Checklist and Flow

dmccormack said:
What if I intentionally tossed my checklist out the window?
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I'd say you're ready to own an RV.

fgcason said:
At what point does a checklist become more of a hazard than a flow pattern?
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A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. That's all I'm saying. Every flow, I've ever taken the time to learn, was "cleaned up" with a checklist.
 
BellyUpFish said:
A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. That's all I'm saying. Every flow, I've ever taken the time to learn, was "cleaned up" with a checklist.
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I find that I miss more things if I try to check each item off of the checklist than if I just do the flow. Switching back and forth from checklist to control panel causes me to miss stuff. I prefer to do the flow, and then run down the checklist to make sure I didn't miss anything (clean up as you suggested).
 
COFlyBoy said:
I find that I miss more things if I try to check each item off of the checklist than if I just do the flow. Switching back and forth from checklist to control panel causes me to miss stuff.
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Exactly. There is no natural sequence to look, look elsewhere, touch, select, look back at book, read, continue blah blah. Checklists are a bit like using a dictionary to speak another language vs flow of knowing the words instinctively and saying them.

I prefer to do the flow, and then run down the checklist to make sure I didn't miss anything.
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That's all hunky dory as long as you don't have things like terrain or airliners to run into while reading a book. I had an instructor during a checkout ramming the checklist down my throat on base. Where I grew up flying, if you start reading a book on base, you're a dead person and the plane is mangled scrap metal - stick your head under the panel and you'll be eating trees within seconds.

A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. That's all I'm saying. Every flow, I've ever taken the time to learn, was "cleaned up" with a checklist.
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What exactly needs to be checked via a checklist in a garden variety CE150 - naturally assuming one has at least 3 hours total logged time and 2 hours in the little toy airplane? As long as you don't pull the red knob out at low altitude, you'll be ok...and even then you can get away with it if there's an empty field of some kind within gliding distance.

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for checklists. Things like an Apollo command module where all the 300 switches have to be set properly lest you crash into the planet or vaporize 150 miles in the sky on the return. It's kind of important though that's not a one person checklist either.

A CE150 or even a Cherokee 180 is not a bazillion switch spacecraft. If one can't learn a simple flow sequence reliably and must resort to a printed checklist for something that has as many switches and levers as a riding lawn mower, one should consider that one is in way over their head.

IMHO, the infinite safety fanatical routine has gotten a bit out of hand in the last decade to the point that the safety procedures are starting to cause problems of their own.
 
fgcason said:
I had an instructor during a checkout ramming the checklist down my throat on base.
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I would have throat-punched that instructor.

Who runs a checklist on base? Unless you are on an IFR Visual Approach and/or at a towered field making a really wide base, the landing checklist should be complete before you turn base.

When I start making turns and descending out of PA, I want to be focused outside with the possible exception of adding flaps and a short final GUMPS check. NOT messing with a checklist and flipping switches.
 
fgcason said:
Exactly. There is no natural sequence to look, look elsewhere, touch, select, look back at book, read, continue blah blah. Checklists are a bit like using a dictionary to speak another language vs flow of knowing the words instinctively and saying them.



That's all hunky dory as long as you don't have things like terrain or airliners to run into while reading a book. I had an instructor during a checkout ramming the checklist down my throat on base. Where I grew up flying, if you start reading a book on base, you're a dead person and the plane is mangled scrap metal - stick your head under the panel and you'll be eating trees within seconds.



What exactly needs to be checked via a checklist in a garden variety CE150 - naturally assuming one has at least 3 hours total logged time and 2 hours in the little toy airplane? As long as you don't pull the red knob out at low altitude, you'll be ok...and even then you can get away with it if there's an empty field of some kind within gliding distance.

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for checklists. Things like an Apollo command module where all the 300 switches have to be set properly lest you crash into the planet or vaporize 150 miles in the sky on the return. It's kind of important though that's not a one person checklist either.

