"Cheap" turbine?

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iMooniac
I was looking around the web the other day for an entry-level turbine (no, not going to have one anytime soon, but I'm always planning for the dream!) and found this:

https://www.flyperformance.com/aircraft/1979-piper-pa31t1-cheyenne-n939jb/

Yeah, a Cheyenne I isn't exactly a speed demon or a ramp model, but it's still a turbine and still faster than most pistons, and a good way to operate in the thin air in pressurized, vibration-free comfort, right?

Short list: $369K for a very nicely equipped (GTN 750, G600) Cheyenne I. Both engines 5820 SNEW, #1 is 205 since hot section, #2 is 552 SHSI.

What am I missing? Seems like a nice plane with good performance for a pretty good price.
 
I was looking around the web the other day for an entry-level turbine (no, not going to have one anytime soon, but I'm always planning for the dream!) and found this:

https://www.flyperformance.com/aircraft/1979-piper-pa31t1-cheyenne-n939jb/

Yeah, a Cheyenne I isn't exactly a speed demon or a ramp model, but it's still a turbine and still faster than most pistons, and a good way to operate in the thin air in pressurized, vibration-free comfort, right?

Short list: $369K for a very nicely equipped (GTN 750, G600) Cheyenne I. Both engines 5820 SNEW, #1 is 205 since hot section, #2 is 552 SHSI.

What am I missing? Seems like a nice plane with good performance for a pretty good price.
If those engines haven’t had an overhaul I wouldn’t be interested.
The Cheyenne is a good airplane overall. Definitely more bang for your buck than a king air.
 
Probably costs $1,000 per hour to run?

Well, I'd be interested in actual costs on a Cheyenne, but I think @Eggman talked about $600/hr for his Conquest. But that comes with the territory on a turbine.

Getting into a Conquest equipped like this would be another couple hundred thousand dollars, so that's why I'm curious if there's some caveat about the Cheyenne I besides it being a bit slower and smaller (still a lot bigger and faster than my Mooney...)

@Ted DuPuis didn't you fly a Cheyenne for a bit back in PA?
 
I flew a II about 30+ years ago but don't recall the operating expenses. Nice planes, a bit quicker than King Airs, smaller cabin.
 
If those engines haven’t had an overhaul I wouldn’t be interested.
The Cheyenne is a good airplane overall. Definitely more bang for your buck than a king air.

They're on the "M.O.R.E." program, which extends TBO to 8000. And I would be part 91 anyway. I am curious if there's a reasonable supply of used PT6A-11s though. It seems that there are plenty of C90s that get the Blackhawk upgrade and keep the supply of used -21s flowing in case you need one, but the -11 is a fairly rare variant from what I understand, only used on the Cheyenne I, and while Blackhawk does offer an upgrade for the Cheyenne I, I'm not sure there are enough of them out there to keep that used engine market going like it does with the King Airs.
 
They're on the "M.O.R.E." program, which extends TBO to 8000. And I would be part 91 anyway. I am curious if there's a reasonable supply of used PT6A-11s though. It seems that there are plenty of C90s that get the Blackhawk upgrade and keep the supply of used -21s flowing in case you need one, but the -11 is a fairly rare variant from what I understand, only used on the Cheyenne I, and while Blackhawk does offer an upgrade for the Cheyenne I, I'm not sure there are enough of them out there to keep that used engine market going like it does with the King Airs.
I wouldn’t buy it. Those engines will cost you in my opinion. My experience with pt6 engines is that Pratt has their component service lives pretty well figured out. Never been a fan of the MORE program. I would consider those engines to be timed out and in need of an overhaul. Since they are first run the power wheels are probably fine but I would expect 50/50 the ct wheel might need some love. Perhaps better since hot sections were not to long ago.
 
