Changing VFR Altitude While Getting Radar Services

[eetrojan]

I have a dumb new pilot question re best practices for changing VFR altitudes when making a course change while on flight following.

Yesterday I flew from French Valley (F70) to John Wayne (SNA) via Oceanside.

• F70 to Oceanside is a course of 169 degrees magnetic – so above 3000 AGL, the appropriate VFR altitudes are odd thousands plus 500.
  
• Oceanside toward SNA, along the cost, is a course of 303 degrees magnetic – so VFR altitudes are even thousands plus 500.

I was on flight following at 5,500 and, as I approached Oceanside, I called approach and confirmed that the restricted area R2503 D is cold. He confirmed it was inactive and said they are moving planes through there no problem at 4,500.

As I turned a little right toward Oceanside, and continued on, I began to descend from 5,500 to 4,500 for the new course and, ultimately, for the 303 course. The controller came on and seemed a little miffed.

I though the descent was expected, if not mandatory, based on the magnetic course of our next leg and his reference to 4,500, but I guess not.

What is best practice for working with approach when turning on a course that dictates a different VFR altitude?

Should I always request an altitude change and make sure they’re good with it before beginning?

Is it OK to stay at an odd-plus-500 altitude while already on an even-plus-500 course while waiting to get a word in?

A minor issue I suppose, but seems like a little catch-22.

Thanks!

 

[midlifeflyer]

There's no requirement to "ask" for an altitude change except for those very rare instances where ATC might instruct you to maintain a certain altitude or range of altitudes (usually limited to inside Class B or C but can happen in other places as well.

At times, ATC will ask you to "advise before any change of altitude," in which case you do so because you have been instructed to do so.

You'll get differing opinions on whether to advise ATC any time you are going to change altitudes. Mine is simple: If I am asking ATC to help me spot potentially conflicting traffic, the least I can do is let them know what I'm doing before I do it. So inform ATC of altitude changes.

Your change of course and altitude scenario? Well, ATC already has some idea where you are going since you've already asked for Flight Following to the destination. So a simple "Approach [or Center], Skyhawk 1234X is descending to 4500"" is enough. There should be no reason for difficulty getting that in - you don't wait for the last second, do you?

 

[docmirror]

The controller felt like you owed him a call about your change in altitude prior to descending.

You don't owe him a call, but it's considered good form to advise of change. You don't "request" an altitude change when on FF, just a call; 'Spamcan 1234 out of 5500 for 4500, new heading 303' or something like that.

It is not ok to stay on the wrong altitude for heading, you did it right.

 

[GeorgeC]

I'd like to know the answer to this question.

Sometimes, ATC has gotten cranky when I let them know I intended to change altitude ("altitude your discretion..."). Other times, ATC has gotten cranky when I changed altitude without first letting them know.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'd like to know the answer to this question.

Sometimes, ATC has gotten cranky when I let them know I intended to change altitude ("altitude your discretion..."). Other times, ATC has gotten cranky when I changed altitude without first letting them know.

You can't satisfy everyone every time. Some people are just cranky. I perfer, "Why are you bothering my nap with your call" to "Why didn't you call in this busy airspace where you just climbed into the path of a jet"

 

[Jim Logajan]

Sometimes, ATC has gotten cranky when I let them know I intended to change altitude ("altitude your discretion..."). Other times, ATC has gotten cranky when I changed altitude without first letting them know.

Maybe it's the coffee they're drinking?

 

[N801BH]

There's no requirement to "ask" for an altitude change except for those very rare instances where ATC might instruct you to maintain a certain altitude or range of altitudes (usually limited to inside Class B or C but can happen in other places as well.

At times, ATC will ask you to "advise before any change of altitude," in which case you do so because you have been instructed to do so.

You'll get differing opinions on whether to advise ATC any time you are going to change altitudes. Mine is simple: If I am asking ATC to help me spot potentially conflicting traffic, the least I can do is let them know what I'm doing before I do it. So inform ATC of altitude changes.

Your change of course and altitude scenario? Well, ATC already has some idea where you are going since you've already asked for Flight Following to the destination. So a simple "Approach [or Center], Skyhawk 1234X is descending to 4500"" is enough. There should be no reason for difficulty getting that in - you don't wait for the last second, do you?

.....

 

[eetrojan]

So a simple "Approach [or Center], Skyhawk 1234X is descending to 4500"" is enough. There should be no reason for difficulty getting that in - you don't wait for the last second, do you?

