Cirrus down under chute in NC, right next to house. No injuries.

[Fearless Tower]

I wonder if he knew how to use his autopilot or if it was even operational.

 

[labbadabba]

Again, I think most of us did read it. We already knew that.

Fair enough, I didn't see much discussion about the article after it was posted. That said, I was mostly pleased to see this coming from a mainstream outlet, I appreciated seeing that it was very aviation-specific.

 

[Palmpilot]

As I understand it, he had been airborne for about four hours when he got to Charlotte. Maybe fatigue was a factor.

 

[Palmpilot]

Dunno, he's clearly lined up and when he jogs left it's a fairly abrupt and straight change so:

1. 36C has a MALSR vs 36R which just has REILS so it may have been the first runway sighted when emerging from the clouds. The pilot did not seem terribly familiar with the area and maybe wasn't aware that there were 3 parallel runways...

That sounds like a very likely explanation.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That sounds like a very likely explanation.

It likely explains why he continued toward 36C, but doesn't explain how he was that far out of whack to see/zero in on 36C first. Those runways are literally about one nautical mile apart.

 

[Palmpilot]

It likely explains why he continued toward 36C, but doesn't explain how he was that far out of whack to see/zero in on 36C first. Those runways are literally about one nautical mile apart.

Maybe he was expecting to see a rabbit on his assigned runway.

 

[Everskyward]

It seems that typically the plane slides downslope a ways, dragging the chute behind, until it lodges against something solid.

Sure, one can imagine all sorts of horrible outcomes, like going over a cliff, but I still hold that the vast majority will be less dramatic at 17 kts vertically than 60 kts horizontally - with the latter carrying about 16x more energy if my mental math is right.

But even though the accident is more likely to be survivable, I don't think that I would be any more likely to fly a Cirrus over the mountains at night than a Cessna. That said, I have many hours in single-engine Cessnas in the mountains, although not many at night. But everyone has their own way of thinking about it. I also flew twins that were no better than singles because of the way they were loaded and the DA.

 

[Bill Watson]

If you go all the way to the bottom of the article (updated from the original post) it has the tower tape included. On that tape you hear tower tell him that he is drifting left of the localizer. Later they tell him he is still drifting left toward 36C and cancel his landing clearance (at which point his response to the cancelled landing clearance Is that he has the field in sight).

It really does sound look like he somehow zeroed in and headed straight for 36C when he broke out and completely ignored what the panel and tower controller were trying to tell him.

With a right cross wind, how he even would have been looking toward 36C enough to fail to notice 36R when he broke out is beyond me.

Having done this a few times I can say that it's not that hard to do. Even though I know I will almost always get 36R at KCLT, 36C is much more visible and it's a different color. 36C is the runway you tend to see when the airport is first spotted and I've found myself fixated on it when told to turn inbound on the visual for 36R. It happens landing to the south as well.

Of course the solution to this is to always dial up the localizer even in severe clear.

I love KCLT and the crew at Wilson Air Service - they are the BEST

 

[labbadabba]

It likely explains why he continued toward 36C, but doesn't explain how he was that far out of whack to see/zero in on 36C first. Those runways are literally about one nautical mile apart.

I know that as a fairly inexperienced pilot (not making any suppositions regarding the accident pilot), if I'm in an approaching emergency situation like this person:

1. Running low on fuel
2. Solid IMC
3. Flying a diversion into an unfamiliar airport
4. That airport happens to be the center of a busy Class Bravo

I would certainly feel a cloud of panic on the edges of my consciousness. That tunnel vision would become pretty apparent. I'd seek the first sign of hope I could. In this case, it may well have been that rabbit. He was clearly established on 36R and abruptly changed course presumably when he saw the twinkling MALSR lights. If you're in that state do you even see the REILS off to the right or do you head for the sure thing?

 

[rbridges]

If you go all the way to the bottom of the article (updated from the original post) it has the tower tape included. On that tape you hear tower tell him that he is drifting left of the localizer. Later they tell him he is still drifting left toward 36C and cancel his landing clearance (at which point his response to the cancelled landing clearance Is that he has the field in sight).

It really does sound look like he somehow zeroed in and headed straight for 36C when he broke out and completely ignored what the panel and tower controller were trying to tell him.

With a right cross wind, how he even would have been looking toward 36C enough to fail to notice 36R when he broke out is beyond me.

thanks. I didn't listen to the tape. Too bad his clearance got cancelled when had the field in sight. Even if I were lined up for 36C, I feel like I could land on 36R if the runway was long enough. I'd hate to go back up into the clouds knowing I had little fuel.

