance, should be ridiculed because they cry "rat" when they smell one.

Remember - elected officials work for the citizens, not the other way around, and when they invoke their governmental powers, they'd better (1) do so with proper cause, and (2) do so within the limited scope of this powers.
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Completely agreed.

But, as regards this open records request, how does the possibility/actuality of litigation affect it? Most FOIA-type laws specifically exempt things like work-product or the A-C privilege, as well as criminal investigations, and from the letter above it looks like Texas is no exception....

Anyway, good luck in getting the whole thing sorted out.
 
Texas' open-records law does, indeed, have an anticipated litigation exception; it, along with the option of seeking an opinion of the Attorney General, during the pendency of which the obligation to supply the requested information is suspended, is often used to resist disclosure of embarrassing records.

My experience has been that governmental agencies which have a good-faith belief in the propriety of their actions withhold very little information, and further, charge very little (if anything) to provide it.

---

I once had an Open Records request I sent (one which did not identify the client) responded to by the counsel for a party which had secured a contract with the agency under the bids for which I sought the documents. His telephonic reply was one which revealed a profound conflict of interest for certain public officials (one might ask, "how did this guy even know about all this?").
 
FYI..

FAA, TxDOT dismisses NB Aero charges against city

FAA, TxDOT dismisses NB Aero charges against city By Greg Bowen New Braunfels Herald-Zeitung Herald-Zeitung | 3 comments

NEW BRAUNFELS - State and federal aviation officials have dismissed allegations that the City of New Braunfels violated the terms of the agreement under which it receives federal grants to improve the city-owned airport.

If the city had been found in violation, the city's ability to get future federal funding for airport improvements could possibly have been affected.



The allegations centered around the strained relationship between the city and New Braunfels Aero Services, which operates an aviation business in facilities leased from the city at New Braunfels Municipal Airport.


"The FAA-TxDOT report affirms that the City has acted appropriately in meeting its obligation to ensure the safe operation of the airport," said City Manager Mike Morrison. "We are looking forward to the growth of the airport and its huge economic potential."


Issues investigated by inspectors from the Federal Aviation Administration and the Aviation Division of the Texas Department of Transportation during a June 29 visit to New Braunfels included the troubled lease-extension negotiations between the city and NB Aero, and a fuel-transfer incident in March that resulted in the city obtaining a restraining order against NB Aero and the closure of the firm's aviation fuel sales operation.

Both issues are the subjects of ongoing court actions.


The agencies also investigated allegations that the city is trying to prevent NB Aero from selling fuel in order to become the airport's sole provider of fuel sales.


In a letter sent Thursday to Airport Manager Lenny Llerena, TxDOT compliance officer William B. Gunn wrote that the allegation regarding lease-related violations is dismissed as long as "any mediation or court action is completed by the best effort of the city and this leasehold is leased in future at a fair and reasonable rate."


As far as the fuel-transfer incident, Gunn said the city's actions during the incident "indicate that the city is actively monitoring the fuel quality sold on the airport and this specific allegation is dismissed."


Concerning the allegation that the city is trying to prevent NB Aero from selling fuel, Gunn wrote: "There is no evidence ... As such, this allegation is dismissed."


The investigation was triggered by complaints filed against the city by NB Aero and a local pilot, Chris Penski.


Gunn urged the city to resolve issues with NB Aero "as quickly as possible so the airport may continue to support the community as it currently does."
 
What you didn't read. My original complaint was changed/reworded and the allegations that I had proved by using Mr. Gunns emails obtained through TPIA(fOIA), Open records requests, (That about covers them all.) When I used his emails to prove he told the airport director he didn't need FAA approval to replace a power pole but later responded to me that the FAA needed to approve. He LIED. That was removed from my complaint.

The fact that Mr. Gunn's job is to give away federal money and he hasn't insured oversight leads me to believe that he can't be trusted. They put the Fox in charge of the hen house here. The same with Chambers from the FAA.

To say he met with us is a half truth. He phoned me at work and said he was at the airport and had about 45 minutes till he would leave. I managed to get a few pilots to meet him but we had no prep time.

As far as lease and court action we welcome the Grand Jury to investigate. This is a stall tactic. I'll post my original complaint soon.

Fuel complaint. No evidence. I'd think stealing someones fuel truck was evidence.

So noobie. Do you get the NB Herald? Do you live in New Braunfels? I wonder why you get the Herald if you don't live there. I don't remember you mentioning where you are from.