A CE150 or even a Cherokee 180 is not a bazillion switch spacecraft. If one can't learn a simple flow sequence reliably and must resort to a printed checklist for something that has as many switches and levers as a riding lawn mower, one should consider that one is in way over their head.

IMHO, the infinite safety fanatical routine has gotten a bit out of hand in the last decade to the point that the safety procedures are starting to cause problems of their own.
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I'm not preaching the values of using checklists. I don't even recall promoting the use of checklists.

I just made the statement that a flow is not meant to replace a checklist.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
A flow is to accomplish the mundane, repetitive stuff. A checklist is to make sure the killer items get done.
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.... and yet is still not meant to replace a checklist.

You guys sure are getting bunched undies over a pretty benign statement.

"Proper" use of a flow involves a checklist as well.

Do the flow, clean it up with the checklist. I've missed items while performing a flow. These items were caught with the follow up usage of a checklist.

I'm not arguing checklists are mandatory. I don't use one in my RV. I don't use one in the Decathlon, Stearman or the MU. I use the religiously at work, because I can lose my job for not using them.

I guess all the ASEL-CFI-AGI's around this place are infallible.

Carry on, fellas. I'll crawl back in my hole.
 
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BellyUpFish said:
It appears that way, yes. Otherwise, you're just being argumentative.
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I didn't read it that way. It read as two separate thoughts.... as denoted by the period.

I don't think the guys are trying to pick you apart and say you are absolutely wrong. It seems or reads more like they are saying you can use a flow to speed up the process and use a checklist for the important things in life. You may be thinking about specific times to use a checklist to clean up a flow, but I think the guys are referring to the other times when a checklist is redundant and has no additional safety factor. Like a preflight walk around... or after landing checklist .... but other times may call for a different method of flow/checklist usage.

For example.... When I'm single pilot IFR, I won't grab the checklist and do a before landing checklist (in the soup all the way down). That can be more detrimental to the safety of the flight (look down, then switch from checklist to instruments to outside for visual references, ect....). If another pilot is with me, they get to do the before landing checklist when I tell them too.

Don't worry too much about what they are saying. Things were headed down the way of splitting hairs when there is no rule that dictates however checklist or flows should be performed.... That's the key to remember - no one is right and no one is wrong. The only important decisions or choices to make are those that effect the safety of the flight. That's when checklist or no checklist use is important.... Who determines when that is important -- each individual pilot. So it isn't really worth splitting hairs over something like this :)
 
You're right.

I'm not trying to split hairs, however, I was being obtuse on purpose. I'll admit it.

It's not really worth the time/effort expended at this point.

I've already stated my position on the matter. I can lose my job for not running a checklist. Every flow I run at work is followed with a checklist.
 
BellyUpFish said:
You're right.

I'm not trying to split hairs, however, I was being obtuse on purpose. I'll admit it.

It's not really worth the time/effort expended at this point.

I've already stated my position on the matter. I can lose my job for not running a checklist. Every flow I run at work is followed with a checklist.
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Who do you fly for?
 
its a check list, not a do list. run the flow, run the checklist to make sure you did not miss anything in the flow.
 
thomascannon said:
Who do you fly for?
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A "well known" 121 carrier.

You can have the sim paused instantly during a PC for failure to use a checklist. It is not a debrief item. It's a pink slip, have a nice day item.

There have been those released from employment for failure to use a checklist with a check airman on the jumpseat. Granted, the check airman told him to use it and he did for a little bit and then stopped, displaying his obvious bad habit. He didn't pick up a checklist at all for the return flight and was axed.

I'd love to tell you name, rank and serial number, but due to some of the obvious attitudes of other pilots on this board, I'll retain my anonymity.
 
dmccormack said:
Is there a requirement for Part 91 flying that the "check list" be printed on laminated stock?
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the regs in reality say it can't be laminated unless your POH was from the factory, because the only checklist required to be on board is the one supplied with the aircraft. which, in most GA airplanes is the POH. however, there is nothing stopping you from using your own as long as you have the required on on board.
 