Thanks! Not sure I know how to answer that. I thought about proactively announcing (or requesting) the descent, but I chose not to do it because he was pretty busy and he had just mentioned 4500 after suggesting an early turn to Oceanside and my ability to fly through the restricted area.

 

[Bonchie]

I advised on flight following an altitude change one time and got a sarcastic reply to maintain VFR.

 

[roncachamp]

I have a dumb new pilot question re best practices for changing VFR altitudes when making a course change while on flight following.

Yesterday I flew from French Valley (F70) to John Wayne (SNA) via Oceanside.

• F70 to Oceanside is a course of 169 degrees magnetic – so above 3000 AGL, the appropriate VFR altitudes are odd thousands plus 500.
  
• Oceanside toward SNA, along the cost, is a course of 303 degrees magnetic – so VFR altitudes are even thousands plus 500.

I make F70 to Oceanside VORTAC to be 203° and OCN to KSNA to be 304°. Is there another Oceanside? If not, how did you come up with 169°?

I was on flight following at 5,500 and, as I approached Oceanside, I called approach and confirmed that the restricted area R2503 D is cold. He confirmed it was inactive and said they are moving planes through there no problem at 4,500.

As I turned a little right toward Oceanside, and continued on, I began to descend from 5,500 to 4,500 for the new course and, ultimately, for the 303 course. The controller came on and seemed a little miffed.

I though the descent was expected, if not mandatory, based on the magnetic course of our next leg and his reference to 4,500, but I guess not.

You are expected to comply with FAR 91.159. However, it does not appear to me that an altitude change was required to comply with that regulation.

What is best practice for working with approach when turning on a course that dictates a different VFR altitude?

There's no harm in advising ATC of your plans but there is no requirement to do so.

Should I always request an altitude change and make sure they’re good with it before beginning?

If you're receiving only flight following, just radar traffic advisories and possibly safety alerts in airspace where ATC has no responsibility for separation of VFR traffic, then no. There's no reason to request it as it can't be denied. There's no reason they wouldn't be good with it as they have no responsibility for separation.

Is it OK to stay at an odd-plus-500 altitude while already on an even-plus-500 course while waiting to get a word in?

No, you must comply with FAR 91.159.

 

[docmirror]

I make F70 to Oceanside VORTAC to be 203° and OCN to KSNA to be 304°. Is there another Oceanside? If not, how did you come up with 169°?


No, you must comply with FAR 91.159.

KOKB, airport not VOR. Looks like 195 heading sans wind corr.

 

[roncachamp]

KOKB, airport not VOR

Okay, I make F70 to Oceanside Municipal Airport to be 195° and KOKB to KSNA to be 304°. Still no need to change altitude to comply with FAR 91.159.

Looks like 195 heading sans wind corr.

Looks like a 195° course, which is what determines the proper altitude.

 

[iflyvfr]

I was flying to the Indy AOPA flyin recently on a Westerly heading climbing to 4,500' out of Columbus. As I approached Dayton, the controller asked if I would like vectors around at my altitude or would I rather climb to 5500 to go over the top?

I responded "77R leaving 4,500 climbing 5,500". Once clear to the West, he asked if I wanted to descend and I replied I was happy up there for a bit" (due to the tailwind) and he did not object. As I neared the point where I needed to be at 3000', I began to descend and once I reported the location in site, FF was cancelled and I was set free.

I've had Dayton tell me "VFR your discretion" when I advise I'm descending, and I've had the same controllers tell me "advise any altitude changes". Given the variations, I would rather err on the side of slightly too much info than not enough.

 

[docmirror]

Okay, I make F70 to Oceanside Municipal Airport to be 195° and KOKB to KSNA to be 304°. Still no need to change altitude to comply with FAR 91.159.



Looks like a 195° course, which is what determines the proper altitude.

I"m not disagreeing with you. You asked if there was another Oceanside. Maybe he was futzing about to the west of F70, I don't know.

 

[eetrojan]

I make F70 to Oceanside VORTAC to be 203° and OCN to KSNA to be 304°. Is there another Oceanside? If not, how did you come up with 169°?

Sorry for the confusion. I'm referring to Oceanside the town not the VOR. At any rate, F70 to the OCN VORTAC would have me flying through a restricted area.