IMO, it seems like he couldn't fly an ILS/localizer very well.

 

[Everskyward]

Fair enough, I didn't see much discussion about the article after it was posted. That said, I was mostly pleased to see this coming from a mainstream outlet, I appreciated seeing that it was very aviation-specific.

The author is a pilot and writes about aviation The Atlantic from time to time. He also owns a Cirrus.

 

[Palmpilot]

thanks. I didn't listen to the tape. Too bad his clearance got cancelled when had the field in sight. Even if I were lined up for 36C, I feel like I could land on 36R if the runway was long enough. I'd hate to go back up into the clouds knowing I had little fuel.

IMO, it seems like he couldn't fly an ILS/localizer very well.

Based on the graphic in post #195, it looks like he was doing an acceptable job of following the approach course until he broke out. It reminds me of a favorite saying from one of my old-timer friends: "Dance with the one that brung ya." In other words, we should continue to follow the approach course (and glide slope, if any) after breaking out on an approach.

It also suggests that it's wise to be familiar with which runways have approach lights and which don't at the intended destination and alternate.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I know that as a fairly inexperienced pilot (not making any suppositions regarding the accident pilot), if I'm in an approaching emergency situation like this person:

1. Running low on fuel
2. Solid IMC
3. Flying a diversion into an unfamiliar airport
4. That airport happens to be the center of a busy Class Bravo

I would certainly feel a cloud of panic on the edges of my consciousness. That tunnel vision would become pretty apparent. I'd seek the first sign of hope I could. In this case, it may well have been that rabbit. He was clearly established on 36R and abruptly changed course presumably when he saw the twinkling MALSR lights. If you're in that state do you even see the REILS off to the right or do you head for the sure thing?

I highlighted those two points because I have often seen people here try to downplay flying into busy Class B airports. Kind of like 'oh, it's no big thing'. But if you aren't at the top of your game, it sure CAN be a big deal.

91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

I don't know about you, but to me that involves a lot of review and study of the intended destination and alternate(s) before I even drive to the airport and then I spend time enroute reviewing it again before commencing the arrival and I fly into Class B airports all the time.

Flying into a busy Class B Airport in actual is certainly doable, but it is not something to be taken lightly and needs to be treated with the respect that it is due. Someone who is not feeling proficient or ready for that challenge has no business planning a flight into the Class B airport in LIFR. It's just not good ADM. Why set yourself up for failure?

 

[Fearless Tower]

thanks. I didn't listen to the tape. Too bad his clearance got cancelled when had the field in sight. Even if I were lined up for 36C, I feel like I could land on 36R if the runway was long enough. I'd hate to go back up into the clouds knowing I had little fuel.

His clearance was cancelled because even after they warned him about being left of the localizer, he was continuing directly toward 36C. I think his 'I have the field in sight' as a response to the initial wave off is telling: I don't think he had any clue at that point that he was heading for the wrong runway. The controller had to get him out of there ASAP in order to avoid him landing on top of the jet holding in position.

 

[PaulS]

His clearance was cancelled because even after they warned him about being left of the localizer, he was continuing directly toward 36C. I think his 'I have the field in sight' as a response to the initial wave off is telling: I don't think he had any clue at that point that he was heading for the wrong runway. The controller had to get him out of there ASAP in order to avoid him landing on top of the jet holding in position.

If he had declared an emergency would they have kept the airliner off the runway?

 

[Farmboy]

As it's been reiterated a thousand times, there is no substitute for good airmanship. You can crash any aircraft at any time with poor planning, poor proficiency or lack of attention. No matter what, you have to remember that you are supposed to be piloting an aircraft.

As for crash statistics, a quick look at NTSB for GA operations in the year 2015 show the following - and the data has been edited to simply show those with 5-6 accidents or greater, and I excluded helicopters but included ag operations. There are a lot more factors for a proper statistic, including ratio of aircraft flying and factors in the accident, but it's a simplistic view on raw numbers. (I didn't take the time to review all, but I noticed the Vans might be skewed for two accidents were same date in Italy?)

1285 total accidents, 2015 CY, GA aircraft, (including helicopters)
Accidents per brand, of those with a reported accident number higher than five (5), not including helicopters :

Brand Non-Fatal Fatal Survival Rate
Aeronca 10 1 90%
Air Tractor 20 3 85%
Aviat 9 2 78%
Beech 69 24 65%
Bellanca 9 3 67%
Boeing 6 0 100%
Cessna 338 64 81%
Champion 9 1 89%
Cirrus 19 5 74%
Cub Crafters 6 1 83%
DeHavilland 6 2 67%
Diamond 9 0 100%
Ercoupe 4 0 100%
Flight Design 6 1 83%
Grumman 21 2 90%
Luscombe 11 2 82%
Maule 10 0 100%
Mooney 21 4 81%
Piper 196 49 75%
Raytheon 8 1 88%
Stinson 9 0 100%
Taylorcraft 5 0 100%
Vans 6 3 50%
Waco 4 0 100%
Weatherly 5 1 80%

 

[Paul Hamilton]

If he had declared an emergency would they have kept the airliner off the runway?

