Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
And a Chief is about as complicated as a push mower:
I'm willing to be the Chief has push mower parts in its engine.
I know my 170 does!
And a Chief is about as complicated as a push mower:
I'm willing to be the Chief has push mower parts in its engine.
I know my 170 does!
Really? I thought they were old tractor parts?
What if I intentionally tossed my checklist out the window?
At what point does a checklist become more of a hazard than a flow pattern?
A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. That's all I'm saying. Every flow, I've ever taken the time to learn, was "cleaned up" with a checklist.
I find that I miss more things if I try to check each item off of the checklist than if I just do the flow. Switching back and forth from checklist to control panel causes me to miss stuff.
I prefer to do the flow, and then run down the checklist to make sure I didn't miss anything.
A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. That's all I'm saying. Every flow, I've ever taken the time to learn, was "cleaned up" with a checklist.
I had an instructor during a checkout ramming the checklist down my throat on base.
Exactly. There is no natural sequence to look, look elsewhere, touch, select, look back at book, read, continue blah blah. Checklists are a bit like using a dictionary to speak another language vs flow of knowing the words instinctively and saying them.
That's all hunky dory as long as you don't have things like terrain or airliners to run into while reading a book. I had an instructor during a checkout ramming the checklist down my throat on base. Where I grew up flying, if you start reading a book on base, you're a dead person and the plane is mangled scrap metal - stick your head under the panel and you'll be eating trees within seconds.
What exactly needs to be checked via a checklist in a garden variety CE150 - naturally assuming one has at least 3 hours total logged time and 2 hours in the little toy airplane? As long as you don't pull the red knob out at low altitude, you'll be ok...and even then you can get away with it if there's an empty field of some kind within gliding distance.
Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for checklists. Things like an Apollo command module where all the 300 switches have to be set properly lest you crash into the planet or vaporize 150 miles in the sky on the return. It's kind of important though that's not a one person checklist either.
A CE150 or even a Cherokee 180 is not a bazillion switch spacecraft. If one can't learn a simple flow sequence reliably and must resort to a printed checklist for something that has as many switches and levers as a riding lawn mower, one should consider that one is in way over their head.
IMHO, the infinite safety fanatical routine has gotten a bit out of hand in the last decade to the point that the safety procedures are starting to cause problems of their own.
I just made the statement that a flow is not meant to replace a checklist.
A flow is to accomplish the mundane, repetitive stuff. A checklist is to make sure the killer items get done.
.... and yet is still not meant to replace a checklist.
You keep saying that. Did I imply that?
It appears that way, yes. Otherwise, you're just being argumentative.
You're right.
I'm not trying to split hairs, however, I was being obtuse on purpose. I'll admit it.
It's not really worth the time/effort expended at this point.
I've already stated my position on the matter. I can lose my job for not running a checklist. Every flow I run at work is followed with a checklist.
Who do you fly for?
its a check list, not a do list. run the flow, run the checklist to make sure you did not miss anything in the flow.
Who do you fly for?
Is there a requirement for Part 91 flying that the "check list" be printed on laminated stock?
How is that relevant?
He is bound by a rule, he follows that rule.
Everyplace has rules.
the regs in reality say it can't be laminated unless your POH was from the factory, because the only checklist required to be on board is the one supplied with the aircraft. which, in most GA airplanes is the POH. however, there is nothing stopping you from using your own as long as you have the required on on board.
A "well known" 121 carrier.
You can have the sim paused instantly during a PC for failure to use a checklist. It is not a debrief item. It's a pink slip, have a nice day item.
There have been those released from employment for failure to use a checklist with a check airman on the jumpseat. Granted, the check airman told him to use it and he did for a little bit and then stopped, displaying his obvious bad habit. He didn't pick up a checklist at all for the return flight and was axed.
I'd love to tell you name, rank and serial number, but due to some of the obvious attitudes of other pilots on this board, I'll retain my anonymity.
A "well known" 121 carrier.
You can have the sim paused instantly during a PC for failure to use a checklist. It is not a debrief item. It's a pink slip, have a nice day item.
There have been those released from employment for failure to use a checklist with a check airman on the jumpseat. Granted, the check airman told him to use it and he did for a little bit and then stopped, displaying his obvious bad habit. He didn't pick up a checklist at all for the return flight and was axed.
I'd love to tell you name, rank and serial number, but due to some of the obvious attitudes of other pilots on this board, I'll retain my anonymity.
There is a very large difference between airline and part 91 non-corporate flying. Use of checklists being one. An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.
Bob
Considering that we're talking about Part91, I don't see the applicablility. Sure, we can try and act like the big boys, but why?
There is a very large difference between airline and part 91 non-corporate flying. Use of checklists being one. An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.
I know the difference. 121, 91, 137, 135, pick a number. I've flown it.
I know part 91 pilots are required to do the same. I'm a Part 91 pilot of my own aircraft.
Like I said, they can do as they wish as long as they are not trying to kill me and others.
With that said, I should have never posted in this thread. It's all yours. I've let it waste far too much of my time.
I think you mean "Part 91 is much less regulated in the area of checklists and cockpit discipline"
An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.
snip
Dan's Chief is a good example - my dishwasher is more complex... by far.
I don't think I'd say that much or go that far. What you have added has been words of wisdom..... let those who care take your words and use them and don't worry about those who are set in their ways.
We can make the world safer as doing our parts as CFI's, but we can't change the world in a single day. Patience is a virtue and understanding is a traite.... neither of which is easily accepted nor understood by everyone. Don't get bothered by some folks on the internet not accepting your advice, but at the same time don't let them dictate your overal opinion about a website.
Bob
Did you use a checklist or flow when replacing your dishwasher?
Flow.
Sadly, a checklist wouldn't have helped. The issues I had with my dishwasher replacement were due to an initial poor product, followed by me not knowing how to solder copper very well. But we're several months in now without issues, hope it stays that way.
Sounds like you needed an A&P/IA - Appraisal & Plumbing/Installation Authorization
I was very close to calling a plumber to come do the copper pipe soldering, but the stubborn German in me (thank you, Grandmother) refused to give up. So I finally got it. Actually, Ed called up and talked me through it, and it worked out then. Thanks, Ed!
The stove was a whole other matter. Broken for a month while I was waiting for the warranty to work out, and then Sears came, ordered the part, and told me they couldn't get it fixed until another month or so. I said "Forget this, it's just a board."
Pull the back off, found the two relays on the old board were melted, and the connectors were also in bad shape. That's not good. Put the new board in, the relay got very hot, very quickly. I'm sure that the repair guy would've just swapped the board and let it go out again. Changed the connectors, works great. I'm saving the old board as a spare, a couple cents worth of relays will fix it. So much for "warranties." I get frustrated when to do something right I have to do it myself, including when fixing things I've never even looked at before.
Try replacing the timer on a Kenmmore stacked washer/dryer in a closet.... the one I had in San Antonio (new a year after I bought the house) failed every 2 years.
It was so bad I nearly had to break down and call the repair guy. Problem was, the parts were not available at the SA depot - they had to be ordered.
We replaced a bunch of stuff in our house preparing for sale, and oh! the jury-rigged stuff you find when tearing out the old!!!
It took me quite a bit to replace the dishwasher -- there are few level spots in a 200 year old house.