In more detail, and specifically to avoid the restricted areas R-2503 B and C over Camp Pendleton that are frequently active and extend up to 15,000 and FL 270, I flew 169 from F70 to a golf course at the base of a pass, and then to a VFR checkpoint of my own, i.e. abeam the X of a river and the 15.

At about that point, I turned 217 toward Oceanside (actually eye-balling the lagoon), and when at the coast over Oceanside harbor, I turned further right to be flying roughly 303 to fly along the coast, something like this:

Rough Route in SkyVector

 

[Timmer]

I was flying back from Chino to MYF a couple of weeks ago under Flight Following and as I got to OCN VORTAC I was switched to another frequency. During my call up I said "5,500 descending 3,500" as I wanted to fly lower along the beach. I was told: "Negative, maintain 5,500."

I asked as a past CRQ but wasn't given a descent until around Del Mar when I was asked to go 2,500.

The reason being that there were a ton of planes, some talking to SoCal, some not, off the shore of CRQ all around 2,500-3,500. I am very glad I was on Flight Following as they kept me out of a congested area of VFR traffic. If I wanted to descend anyway, I could have but of course they would have dropped me.

In my very limited experience, it seems it's a smart idea to report altitude change intentions since you have requested their help and they may not want you at a different altitude, especially in busier airspace. I can imagine in less-dense areas, however, they probably don't care.

 

[flyingron]

Note that just because you are getting flight following from ATC doesn't mean they are authorizing you to fly at a random altitude not consistent with 91.159.

As stated, it never hurts to the tell them. Some controllers acknowledge it, some just say "VFR Altitude Your Discretion." Greensboro (NC) Approach is big on the advise before altitude changes. My usual route of flight takes me through their approach / departure corridor even though I'm outside the class C proper.

 

[poadeleted20]

Unless you're in B-space on an assigned altitude or the controller said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change", there is no requirement to call. Of course, some days a controller will get itchy if you do not call when not required, and others when they get itchy if you do call when not required. Just one of those things you have to learn to live with.

 

[roncachamp]

Unless you're in B-space on an assigned altitude or the controller said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change", there is no requirement to call. Of course, some days a controller will get itchy if you do not call when not required, and others when they get itchy if you do call when not required. Just one of those things you have to learn to live with.

Outside of airspace where ATC can assign altitudes to VFR aircraft, which is not limited to Class B airspace, there is no requirement to call even if the controller has said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change".

 

[spcalan1]

I had a experience close to this post 2 days ago...

My 2nd longest xc.. 3.2 hours... roundtrip...

I always get flight following and always stay with the 0-180, 181-359 altitude for VFR flight.

I always start my flight following request with current altitude, and what my cruise altitude will be ( climbing through 3500 for 7500.. example ).

Each time I had to climb, or defend. I always let Atlanta center know what i am doing.. for transparency... all times... " Maintain VFR altitude at pilot's discretion "..

Also, this was the first time I flew close to a TRSA.. Macon TRSA..
I planned my route to skirt the TRSA, as I got closer, approach said.. "Resume own navigation".. I do not know what that means...

So as I get closer, I ask if I am cleared through the TRSA ( just to make sure )... again. I get " Resume own navigation ".. Not knowing what this fully means, I turn west to stay out.. then the controller says " You do not need clearance to enter a TRSA.. and yes you are cleared to XXXX...

I just wanted clarification from the controller.. and I got a vague answer...

Thoughts ?

 

[MikeELP]

I had a experience close to this post 2 days ago...

My 2nd longest xc.. 3.2 hours... roundtrip...

I always get flight following and always stay with the 0-180, 181-359 altitude for VFR flight.

I always start my flight following request with current altitude, and what my cruise altitude will be ( climbing through 3500 for 7500.. example ).

Each time I had to climb, or defend. I always let Atlanta center know what i am doing.. for transparency... all times... " Maintain VFR altitude at pilot's discretion "..

Also, this was the first time I flew close to a TRSA.. Macon TRSA..
I planned my route to skirt the TRSA, as I got closer, approach said.. "Resume own navigation".. I do not know what that means...

So as I get closer, I ask if I am cleared through the TRSA ( just to make sure )... again. I get " Resume own navigation ".. Not knowing what this fully means, I turn west to stay out.. then the controller says " You do not need clearance to enter a TRSA.. and yes you are cleared to XXXX...

I just wanted clarification from the controller.. and I got a vague answer...