I think an emergency declaration would have gotten him either a vector to rejoin 36R or a left downwind to 18L. The airport was above circling minimums and there was 10 miles visibility.

 

[SCCutler]

Sounded like an increasing helmet fire; his responses were often disjointed, incomplete. He should have just declared when he had the field in sight, landed wherever he could and taken his lumps on the ground.

No question, though, the CAPS saved 'em. Another chute win, for sure.

 

[Kritchlow]

I just don't understand how he could have possible thought, when he had a reasonably centered localizer, that the runway was a mile to his left. Waaaayyyy back in the 80's when I did my IR I remember how the sensitivity of the loc had a real impact on me. Something just doesn't seem right.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I just don't understand how he could have possible thought, when he had a reasonably centered localizer, that the runway was a mile to his left. Waaaayyyy back in the 80's when I did my IR I remember how the sensitivity of the loc had a real impact on me. Something just doesn't seem right.

The only thing I can think of is that he was making a big course correction/over correction toward the left and happened to have his nose pointed at 36C when he broke out and then proceeded entirely visually without looking back at the panel.

 

[Kritchlow]

The only thing I can think of is that he was making a big course correction/over correction toward the left and happened to have his nose pointed at 36C when he broke out and then proceeded entirely visually without looking back at the panel.

I guess so, but heck, at that angle (I did not figure out the geometry) I would guess that 36C would not have looked at all lined up.

Quick geometry... 700' AGL, a tad over two miles out (assuming on GS). 36C one mile to left... We can draw the triangle.

 

[Bill Watson]

Sounded like an increasing helmet fire; his responses were often disjointed, incomplete. He should have just declared when he had the field in sight, landed wherever he could and taken his lumps on the ground.

No question, though, the CAPS saved 'em. Another chute win, for sure.

Helmet fire indeed; you are sweating the fuel, the class B and all the rapid fire instructions flying around. You just want to get out of these clouds and get this thing on the ground.

So you break out well early into 10 mile viz and see a big 'ol runway out there that's just a sidestep to the left... and oh, by the way, there's a another runway to the left of that (big, brand new 36L). Must be 36R, I'm going to put the nose on it and land... whoops!

But I'll bet the 36L didn't even play a part because it's visually isolated. 36R is dark colored and blends into the surroundings, 36C is bright and wide and the most visible runway on the airport. Unless you stay on your approach path and ignore the visual clues until the panel says you are where you are supposed to be, this can easily happen at KCLT.

 

[Kritchlow]

Helmet fire indeed; you are sweating the fuel, the class B and all the rapid fire instructions flying around. You just want to get out of these clouds and get this thing on the ground.

So you break out well early into 10 mile viz and see a big 'ol runway out there that's just a sidestep to the left... and oh, by the way, there's a another runway to the left of that (big, brand new 36L). Must be 36R, I'm going to put the nose on it and land... whoops!

But I'll bet the 36L didn't even play a part because it's visually isolated. 36R is dark colored and blends into the surroundings, 36C is bright and wide and the most visible runway on the airport. Unless you stay on your approach path and ignore the visual clues until the panel says you are where you are supposed to be, this can easily happen at KCLT.

I understand your point, and understand the whole visual cue thing if the runways are close together.. For example SFO 28R, 28L. But the CLT runways are not even close. I may be overplaying this, but it seems odd to me.

 

[Kritchlow]

In fact, if you look at the diagram in post 195, it appears he overshot the center and was headed for the left. That is speculation, but it all is at this point.

 

[Bill Watson]

I understand your point, and understand the whole visual cue thing if the runways are close together.. For example SFO 28R, 28L. But the CLT runways are not even close. I may be overplaying this, but it seems odd to me.

Well, I'm definitely overplaying it but the first in cockpit approach vid I found on youtube was this Landing 36R KCLT CAVU

Go to 9:40 and you'll note that the outlines of 36C and 36L are quite visible but 36R is buried in visual clutter despite that fact that you are lined up on it. Follow it all the way in and you'll see it emerge about 1 minute later.

