Changing VFR Altitude While Getting Radar Services

[roncachamp]

Correct but I do as a courtesy.

That's fine, just pointing out that it's not required. Pilots often just leave the frequency and change beacon codes without saying a word.

 

[B350ATP]

I don't understand the question.



I'm not sure I have received them but I've definitely witnessed them, and corrected the controller when I was able to.



I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion.



The question was about controllers operating in violation of the ATC order. Do you feel those controllers unprofessional?

You stated that

You wrote; "I could care less about the argument claiming 'but I am VFR', if you decided to have a guy at an ATC facility, on the other side of the microphone, provide flight following, then you need to work with him and not against him." You also wrote, "My points reflect a professional approach/relationship when working with ATC." Controllers who assign headings to VFR aircraft operating outside of TRSAs, outside of Class C airspace (including the Outer Area), or outside of Class B airspace are operating in violation of the ATC order. Do you feel those controllers are taking a professional approach?

Are you saying that the above are the only airspace where vectors are possible and if vectors are issued outside of above airspaces, it is in violation of the ATC order ?

 

[roncachamp]

Are you saying that the above are the only airspace where vectors are possible and if vectors are issued it is in violation of the ATC order ?

No, the above are the only airspace where ATC can initiate vectoring of VFR aircraft. Outside of them ATC can offer vectors for various purposes; traffic, weather, navigational shortcut, avoiding SUA, locating an airport or landmark, etc. Outside of the above airspace areas, according to the book, ATC cannot assign a heading, altitude, altitude restriction, or route to a VFR aircraft. Yes, I know, controllers do it regularly.

 

[B350ATP]

No, the above are the only airspace where ATC can initiate vectoring of VFR aircraft. Outside of them ATC can offer vectors for various purposes; traffic, weather, navigational shortcut, avoiding SUA, locating an airport or landmark, etc. Outside of the above airspace areas, according to the book, ATC cannot assign a heading, altitude, altitude restriction, or route to a VFR aircraft. Yes, I know, controllers do it regularly.

Ok roger that

 

[redtail]

Why do you feel that's not considered an ATC instruction? Sounds like one to me.

Sounds like one to me too, that's why I put a question mark after my original post. So help me understand the Chief counsel's statement. Thanks.


"Second, you pose that if the pilot elects to turn to avoid the Class B airspace, did the pilot violate § 91. 123(a)(b) and/or 91.111(a). If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from ATC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction from ATC. Therefore, any maneuvering by the pilot is not a violation of § 91.123. However in maneuvering the aircraft, the pilot must comply with § 91.111(a) and not operate the aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard."

I've been up all night working and I'm very tired, so what am I missing?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ok roger that

Does anyone have a reference to the paragraph of the Handbook where the prohibition appears? I tried looking, even searching for "VFR" appearing within 30 words of "heading", "altitude" or "assign" and couldn't find it.

 

[Velocity173]

Does anyone have a reference to the paragraph of the Handbook where the prohibition appears? I tried looking, even searching for "VFR" appearing within 30 words of "heading", "altitude" or "assign" and couldn't find it.

Prohibition of what? Assigning headings and altitudes in class E?

 

[poadeleted20]

Sure, I agree with that but the OP was wondering if they could terminate on their own out of the blue. I didn't see anything in his original question about terminating to avoid complying with an instruction already issued.

I thought the question had to do with avoiding the Chief Counsel's dictum regarding adherence to ATC instructions by removing yourself from the situation. Obviously, if there's no ATC instruction pending, there's nothing in that regard to stop you from saying goodbye any more than when you cancel IFR.

 

[B350ATP]

Does anyone have a reference to the paragraph of the Handbook where the prohibition appears? I tried looking, even searching for "VFR" appearing within 30 words of "heading", "altitude" or "assign" and couldn't find it.