Thoughts ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSL1yWOhHoQ




Mike

 

[Velocity173]

I had a experience close to this post 2 days ago...

My 2nd longest xc.. 3.2 hours... roundtrip...

I always get flight following and always stay with the 0-180, 181-359 altitude for VFR flight.

I always start my flight following request with current altitude, and what my cruise altitude will be ( climbing through 3500 for 7500.. example ).

Each time I had to climb, or defend. I always let Atlanta center know what i am doing.. for transparency... all times... " Maintain VFR altitude at pilot's discretion "..

Also, this was the first time I flew close to a TRSA.. Macon TRSA..
I planned my route to skirt the TRSA, as I got closer, approach said.. "Resume own navigation".. I do not know what that means...

So as I get closer, I ask if I am cleared through the TRSA ( just to make sure )... again. I get " Resume own navigation ".. Not knowing what this fully means, I turn west to stay out.. then the controller says " You do not need clearance to enter a TRSA.. and yes you are cleared to XXXX...

I just wanted clarification from the controller.. and I got a vague answer...

Thoughts ?

There is no clearance through the TRSA. His "resume own navigation" is just that; proceed directly to your next fix / destination.

 

[roncachamp]

Also, this was the first time I flew close to a TRSA.. Macon TRSA..
I planned my route to skirt the TRSA, as I got closer, approach said.. "Resume own navigation".. I do not know what that means...

So as I get closer, I ask if I am cleared through the TRSA ( just to make sure )... again. I get " Resume own navigation ".. Not knowing what this fully means, I turn west to stay out.. then the controller says " You do not need clearance to enter a TRSA.. and yes you are cleared to XXXX...

"Resume own navigation" means you are to resume navigational responsibility. It's used after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored. It doesn't really apply in the situation you describe.

You do not need ATC permission to operate in the Class E airspace of a TRSA. Nor do you need to be in radar contact or establish radio communications to enter a TRSA. It's just an area where some specific services are available. See AIM paragraph 3−5−6. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA).

 

[murphey]

You can't satisfy everyone every time. Some people are just cranky. I perfer, "Why are you bothering my nap with your call" to "Why didn't you call in this busy airspace where you just climbed into the path of a jet"

For those of us dealing with nearby Class B as well as 4 military bases that fly stuff, FF is a lifesaver, and ATC appreciates the notice of altitude change. Helps them keep track of everything out here.

 

[docmirror]

For those of us dealing with nearby Class B as well as 4 military bases that fly stuff, FF is a lifesaver, and ATC appreciates the notice of altitude change. Helps them keep track of everything out here.

Glad you like it. Not too long from now it'll be regulatory.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I advised on flight following an altitude change one time and got a sarcastic reply to maintain VFR.

I do it all the time when using VFR Flight Following. For more than 20 years now. Have never received a sarcastic reply.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I had a experience close to this post 2 days ago...

My 2nd longest xc.. 3.2 hours... roundtrip...

I always get flight following and always stay with the 0-180, 181-359 altitude for VFR flight.

I always start my flight following request with current altitude, and what my cruise altitude will be ( climbing through 3500 for 7500.. example ).

Each time I had to climb, or defend. I always let Atlanta center know what i am doing.. for transparency... all times... " Maintain VFR altitude at pilot's discretion "..

Also, this was the first time I flew close to a TRSA.. Macon TRSA..
I planned my route to skirt the TRSA, as I got closer, approach said.. "Resume own navigation".. I do not know what that means...

So as I get closer, I ask if I am cleared through the TRSA ( just to make sure )... again. I get " Resume own navigation ".. Not knowing what this fully means, I turn west to stay out.. then the controller says " You do not need clearance to enter a TRSA.. and yes you are cleared to XXXX...

I just wanted clarification from the controller.. and I got a vague answer...

Thoughts ?

In terms if normal alphabet airspace, the only one that requires a clearance is Class B. C and D only require the establishment if 2-way communications and a TRSA only requires that if you want to participate.

"Resume own navigation" just means, "we're not telling you where to go and how to get there." Check the AIM and Pilot/Controller Glosssary.

 

[eetrojan]

Note that just because you are getting flight following from ATC doesn't mean they are authorizing you to fly at a random altitude not consistent with 91.159.

Thanks. Wasn't completely clear to me before, but is now. Appreciate it!

OK. I lied and I have confused myself again.