Doggtyred said:
How is that relevant?

He is bound by a rule, he follows that rule.

Everyplace has rules.
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I, uh, was asking out of curiosity. Thanks though for letting me know that places have rules and stuff. Helpful. Thanks.
 
unsafervguy said:
the regs in reality say it can't be laminated unless your POH was from the factory, because the only checklist required to be on board is the one supplied with the aircraft. which, in most GA airplanes is the POH. however, there is nothing stopping you from using your own as long as you have the required on on board.
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I know -- I should have added a smiley.

My "POH" doesn't exist, and didn't in 1940.
 
BellyUpFish said:
A "well known" 121 carrier.

You can have the sim paused instantly during a PC for failure to use a checklist. It is not a debrief item. It's a pink slip, have a nice day item.

There have been those released from employment for failure to use a checklist with a check airman on the jumpseat. Granted, the check airman told him to use it and he did for a little bit and then stopped, displaying his obvious bad habit. He didn't pick up a checklist at all for the return flight and was axed.

I'd love to tell you name, rank and serial number, but due to some of the obvious attitudes of other pilots on this board, I'll retain my anonymity.
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Considering that we're talking about Part91, I don't see the applicablility. Sure, we can try and act like the big boys, but why?

With that said, I'd agree that checklist use can be a contributor to the safety record of Commercial Aviation, but so is a co-pilot, which in GA is seldom available.

What I do know is that checklist usage is part of the Private Pilot PTS.

On my checkride, I did both. I used a checklist during preflight and everything until I was ready to push the throttle forward on the takeoff roll. When we were entering the pattern, I used a flow and said aloud, "Pre-Landing Checklist Complete". That was sufficient.
 
BellyUpFish said:
A "well known" 121 carrier.

You can have the sim paused instantly during a PC for failure to use a checklist. It is not a debrief item. It's a pink slip, have a nice day item.

There have been those released from employment for failure to use a checklist with a check airman on the jumpseat. Granted, the check airman told him to use it and he did for a little bit and then stopped, displaying his obvious bad habit. He didn't pick up a checklist at all for the return flight and was axed.

I'd love to tell you name, rank and serial number, but due to some of the obvious attitudes of other pilots on this board, I'll retain my anonymity.
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There is a very large difference between airline and part 91 non-corporate flying. Use of checklists being one. An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.

Bob
 
bob_albertson said:
There is a very large difference between airline and part 91 non-corporate flying. Use of checklists being one. An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.

Bob
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I think you mean "Part 91 is much less regulated in the area of checklists and cockpit discipline"
 
Jaybird180 said:
Considering that we're talking about Part91, I don't see the applicablility. Sure, we can try and act like the big boys, but why?
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I came into this thread after searching for previous posts from the OP. He was having a temper-tantrum in another thread so I "researched" him. Read up on him. Trying to see if his attitude in the other thread is par for the course with him. It is. I came in here to razz him a bit. Trolling perhaps, sure. Some of my best memories in a fishing boat are behind a trolling motor. ;)

Anyway, I just typed out a reply and inadvertently closed the window.

The cliffs notes:

The "segment" you're operating under has nothing to do with the usage of checklists or flows. I've flown some pretty large aircraft under Part 91. I've flown "121 ferry flights" under Part 91.

It's more about what aircraft you are flying.

Does a C-150 need a checklist? Nope.
Does it even really need a flow? Nope.
Can people do them/use them in a C-150? Sure.

I made a simply statement, in response to the OP's solicitation for opinions. A flow is not a replacement for a checklist. The OP seemed to think it was. I voiced an opinion.

When I fly small aircraft part 91, I rarely use a checklist or a flow. Most of them are very simple aircraft.

When I fly larger aircraft under the 121 regulations and the CFM/FOM of my company, I fly them to the letter, as best I can.