See link regarding vectoring aircraft

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0506.html

Section 6. Vectoring

5-6-1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:



a. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests. Allow aircraft operating on an RNAV route to remain on their own navigation to the extent possible.
b. In Class G airspace only upon pilot request and as an additional service.
c. At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR altitude except as authorized for radar approaches, special VFR, VFR operations, or by para 5-6-3, Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.
NOTE-
VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot to comply with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-5-6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-5-2, Priority.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-5-4, Altitude Assignment.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-7-5, Altitude Assignments.
14 CFR Section 91.119, Minimum Safe Altitudes: General. [/SIZE]
d. In airspace for which you have control jurisdiction, unless otherwise coordinated.
e. So as to permit it to resume its own navigation within radar coverage.
f. Operating special VFR only within Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface areas.
g. Operating VFR at those locations where a special program is established, or when a pilot requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-4-1, Route Use.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-2-1, Visual Separation.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-5-3, Separation.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-6-1, Application.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 9-4-4, Separation Minima.
FAAO JO 7210.3, Chapter 11, Section 1, Terminal VFR Radar Services.[/SIZE]

Controlled Airspace defined (same handbook)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air1401.html

[SIZE=+2]Part 4. Terminal and En Route Airspace[/SIZE] ​

Chapter 14. Designation of Airspace Classes

Section 1. General

14-1-1. PURPOSE ​

In addition to the policy guidelines and procedures detailed in Part 1. of this order, this part prescribes specific policies and procedures for managing terminal and en route airspace cases.

14-1-2. DEFINITIONS ​

a. CONTROLLED AIRSPACE. An airspace of defined dimensions within which ATC service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.
1. Controlled airspace is a generic term that covers Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace areas.
2. Controlled airspace is also that airspace within which all aircraft operators are subject to certain pilot qualifications, operating rules, and equipment requirements in 14 CFR part 91 (for specific operating requirements, please refer to 14 CFR part 91). For IFR operations in any class of controlled airspace, a pilot must file an IFR flight plan and receive an appropriate ATC clearance. Each Class B, Class C, and Class D airspace area designated for an airport contains at least one primary airport around which the airspace is designated (for specific designations and descriptions of the airspace classes, please refer to 14 CFR part 71).
3. Controlled airspace in the United States is designated as follows:
(a) CLASS A AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, that airspace from 18,000 feet MSL up to and including FL 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles (NM) of the coast of the 48 contiguous States and Alaska. Unless otherwise authorized, all persons must operate their aircraft under IFR.
(b) CLASS B AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) surrounding the nation's busiest airports in terms of airport operations or passenger enplanements. The configuration of each Class B airspace area is individually tailored and consists of a surface area and two or more layers, and is designed to contain all published instrument procedures. An ATC clearance is required for all aircraft to operate in the area, and all aircraft that are so cleared receive separation services within the airspace. The cloud clearance requirement for VFR operations is “clear of clouds."
(c) CLASS C AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Although the configuration of each Class C area is individually tailored, the airspace usually consists of a surface area with a 5 NM radius, an outer circle with a 10 NM radius that extends from no lower than 1,200 feet up to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering the airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within the airspace.
(d) CLASS D AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower. The configuration of each Class D airspace area is individually tailored and when instrument procedures are published, the airspace will normally be designed to contain the procedures. Arrival extensions for instrument approach procedures may be Class D or Class E airspace. Unless otherwise authorized, each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering the airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while in the airspace. No separation services are provided to VFR aircraft.
(e) CLASS E AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, if the airspace is not Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D, and it is controlled airspace, it is Class E airspace. The types of Class E airspace areas are:
(1)  Surface Area Designated for an Airport - When designated as a surface area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all instrument procedures.
(2) Extension to a Surface Area - There are Class E airspace areas that serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E surface areas designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.
(3) Airspace Used for Transition - There are Class E airspace areas beginning at either 700 or 1,200 feet AGL used to transition to/from the terminal or en route environment.
(4) En Route Domestic Areas - There are Class E airspace areas that extend upward from a specified altitude and are en route domestic airspace areas that provide controlled airspace in those areas where there is a requirement to provide IFR en route ATC services but the Federal airway system is inadequate.
(5) Federal Airways - The Federal airways are Class E airspace areas and, unless otherwise specified, extend upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL. The colored airways are green, red, amber, and blue. The VOR airways are classified as Domestic, Alaskan, and Hawaiian.
(6) Unless designated at a lower altitude, Class E airspace begins at 14,500 feet MSL to, but not including 18,000 feet MSL overlying: the 48 contiguous States including the waters within 12 miles from the coast of the 48 contiguous States; the District of Columbia; Alaska, including the waters within 12 miles from the coast of Alaska, and that airspace above FL 600; excluding the Alaska peninsula west of long. 160°00'00"W., and the airspace below 1,500 feet above the surface of the earth unless specifically so designated.
(7) Offshore/Control Airspace Areas. Airspace areas beyond 12 NM from the coast of the United States, wherein ATC services are provided.
b. UNCONTROLLED AIRSPACE.
1. CLASS G AIRSPACE AREA. Airspace that has not been designated as Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace.