I just looked at 91.159 and notice that it says a VFR pilot should maintain the prescribed VFR altitudes "unless authorized by ATC."

When and how would ATC clearly authorize me to fly at a non-standard VFR altitude?

Is an announcement of my intent to climb to altitude of 5500, followed by ATC saying "radar contact, proceed as requested," authorization to fly at that altitude?

If so, assuming ATC knew of my intended flight path up the coast, do I still have authorization to remain at that altitude when I turn on a magnetic course that makes it a non-159 altitude?

 

[eetrojan]

Unless you're in B-space on an assigned altitude or the controller said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change", there is no requirement to call. Of course, some days a controller will get itchy if you do not call when not required, and others when they get itchy if you do call when not required. Just one of those things you have to learn to live with.

Thank you. I have a better handle on it now.

 

[GeorgeC]

I'll bite. What other airspaces?

Outside of airspace where ATC can assign altitudes to VFR aircraft, which is not limited to Class B airspace, there is no requirement to call even if the controller has said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change".

 

[FastEddieB]

When I find myself talking to ATC VFR (which is all I can fly now under Light Sport limitations), I will generally let them know when vacating one altitude for another.

Whether required or even desired is a moot point - it just seems polite to let them know what I'm doing.

But That's Just Me! (tm)

 

[Velocity173]

I'll bite. What other airspaces?

TRSA & Class C. Also surface based controlled airspace for SVFR.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'll bite. What other airspaces?

I don't understand the bite. ATC can give a binding instruction in any "controlled airspace." You know, A, B, C, D and E. I'd go with Special Use also when you are let in and ATC is the controlling authority.

My "bite" would be on the rest of the post where he says you don't have to call even if your are instructed to, since you're not likely to be instructed by ATC outside of controlled airspace. But that could just be his way of phrasing things.

 

[roncachamp]

I'll bite. What other airspaces?

Class C airspace, including the Outer Area, and TRSAs.

 

[flyingron]

"Resume own navigation" just means, "we're not telling you where to go and how to get there." Check the AIM and Pilot/Controller Glosssary.

Right, and when VFR since you're not on a cleared route it just means you're left to your own devices. On IFR, it means you're resonsible for finding your own way on your cleared route (not as one hapless pilot found out, go direct to your destination).

 

[poadeleted20]

Outside of airspace where ATC can assign altitudes to VFR aircraft, which is not limited to Class B airspace, there is no requirement to call even if the controller has said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change".

Steven has for years maintained that pilots operating VFR in controlled airspace are generally not required to obey ATC instructions (things like Class B airspace excepted). The Chief Counsel has said otherwise.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
If the instructor said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change" to you while you are in controlled airspace of any class, outside of an emergency situation, you are required to obey that instruction.

 

[poadeleted20]

You do not need ATC permission to operate in the Class E airspace of a TRSA. Nor do you need to be in radar contact or establish radio communications to enter a TRSA. It's just an area where some specific services are available. See AIM paragraph 3−5−6. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA).

Technically correct, but ATC can punish you for not doing so. For example, if you fly VFR into Harrisburg PA and don't contact Harrisburg Approach before entering the TRSA, but instead make your first call to Tower just outside the D-space, you'll find yourself sequenced behind the last airplane already talking to Harrisburg Approach -- like maybe #12 behind someone 20 miles behind you. So, they can't make you do it, but they can make you wish you had.

 

[roncachamp]

Steven has for years maintained that pilots operating VFR in controlled airspace are generally not required to obey ATC instructions (things like Class B airspace excepted).

Steven has said nothing like that.

The Chief Counsel has said otherwise.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
If the instructor said "maintain X altitude" or "advise prior to any altitude change" to you while you are in controlled airspace of any class, outside of an emergency situation, you are required to obey that instruction.

Ron assumes the Chief Counsel included controller instructions that are contrary to Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control. That assumption is illogical.

 

[Jmcmanna]

The point of flight following is generally to aid in avoiding conflicts with other aircraft, right? If you're operating at a certain altitude, I appreciate an advisory before changing altitude because I may have a plan to work around that altitude with bigger/faster traffic. I never understand when pilots call for advisories, then ignore me when I issue traffic calls, suggested headings away from other traffic, etc...(happens all the time). I am more perplexed when I assign an at-or-below altitude for traffic, then the pilot climbs through it and causes a 737 to have an RA.

 

[eetrojan]

Google is not my friend this morning. What's an RA? Thanks.