Not to hijack, but I've been curious about the costs/availability of the T-53-L701. I've had my peepers on the OV-1 for sale right now (thinking of purchasing one in the distant future if available), but can't find anything on hourly cost. Since I'd be purchasing a few years from now, I don't really want to reach out to owners/sellers just yet.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Well I almost went this route before I got my 185

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I was looking around the web the other day for an entry-level turbine (no, not going to have one anytime soon, but I'm always planning for the dream!) and found this:

https://www.flyperformance.com/aircraft/1979-piper-pa31t1-cheyenne-n939jb/

Yeah, a Cheyenne I isn't exactly a speed demon or a ramp model, but it's still a turbine and still faster than most pistons, and a good way to operate in the thin air in pressurized, vibration-free comfort, right?

Short list: $369K for a very nicely equipped (GTN 750, G600) Cheyenne I. Both engines 5820 SNEW, #1 is 205 since hot section, #2 is 552 SHSI.

What am I missing? Seems like a nice plane with good performance for a pretty good price.

The upfront cost is the cheap part. One inspection with hot section could equal half the purchase price pretty quickly.
 
Well, I'd be interested in actual costs on a Cheyenne, but I think @Eggman talked about $600/hr for his Conquest. But that comes with the territory on a turbine.

Getting into a Conquest equipped like this would be another couple hundred thousand dollars, so that's why I'm curious if there's some caveat about the Cheyenne I besides it being a bit slower and smaller (still a lot bigger and faster than my Mooney...)

@Ted DuPuis didn't you fly a Cheyenne for a bit back in PA?

My $600 is DOC including fuel, mx, and engine reserves. Total cost is higher.
 
Two words that don't go together in my vocabulary are cheap and turbine. I think you pay either way.
 
entry-level turbine
In general, as far as the "cheaper" side of things, look for an older 206 with a Soloy conversion. Or if pax/bagg is not an issue look for an older turbine ag plane. Any twin/pressurized aircraft will be cheap up front and very expensive after the sale. It's actually cheaper to get into a turbine helicopter than a turbine fixed wing. But it all boils down to how much you plan to fly over a period of time that needs to be determined first.
 
In general, as far as the "cheaper" side of things, look for an older 206 with a Soloy conversion. Or if pax/bagg is not an issue look for an older turbine ag plane. Any twin/pressurized aircraft will be cheap up front and very expensive after the sale. It's actually cheaper to get into a turbine helicopter than a turbine fixed wing. But it all boils down to how much you plan to fly over a period of time that needs to be determined first.
Why would you recommend a turbine ag plane??
If he wanted to smuggle dope or spray a field it would be useful but not so much for anything else.
 
At this point I've got probably about 70 hours in Cheyenne IIs. The difference between the I and the II is really just in the engines, and then the II also has the S.A.S. (AOA combined with a stick pusher). Personally I think the Cheyennes are a great entry level turboprop. Decent ones can be had in the low $300s (a friend of mine is currently selling his). Performance and economy isn't bad. PT-6s are easy and forgiving... almost impossible to hot start. Plus the plane is essentially a Navajo, which is a super easy to fly airplane. I don't worry about PT-6s past TBO. I don't see people having issues. Technically MORE is not required to go past TBO on Part 91, but MORE does eliminate the hot section requirement and turns that into some borescope inspections and then hot section on condition from what I understand. Since I operate Garrets I haven't investigated MORE a ton. I really enjoyed flying the Cheyenne... depending on the condition of the engines on the specific plane and altitude you can generally see something in the range of 240-250 KTAS on 360-500 PPH combined. Higher is better. We generally called it a $1k/hr aircraft for accounting purposes (i.e. what we charged) but on the whole I think it's less than that. The real problem with Cheyennes is they are effectively unsupported by Piper. Cheyenne Air in PA is the only shop in the country that can produce many of the parts. That's not a problem until it is, and one of my friends who has a Cheyenne has had pretty bad experiences with them. But another friend with a Cheyenne says they're great, so it probably depends on your relationship status with them and expectations.

King Airs... stay away. The calendar based requirements are killer unless you fly a lot. And you won't fly enough for the inspections to be logical.

Commanders can be options, @stratobee knows a lot more about those than I do. Real problem with a Commander is that you need a BIG hangar to fit one. A Cheyenne can fit into the same hangar as a Navajo. I also fit in the MU-2 into the same hangar as we had the 414 in. We also figured ~$1k/hr for the 690 that I flew.