Such a view is not all that realistic but I've wanted to turn to 36C more than once. Works the same way on the 18s.

The preferred visual approach for light plane flyers is on 23 with a left turn on Delta to the GA ramp... if your short field landing technique is good enough. But you have to tell 'em you can turn Delta because they can just barely see you from the tower.

 

[Kritchlow]

Well, I'm definitely overplaying it but the first in cockpit approach vid I found on youtube was this Landing 36R KCLT CAVU

Go to 9:40 and you'll note that the outlines of 36C and 36L are quite visible but 36R is buried in visual clutter despite that fact that you are lined up on it. Follow it all the way in and you'll see it emerge about 1 minute later.

Such a view is not all that realistic but I've wanted to turn to 36C more than once. Works the same way on the 18s.

The preferred visual approach for light plane flyers is on 23 with a left turn on Delta to the GA ramp... if your short field landing technique is good enough. But you have to tell 'em you can turn Delta because they can just barely see you from the tower.

I will look at the vid, but I have been to CLT several times in the past couple of months.

 

[Palmpilot]

1. 36C has a MALSR vs 36R which just has REILS so it may have been the first runway sighted when emerging from the clouds...

It was pointed out on the AOPA board that all three runways have the same approach lighting, ALSF2. I checked the A/FD, and it's true.

 

[Bill Watson]

I will look at the vid, but I have been to CLT several times in the past couple of months.

Try this one for the 18s. Go to 25:00 where the airport is clearly in sight with 18C and 18R laid out clear as day but can you see 18L? How long before you can pick the runway surface out of the visual clutter. I know where it is and you know where it is but would a transient Canadian with a helmet fire well underway get it right? 9 times out of 10, yes.

It's easy on instruments but going visual can be tricky unless familiar.
KCLT 18L CAVU

 

[labbadabba]

It was pointed out on the AOPA board that all three runways have the same approach lighting, ALSF2. I checked the A/FD, and it's true.

Weird, didn't see that on AirNAV

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

 

[Kritchlow]

That took forever.... I didn't see any runway until the end. Never did see 36C. I did see 36R and the parallel taxiway.

 

[N801BH]

Helmet fire indeed; you are sweating the fuel, the class B and all the rapid fire instructions flying around. You just want to get out of these clouds and get this thing on the ground.

So you break out well early into 10 mile viz and see a big 'ol runway out there that's just a sidestep to the left... and oh, by the way, there's a another runway to the left of that (big, brand new 36L). Must be 36R, I'm going to put the nose on it and land... whoops!

But I'll bet the 36L didn't even play a part because it's visually isolated. 36R is dark colored and blends into the surroundings, 36C is bright and wide and the most visible runway on the airport. Unless you stay on your approach path and ignore the visual clues until the panel says you are where you are supposed to be, this can easily happen at KCLT.

Maybe it is just me... But....

When I approach a new airport , I always look close at the AFD and look close at the lay out to bring me up to speed on what I will see..... If a airport had three parallel runways.... I would be counting them.... 1-2-3...

There is mine, all the way to the right..

 

[jsstevens]

Maybe it is just me... But....

When I approach a new airport , I always look close at the AFD and look close at the lay out to bring me up to speed on what I will see..... If a airport had three parallel runways.... I would be counting them.... 1-2-3...

There is mine, all the way to the right..

And I like to add to that sites like airnav where they have photographs as well.

John

 

[flyingron]

And I like to add to that sites like airnav where they have photographs as well.

John

I think Jepp used to do familiarization pics for the airline customers like that at one point.

 

[islandboy]

I have found that the airnav pictures are often too tiny to appreciate. It would be nice were enlarging options available and also options for including shots from different points of view.

And I like to add to that sites like airnav where they have photographs as well.

John

 

[mscard88]

Maybe it is just me... But....

When I approach a new airport , I always look close at the AFD and look close at the lay out to bring me up to speed on what I will see..... If a airport had three parallel runways.... I would be counting them.... 1-2-3...

There is mine, all the way to the right..

Yeah it's just you! I kid I kid!

Another tip is to look at Google Earth for the layout. Helps tremendously. I use it to find addresses, ie businesses, etc.

 

[tuwood]

Yeah it's just you! I kid I kid!

Another tip is to look at Google Earth for the layout. Helps tremendously. I use it to find addresses, ie businesses, etc.

Depending on the area Bing sometimes has higher resolution images in birds eye view. If you go to this link:

http://www.bing.com/maps/#Y3A9MzUuMjE5NjAxfi04MC45NDQzNTcmbHZsPTE2JnN0eT1yJnE9a2NsdA==

Then hit the "birds eye" button on the top left side of the map. It's pretty clear for KCLT

 

[jsstevens]

Yeah it's just you! I kid I kid!