Use a flow instead of a checklist, that's great.
Use a checklist instead of a flow, that's great.
Use nothing at all, that's great.

I don't really care what others do as long as they're not trying to kill others.

bob_albertson said:
There is a very large difference between airline and part 91 non-corporate flying. Use of checklists being one. An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.
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I know the difference. 121, 91, 137, 135, pick a number. I've flown it.

I know part 91 pilots are required to do the same. I'm a Part 91 pilot of my own aircraft.

Like I said, they can do as they wish as long as they are not trying to kill me and others.

With that said, I should have never posted in this thread. It's all yours. I've let it waste far too much of my time.
 
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BellyUpFish said:
I know the difference. 121, 91, 137, 135, pick a number. I've flown it.

I know part 91 pilots are required to do the same. I'm a Part 91 pilot of my own aircraft.

Like I said, they can do as they wish as long as they are not trying to kill me and others.

With that said, I should have never posted in this thread. It's all yours. I've let it waste far too much of my time.
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I don't think I'd say that much or go that far. What you have added has been words of wisdom..... let those who care take your words and use them and don't worry about those who are set in their ways.

We can make the world safer as doing our parts as CFI's, but we can't change the world in a single day. :) Patience is a virtue and understanding is a traite.... neither of which is easily accepted nor understood by everyone. Don't get bothered by some folks on the internet not accepting your advice, but at the same time don't let them dictate your overal opinion about a website.

Bob
 
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dmccormack said:
I think you mean "Part 91 is much less regulated in the area of checklists and cockpit discipline"
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No I really did mean part 91 corporate flying.... cause just regular ole part 91 flying is pretty much non-existent with checklist requirements :)
 
bob_albertson said:
An important lesson to remember is that part 91 is much less restrictive and caring about pilot proficiency and cockpit discipline. With that in mind we must keep in mind that no matter how much 121 flying we do there is no requirement for part 91 pilots to do the same. With that in mind we have to respect how they run their own cockpits.
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It also comes down to flying much different aircraft with much different systems. Sure, the Navajo (the biggest plane I fly) is a significantly more complex aircraft than the Cherokee (the smallest plane I fly - and try not to), but in reality they're all pretty simple. I didn't even know what an Autocoarsen was until talking to you, and I'm sure there are a thousand other systems on the SF34 that make it a complicated aircraft that you need a checklist for. But in the piston world, a good flow is frequently sufficient, especially if you fly the same airplanes all the time.

Dan's Chief is a good example - my dishwasher is more complex... by far.
 
bob_albertson said:
I don't think I'd say that much or go that far. What you have added has been words of wisdom..... let those who care take your words and use them and don't worry about those who are set in their ways.

We can make the world safer as doing our parts as CFI's, but we can't change the world in a single day. :) Patience is a virtue and understanding is a traite.... neither of which is easily accepted nor understood by everyone. Don't get bothered by some folks on the internet not accepting your advice, but at the same time don't let them dictate your overal opinion about a website.

Bob
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All sound advice. :)
 
ajstoner21 said:
Did you use a checklist or flow when replacing your dishwasher? :D
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Flow. ;)

Sadly, a checklist wouldn't have helped. The issues I had with my dishwasher replacement were due to an initial poor product, followed by me not knowing how to solder copper very well. But we're several months in now without issues, hope it stays that way.

My stove, on the other hand, I just had to replace a board on... *sigh*
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Flow. ;)

Sadly, a checklist wouldn't have helped. The issues I had with my dishwasher replacement were due to an initial poor product, followed by me not knowing how to solder copper very well. But we're several months in now without issues, hope it stays that way.
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Sounds like you needed an A&P/IA - Appraisal & Plumbing/Installation Authorization

:D
 
wsuffa said:
Sounds like you needed an A&P/IA - Appraisal & Plumbing/Installation Authorization

:D
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I was very close to calling a plumber to come do the copper pipe soldering, but the stubborn German in me (thank you, Grandmother) refused to give up. So I finally got it. Actually, Ed called up and talked me through it, and it worked out then. Thanks, Ed! :thumbsup:

The stove was a whole other matter. Broken for a month while I was waiting for the warranty to work out, and then Sears came, ordered the part, and told me they couldn't get it fixed until another month or so. I said "Forget this, it's just a board."