Have a great day.
 
bbchien said:
Not a swing and a miss.....I'd say Noobie fouls out.

Your manners yourself were pretty terrible, yourself.....and we have no idea who you really are, you haven't said. Mr. Edward Frederick is manager of an airport. 6Y9. He's well vetted in person to many of us, may be ?100. Who the heck are you? Got a name? YOU raised the issue. Time to put up or shut up.
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I never raised the issue of anyone's name. I asked a few questions that went against the grain and got some folks' backs up. Then they demanded to know who I was, assuming, because i'd asked "touchy" questions, I had to be playing for the other team.

This is either an open forum for the discussion of aviation and aviation related topics, with the stated goal of improving aviation, or it isn't. So, my identity doesn't mean a hill a beans...

If it is, then my requests are 100% in-line with the mission of this board. If it's not, then I can join the chorus in the echo chamber and clap louder...I don't buy gas at this airport so the fuel quality and conduct of this FBO doesn't matter to me.

As a manager of an airport, Mr. Frederick certainly understands the importance of fuel quality. I am sure he'd love to see Chris' analysis too. His document will either prove or disprove his point...no more and no less...and none of us here can change that.

Some of Chris' arguments and statements (and unless you read all of his posts on the local paper's website you've missed some whoppers) border on the absurd - government conspiracies, FAA and TXDOT collusion, a grand conspiracy involing the district attorney's office...That's a lot of people risking their livelihoods..and for what? Why would the FAA, TXDOT and a county's district attorney's office give two rips about who sells gas at a local airport?

So, yeah...swing and a miss!
 
OH NOOBIE, you are so naive. Can you say Silver State Helicopters? How about Colonial Starcraft? Even better yet, a near debacle for the NB airport, Wright Flyers...only in the Wright Flyers case, Wright Flyers left before the city could lavish them with money...yes a city board had voted to lavish them with a new building (while one stood empty) at the airport director's urging ...only fortunately they went south before they declared bankruptcy. Look at the financial statements for the airport since 1996...and you will see..why the city is so intent on being the only fuel supplier. Last fiscal year the city lost $368,000 on the operations ( and no that does not include the additional expense of the very busy air traffic controllers)...yes that means fuel sales alone..wonder why....think think think...could it be the competition was outpacing them with service and fuel? Did you ever ask how the taxiway to nowhere came about? I guess if you bump over the rocks..you could taxi out to the farm to market road to have a really long runway...so maybe it isn't a taxiway to nowhere, huh? Let's see, who had this taxiway built? Can we say the Airport Director, with the approval of TxDot...what a wise, and fiscally responsible action in these really tough times.
 
Didn't that taxiway cost the Taxpayers about $450,000. Did I get the # of zeros correct? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is why Bill Gunn of TxDOT is suspect. We've got his emails to prove it. You didn't read about the power pole complaint because we caught him. There's more.

You see. When the fuel analysis results were withheld we started digging and found lots of strange stuff. Unethical, backroom deals, possibly illegal stuff. But we didn't find Elvis.

Over 50 pilots in the area are involved in this issue. Over 60 aircraft arrived at the fund raiser July 9th. Many more arrived by car, motorcycle and even bicycle.. Many of them witnessed the absurd behavior of the airport director and witnessed the fuel transfer in question. Many have written letters to the editor and made comments in the newspaper. If the city has nothing to hide show us the fuel analysis. I suggest they had no idea of the independent analysis from the look on the fire marshals face when I walked into his office and asked to see his results. He didn't have any he said. Then I pulled out mine and said it didn't take that long. That's when they knew their scheme was falling apart and they claimed a criminal investigation to hide the results from the public.

When the TRO went to court the city had the Guadalupe County DA claim a criminal investigation was underway. I know because I was given the same letter that was given to the Judge requesting the analysis be withheld... NB Aero wasn't involved they said.

Then the city began a media blitz claiming criminal charges were possible.

The city even attempted to withhold the invoice for the fuel analysis but the AG made them release it. $5,400 plus shipping.

Conspiracy theory? No Just plain conspiracy fact. The worst thing that can happen to the city is this goes to a Grand Jury and goes to trial. Then the "Evidence" will be made public.

The city didn't plan on a large and vocal group of pilots getting in the way of their plan to force NBA off the airport and take over their business.