@James_Dean can talk about Conquests, but I think their costs are more or less in line with Cheyennes. $800/hr is probably what I'd ballpark.

An earlier MU-2, specifically an F model like what Cloud Nine has, is going to be the cheapest. 235-260 KTAS on 52-60 GPH combined are my real world numbers, depending on temperature, altitude, and weight. We came home from NJ to KC non-stop on Sunday with a headwind that started out at around 30 kts and died down to about 5 by the end. Nearly 1,000 nm in 4:15. We burned 270 gallons to do that at FL200, which is not the most efficient altitude. In the high temps (ISA+20 or so) we started out at about 241 KTAS and by the end were truing out a hair over 260 KTAS on 60 GPH combined the whole way. If we'd operated at FL240 (ceiling is FL250 on that bird) we would've saved some fuel but the door seals are in bad shape so cabin altitude is a consideration. The later MU-2s with bigger engines (and especially the long bodies that are less efficient) will cost more but reported costs are still reasonable.

From every MU-2 owner I've talked to, all-in numbers are typically around $650/hr, which is in line with what you spend on a 414/421 but you go a lot faster doing it, so your $/mile is cheaper. Most people coming into the MU-2 world buy it as their first turboprop and many come in without any previous turbine experience. I had 100 hours of turbine time when we got it, plus my ~2400 hours of multi time (including 350 pressurized and 500 cabin class) so all the insurance required from me for dual was the training. In my opinion it is an honest airplane but it doesn't fly like a normal plane so it takes getting used to its various differences. I was comfortable doing my SFAR (now 91 Subpart N) training and then getting cut loose, but for someone coming in with less background the 50-100 hours of mentor time that is recommended by the community I think is reasonable. I've got 70 hours in the plane and I am comfortable with it, but I'll admit that the non-precision GPS approach to mins I did in NJ on Sunday was a workout.

Commanders and MU-2s have the best support out of the above. Cessna's support on legacy twins in my experience is poor at best, and while Piper has more of a "meh" attitude, their support isn't great.

Count me as a fan of the MU-2, but I also don't think it's for everyone.
 
Why would you recommend a turbine ag plane??
Several reasons. First, he said cheap. Second, turbine time is turbine time. And as I mentioned, if pax/bagg were not important then he wouldn't need the seats. But that wouldn't prevent him from altering the hopper to take seats, storage and/or extra fuel like some have done. I think with a seat/storage in the hopper area, big tires, and a belly tank it would make a neat bush plane. It probably would be a pig in the air but.....
 
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Several reasons. First, he said cheap. Second, turbine time is turbine time. And as I mentioned, if pax/bagg were not important then he wouldn't need the seats. But that wouldn't prevent him from altering the hopper to take seats, storage and/or extra fuel like some have done. I think with a seat/storage in the hopper area, big tires, and a belly tank it would make a neat bush plane. It probably would be a pig in the air but.....
I dunno.... all the costs of a turbine with none of the benefits. But to each their own
 
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I dunno.... all the costs of a turbine with none of the benefits. But to each their own

Unless you're going up high, a turbine is really not fun.

I burn ~110 GPH on takeoff combined and 52-60 at cruise. Guess which altitude I spend less time in.

Flying a 23 nm ferry flight burned 25 gallons.

Up high is the place to be.
 
Basically, if you want "cheap" turbines (and no, there is no such thing, of course), you want to run Garrett engines. Not only do they have 20% less fuel burn than PT6's, they have 5400hr TBO vs 3600hr TBO for the PT6's. Yes, the hot sections cost a bit more and can't be done on the wing, but the total cost of it will be less.
 
Basically, if you want "cheap" turbines (and no, there is no such thing, of course), you want to run Garrett engines. Not only do they have 20% less fuel burn than PT6's, they have 5400hr TBO vs 3600hr TBO for the PT6's. Yes, the hot sections cost a bit more and can't be done on the wing, but the total cost of it will be less.

This is true, especially the fuel burn bit. Having flown both I like the TPEs better, although the line guys don't.
 