Another tip is to look at Google Earth for the layout. Helps tremendously. I use it to find addresses, ie businesses, etc.

Yes! Good tip. I do that also.

In preparation for my first night flight (KORL-KOCF) I flew the route at night in MS Flight sim. I picked up the wrong beacon (X60) and flew to the wrong airport. Oops! At least it was in flight sim not for real. And it taught me to cross check what I was seeing out the window with what my navigation was telling me.

John

 

[Palmpilot]

Rick Durden posted some worthwhile comments about this incident on Avsig, which seem to address the disdain that some pilots express for parachute-equipped aircraft:

Every month I read 100 accident report briefs as I do my portion of preparing the Used Aircraft Guide for Aviation Consumer. Almost invariably in that process I read from one to five accident sequences incredibly similar to this one in which the pilot crashed the airplane either out of fuel, out of control or wings level but well short of the airport. All involved usually die.

This ending was different. All survived. I think that's huge. I don't give a fig about how the pilot could have done better with his skills and judgment in the conditions - most of the time when things get down the slot that far the result is dead people. Here, for reasons I don't care about, the pilot decided that it was time to use a resource that a lot of dead pilots didn't have - and it saved him.

He may be embarrassed about the whole thing. So what? You've got to be alive to be embarrassed. All those others I read about every month aren't embarrassed.​

 

[Fearless Tower]

Rick Durden posted some worthwhile comments about this incident on Avsig, which seem to address the disdain that some pilots express for parachute-equipped aircraft:

Every month I read 100 accident report briefs as I do my portion of preparing the Used Aircraft Guide for Aviation Consumer. Almost invariably in that process I read from one to five accident sequences incredibly similar to this one in which the pilot crashed the airplane either out of fuel, out of control or wings level but well short of the airport. All involved usually die.

This ending was different. All survived. I think that's huge. I don't give a fig about how the pilot could have done better with his skills and judgment in the conditions - most of the time when things get down the slot that far the result is dead people. Here, for reasons I don't care about, the pilot decided that it was time to use a resource that a lot of dead pilots didn't have - and it saved him.

He may be embarrassed about the whole thing. So what? You've got to be alive to be embarrassed. All those others I read about every month aren't embarrassed.​

The problem is that in the big picture, it isn't about a 'disdain' for parachute equipped aircraft. Many Cirrus proponents seem to want to paint it that way. "Those Cirrus bashers just have airplane envy".

But I don't think that is the case here. I certainly have no problem with Cirrus or BRS. I think it is a fine airplane. I have never wanted to own one personally simply because it doesn't meet my mission requirements (space and useful load). Several others who have posted on this thread feel similarly.

Unfortunately, while many Cirrus proponents are busy painting the 'us vs them' argument, they are missing out on the reality that this accident was entirely avoidable and the fact that yet another pilot ran his airplane out of gas (BRS equipped or not) does not reflect well on the pilot community.

I don't think anyone is saying the guy should have let his airplane run out of gas and sucked it up and taken his chances dead sticking into the trees in IMC. We are simply wishing the dude had used some proper ADM and planned and operated his flight IAW FARs avoiding the situation in the first place.

To borrow from Frank Borman; "the superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill (or superior technology - added by me).

Let's all strive to be superior pilots.

 

[Everskyward]

The problem is that in the big picture, it isn't about a 'disdain' for parachute equipped aircraft. Many Cirrus proponents seem to want to paint it that way. "Those Cirrus bashers just have airplane envy".

But I don't think that is the case here. I certainly have no problem with Cirrus or BRS. I think it is a fine airplane. I have never wanted to own one personally simply because it doesn't meet my mission requirements (space and useful load). Several others who have posted on this thread feel similarly.

Unfortunately, while many Cirrus proponents are busy painting the 'us vs them' argument, they are missing out on the reality that this accident was entirely avoidable and the fact that yet another pilot ran his airplane out of gas (BRS equipped or not) does not reflect well on the pilot community.

I don't think anyone is saying the guy should have let his airplane run out of gas and sucked it up and taken his chances dead sticking into the trees in IMC. We are simply wishing the dude had used some proper ADM and planned and operated his flight IAW FARs avoiding the situation in the first place.

To borrow from Frank Borman; "the superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill (or superior technology - added by me).

Let's all strive to be superior pilots.

Your argument only makes sense if BRS-equipped airplanes are running out of fuel at a much higher rate than non BRS-equipped airplanes. Is this true?