Pull the back off, found the two relays on the old board were melted, and the connectors were also in bad shape. That's not good. Put the new board in, the relay got very hot, very quickly. I'm sure that the repair guy would've just swapped the board and let it go out again. Changed the connectors, works great. I'm saving the old board as a spare, a couple cents worth of relays will fix it. So much for "warranties." I get frustrated when to do something right I have to do it myself, including when fixing things I've never even looked at before. :mad2:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I was very close to calling a plumber to come do the copper pipe soldering, but the stubborn German in me (thank you, Grandmother) refused to give up. So I finally got it. Actually, Ed called up and talked me through it, and it worked out then. Thanks, Ed! :thumbsup:

The stove was a whole other matter. Broken for a month while I was waiting for the warranty to work out, and then Sears came, ordered the part, and told me they couldn't get it fixed until another month or so. I said "Forget this, it's just a board."

Pull the back off, found the two relays on the old board were melted, and the connectors were also in bad shape. That's not good. Put the new board in, the relay got very hot, very quickly. I'm sure that the repair guy would've just swapped the board and let it go out again. Changed the connectors, works great. I'm saving the old board as a spare, a couple cents worth of relays will fix it. So much for "warranties." I get frustrated when to do something right I have to do it myself, including when fixing things I've never even looked at before. :mad2:
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Try replacing the timer on a Kenmmore stacked washer/dryer in a closet.... the one I had in San Antonio (new a year after I bought the house) failed every 2 years. :mad2::mad2::mad2:

It was so bad I nearly had to break down and call the repair guy. Problem was, the parts were not available at the SA depot - they had to be ordered. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
wsuffa said:
Try replacing the timer on a Kenmmore stacked washer/dryer in a closet.... the one I had in San Antonio (new a year after I bought the house) failed every 2 years. :mad2::mad2::mad2:

It was so bad I nearly had to break down and call the repair guy. Problem was, the parts were not available at the SA depot - they had to be ordered. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
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Very aggravating. The nice part is these new appliances look better, work better, and are more energy-efficient than the previous ones. However, I'd also had the previous ones for 5 years (and I think they were original with the house, which is around 18 years old) without issues. We'll see how they fare.

I've been very happy with my LG washer/dryer (which I bought refurbished also), but I'm wondering if the quality has gone down, or else if I got lucky before and the refurbish place screwed things up this time.
 
We replaced a bunch of stuff in our house preparing for sale, and oh! the jury-rigged stuff you find when tearing out the old!!!

:mad2:

It took me quite a bit to replace the dishwasher -- there are few level spots in a 200 year old house.
 
dmccormack said:
We replaced a bunch of stuff in our house preparing for sale, and oh! the jury-rigged stuff you find when tearing out the old!!!

:mad2:

It took me quite a bit to replace the dishwasher -- there are few level spots in a 200 year old house.
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We recently learned during our oven replacement that my old in-wall oven was sitting on top of a 2x4 attached to nothing to get it high enough, and the shelf above it wasn't attached to anything, it was just sitting on top of the oven.

A few years ago the ceiling started dripping in the first floor hallway. Found that someone had drilled a hole into the copper drainpipe that ran down from the upstairs bathroom and then "fixed" it with a blob of solder. It eventually popped out one day while my wife was taking a shower upstairs.

At least it was polite enough to not pop out of the pipe during a flush. ;)

Under the kitchen sink is the goofy mess of assorted adapters and fittings to connect a modern sink to threaded pipe that someone did. No shutoffs either. Guess how we found that out, as I ran to the basement to close the house shutoff? ;)
 
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