I dunno.... all the costs of a turbine with none of the benefits. But to each their own
I guess the pertinent question would have been to ask why he was looking for a "cheap" turbine. If it was a quality of life reason then a path suggested by you and Ted. If to build turbine time then another path which I was thinking. I've known a pilot or two who bought/built single seat experimental turbine-powered helicopters (which could only fly and do nothing else) simply to build turbine time.
 
I can't get my mind around "Cheap Turbine"
 
what's the mission profile for this daydream again?
 
I can't get my mind around "Cheap Turbine"
It's a more expensive version of "cheap twin"! :D Cheap to buy, expensive to keep! :rolleyes: We looked at a 400 LS years ago, before we bought the 441, I really didn't like the wing spar between the cabin and cockpit, it made climbing in a bit of a chore. I really like my Conquest for what how and where we fly, but it's like a boat, there is always something bigger or faster that you keep your eye on! :cool:
 
I can't get my mind around "Cheap Turbine"

I know what he is saying, entry price is cheap as it the initial buy. But once you figure fuel burn and maintenance to keep it running, it quickly becomes not cheap to own one. But it is very cool.
 
@Ted DuPuis, I'm not gonna quote you here because I have nothing to add - That was an excellent post, full of great information, as I knew it would be. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Thanks!


Yabut, that one doesn't have the glass panel...

The upfront cost is the cheap part. One inspection with hot section could equal half the purchase price pretty quickly.

But a hot section on a more expensive plane still costs the same... This one seems to be very reasonable given the times and equipment.

My $600 is DOC including fuel, mx, and engine reserves. Total cost is higher.

Yep, that's what I understood from you. Thanks! :)

In general, as far as the "cheaper" side of things, look for an older 206 with a Soloy conversion. Or if pax/bagg is not an issue look for an older turbine ag plane. Any twin/pressurized aircraft will be cheap up front and very expensive after the sale. It's actually cheaper to get into a turbine helicopter than a turbine fixed wing. But it all boils down to how much you plan to fly over a period of time that needs to be determined first.

This would be a traveling business airplane, not a time builder. The pax will not do a single.

Several reasons. First, he said cheap. Second, turbine time is turbine time. And as I mentioned, if pax/bagg were not important then he wouldn't need the seats.

Again, NOT a time builder. And I'm not buying it (well, not with my money anyway - I'd buy it with someone else's money! :D) It just seems that this plane is a relative bargain in the world of pressurized traveling turbines.
 

Glad that you found my post useful. :)

To add to that, though, there's this thought that hot sections are a fixed cost. That's true if you replace everything, but in most cases it's called a hot section INSPECTION for a reason.

When I talked to shops I got numbers anywhere from $38k to $100k. That's a wide margin, and it depended on the condition of the old parts, how the engines were run, cycles on the parts, etc. etc. PT-6s might have less variation on this point than TPEs, not sure as I haven't looked into it.

One thing to note is that HSIs are not optional on Part 91, unless you do the MORE program which replaces the HSI with routine inspections. Overhauls, however, are optional 91.

Going back to the Cheyenne... some people are afraid of the SAS on the Cheyenne IIs because there are reports of it being hard to find parts for. I haven't observed that to be the case in the real world. The II has better specs than the I.

Depending on how the plane will be used, I wouldn't ignore the MU-2 as an option. However the MU-2 is not as nice for people in the back as a Cheyenne.[/user]
 
To add to that, though, there's this thought that hot sections are a fixed cost. That's true if you replace everything, but in most cases it's called a hot section INSPECTION for a reason.

Understood, my point was more that the price of a hot section isn't going to change depending on what kind of airplane it's hung on, or how much money was paid to purchase that airplane. At the price of that particular Cheyenne, one might have enough $$ left over to pay for the hot section, compared to something else similarly equipped.

Depending on how the plane will be used, I wouldn't ignore the MU-2 as an option. However the MU-2 is not as nice for people in the back as a Cheyenne.[/user]

It seems this particular back-seat rider is really more interested in jets than turboprops... I had lunch with him today and he thought maybe a used Mustang might suit him better, even if it costs 3x as much to buy. Looking at the direct operating costs at the link provided previously, it looks like the cost per mile there actually favors the jet.
 
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