As for whoppers. You only need to read the city attorney letters about that, especially concerning the latest letter to the AG.:nono:

When you stop telling LIES I'll stop telling the TRUTH.

Chris
 
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You know I think your numbers may be a little off...ONLY $425,000..BUT...maybe Noobie can correct us and give us the REAL numbers...how do you calculate the opportunity cost lost along with Colonial Starcraft...ever wonder who the limited partners were...might be worth a open records request...bet the City doesn't know..but just importantly didn't check...ever wonder how much free classroom space was given to Wright Flyers while the deal got worked out...sure saw them studying in the terminal...have you seen any receipts posted in the ledger...oh well..guess that is for another day.:idea:
 
Whats $25,000. Big deal. Its only TAXPAYER MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$425,000

They can get more.

Have you seen the pix of the city fuel farm? They still have not installed Bollards.
 
I guess bollards are too expensive when you spent all your extra slush money on an almost $50,000 tug. Granted its nice...but given the traffic at the airport...was it necessary...have you checked to see if there are any gold plated toilet seats in the terminal...oh don't let that rumor get out...everybody might have to fly-in to have a look...oh hey they could get fuel at the same time...what a brilliant way to increase traffic. You know most people have to look at their budget and spend accordingly..oh I'm sorry we're talking about money trees...hey where are those fuel results you promised mr sonicboom...surely you do mean to let us see them...or are you hiding behind curtains too...eh Noobie...what do you think?
 
Not to keep you all in suspense but I sent the fuel analysis results to SCCutler to post. I haven't got a way to post it myself. I'm sure he will figure out a way to post it as soon as he opens his email
 
Hey..Mr Ultrasonix..have you heard whether there is any overnight hangar space anywhere on the field...sounds like this might be fun for an overnighter...fly in...eat breakfast with you rabble rousing pilots...all of a Saturday morning...then off to the river for a few hours of floating fun...spend the night in a hotel...then back to the airport on Sunday morning. My Birdie just doesn't like to spend the night outside...won't need any fuel...just a place to bed down Birdie.
 
ultrasonix said:
Not to keep you all in suspense but I sent the fuel analysis results to SCCutler to post. I haven't got a way to post it myself. I'm sure he will figure out a way to post it as soon as he opens his email
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I have 5 bucks on the city getting an injunction to prevent SC from posting " critical" information.:mad2::mad2::lol::dunno:.


B.
 
Ben, Your money is safe. It was given to the city during the TRO hearing in April. Again given to TxDOT, FAA, anyone that wanted to see it at the Cafe'. No secrets here. Just not able to post from my PC.

We want to see the citys test results. Now that's a SECRET !

Flylady, The river is a bit crowded on weekends. Maybe we could do it Wednesday.

Is your Birdie a Tiger? I see lots at NBA. Which is yours ?

As for overnight hanger I don't know where you can park it overnight. The city doesn't have any overnight hangers.:dunno:

Be careful when you arrive. The field is in awful shape. Grass growing up around signage and lights making it hard to find your way. Don't try at night either. The construction has many taxiways and runways blocked and the flashing lights on most of the barriers are out. :nono:
 
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My Birdie is the prettiest little tiger you ever saw...and yes I frequent BAZ..used to be a fun place to go...70s and 80s..even into the early 90s...loved SWRFI..Moonlight Fund airshows in the new millineum...but ah...I digress...I guess at my age a Wednesday float would be better...but I got to find room for my Birdie...guess I can call over to the City this week and see if they might find a place for a wayward little Birdie in the middle of the week...I don't even have to be particular as to week...just before it gets too cold to float. What time do you guys get the grub cooking on Wednesdays? Mind I won't come if I can't get my Birdie covered.:goofy:
 
Some of my friends are out of town. You can put it in Joe's hanger. He's at Oshkosh. I have a key.

Buy fuel at Huber Airpark. E70. 6 Mi SE of BAZ. much cheaper. No price gouging. City $5.55 full serve. Huber $4.90
 
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Your wish, my command.

See analysis; the Alcor lab one was fuel from NB Aero's truck; The ConocoPhillips is from the refinery rack. What comes with the tanker.
 

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Great..I'll dip my wings and putter on in Wednesday...be looking for the Green and White Birdie. Gosh...I can't wait to meet you guys...and oh...thanks for getting the fuel results published...we all will feel so much safer...oh BTW...last time I was at BAZ I noted some of the fuel lines at the self service were painted yellow...do you guys really have Jet B? Ya know.. I just got to thinking if that really is Jet B..based on the color of those painted pipes it must be...then you guys must be really expecting a cold winter...cuz hear tell that is where Jet B does best...like Canada...man we could use some of that cooler weather bout now. I do hear that Jet B is a lot more flammable so I guess I would be kind of scared to use the self serve Avgas...guess I will toodle by Huber on my way in...thanks for the alert...definitely not risking this at night...want to be able to see the signs through the weeds as best I can.
 
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SCCutler said:
Remember - elected officials work for the citizens, not the other way around, and when they invoke their governmental powers, they'd better (1) do so with proper cause, and (2) do so within the limited scope of this powers.
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I don't think that they see it that way. Government workers are special, those pesky rules are for ordinary people. I believe that there is a tendency for one government agency to cover for another government agency. Most of the time they get away with it unless somebody raises a ruckus. Good luck.
 
See, this thread proves what I always said, Texans are a bunch of cheats and whiners...
 
Henning said:
See, this thread proves what I always said, Texans are a bunch of cheats and whiners...
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??? :confused:

Perhaps the problem is people of German descent?
 
alaskaflyer said:
My "complaint" is that a certain someone who would rather engage in wild rambling complaints about the gubmint than actually educate themselves on the particulars of a certain subject has once again soiled another thread here. It is more than using the wrong acronym.

Back to the regularly scheduled...well, whatever this thread is :idea:
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bull****.

If you bothered to read, instead of fire off nonsense, you would see that I did not use FOIA as if it were the name of a Texas law, but used the phrase in such a way as to say that freedom of information is a way in which people try keep the goverment honest.

Of course, you have issues when anyone doesn't agree to play the I hate Palin game.
 
SCCutler said:
??? :confused:

Perhaps the problem is people of German descent?
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Could be, but they always talk a big game about how different things are in Texas, and here you have it, same as everywhere... cheats and whiners. The only way NB Aviation or whatever is going to win is find a way to take it straight to the Feds. They will not win at a municipal level, complaining and fighting there is worthless, and they stand a very low chance at state level, basically the Gov or AG need to not like the people in NB. When the local government body wants a franchise to make money, they will get it. The only thing I've ever seen work in the side of an individual in these types of things is a Federal Court injunction. This type of event is not rare and governments play dirty.
 
Henning said:
Could be, but they always talk a big game about how different things are in Texas, and here you have it, same as everywhere... cheats and whiners. The only way NB Aviation or whatever is going to win is find a way to take it straight to the Feds. They will not win at a municipal level, complaining and fighting there is worthless, and they stand a very low chance at state level, basically the Gov or AG need to not like the people in NB. When the local government body wants a franchise to make money, they will get it. The only thing I've ever seen work in the side of an individual in these types of things is a Federal Court injunction. This type of event is not rare and governments play dirty.
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You are, of course, correct - except, I have never heard anything to suggest that folks here in my fair state are in any way less inclined to cheating or bellyaching. The accents may change, the methods may vary, but crooks is crooks, and whiners is whiners, and they're each found everywhere.
 
SCCutler said:
You are, of course, correct - except, I have never heard anything to suggest that folks here in my fair state are in any way less inclined to cheating or bellyaching. The accents may change, the methods may vary, but crooks is crooks, and whiners is whiners, and they're each found everywhere.
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Well, I always heard that "We do things different here in TX"...:dunno::dunno::dunno:
 
People say that everywhere. I've never heard anyone say, "We're the same as those guys over there!"
 
Jim_R said:
People say that everywhere. I've never heard anyone say, "We're the same as those guys over there!"
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True, and that is key to a large part of the problem with humanity and the key reason we need a single language to go much further.
 
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Florida Cracker said:
bull****.

If you bothered to read, instead of fire off nonsense, you would see that I did not use FOIA as if it were the name of a Texas law, but used the phrase in such a way as to say that freedom of information is a way in which people try keep the goverment honest.

Of course, you have issues when anyone doesn't agree to play the I hate Palin game.
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Great way to illustrate my point.

So in your previous post...pray tell, what did Washington have to do with this small town ****ing match over the release of information?
 
alaskaflyer said:
Great way to illustrate my point.

So in your previous post...pray tell, what did Washington have to do with this small town ****ing match over the release of information?
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You seem to be having cognitive issues, here. YOU bring forth Washington to the table then demand I defend YOUR position. Typical liberal crap.
 
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