14-1-3. GOVERNING CRITERIA ​

Controlled airspace in terminal areas must be designated, modified, or discontinued in accordance with the policy, procedures, and criteria contained herein.

14-1-4. FRACTIONAL MILES ​

Unless otherwise stated, all distances are nautical miles. When figuring the size of surface areas and Class E airspace or their extensions, any fractional part of a mile must be converted to the next higher 0.1 mile increment.
EXAMPLE-
3.62 miles would be considered to be 3.7 miles.

14-1-5. AIRSPACE LEGAL DESCRIPTION ​

a. A text header must be used and include the following information:
1. On line one:
(a) FAA routing symbol of the region.
(b) Two letter abbreviation of the state.
(c) Type of airspace.
2. On line two: Enter the name of the airport and, if different, preceded by the name of the city.
3. If applicable, on line three: Enter the geographic coordinates for the reference used to describe the airspace, that is, geographic position, airport reference point, NAVAID, etc.
4. If applicable, on subsequent lines: Enter any NAVAID or airport, including geographic coordinates, used in the legal description.
b. State vertical limits in the first sentence of the text.
c. Do not restate geographic coordinates used in the text header in the legal description text.
d. If applicable, the way to distinguish between the classes is to separate the description of basic radius from the extension description by using a semi-colon.
NOTE-
Do not include a vertical limit for any extension(s) that will become Class E airspace. See examples of airspace legal descriptions below.

AIM

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0505.html

5-5-6. Radar Vectors
a. Pilot.
1. Promptly complies with headings and altitudes assigned to you by the controller.
2. Questions any assigned heading or altitude believed to be incorrect.
3. If operating VFR and compliance with any radar vector or altitude would cause a violation of any CFR, advises ATC and obtains a revised clearance or instructions.
b. Controller.
1. Vectors aircraft in Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace:
(a) For separation.
(b) For noise abatement.
(c) To obtain an operational advantage for the pilot or controller.
2. Vectors aircraft in Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, Class E, and Class G airspace when requested by the pilot.
3. Vectors IFR aircraft at or above minimum vectoring altitudes.
4. May vector VFR aircraft, not at an ATC assigned altitude, at any altitude. In these cases, terrain separation is the pilot's responsibility.

Controllers who assign headings to VFR aircraft operating outside of TRSAs, outside of Class C airspace (including the Outer Area), or outside of Class B airspace are operating in violation of the ATC order.

follow up with wording "initiate" and "offer" included. "According to Book" in bold by author

No, the above are the only airspace where ATC can initiate vectoring of VFR aircraft. Outside of them ATC can offer vectors for various purposes; traffic, weather, navigational shortcut, avoiding SUA, locating an airport or landmark, etc. Outside of the above airspace areas, according to the book, ATC cannot assign a heading, altitude, altitude restriction, or route to a VFR aircraft. Yes, I know, controllers do it regularly.

In the splitting hairs category, initiate or offer - I see no mention of such terms in "the handbook" (again, in bold by author) in reference to vectors.

With that said, vectors are available, which is all I care about when I dial up the ATC freq for the area I am in. It is because I desire vectors.

Similar to me wanting a Big Mac, and I drive up to McDonalds. Whether I ask for a Big Mac, or the register girl "offers" a Big Mac, it is trivial. Big Macs are sold there.

Everybody have a wonderful day

and Steven P McNicoll owes me a Big Mac for making me cut and paste all that stuff but he needs to stop being grumpy and cheer up

 

[poadeleted20]

Does anyone have a reference to the paragraph of the Handbook where the prohibition appears? I tried looking, even searching for "VFR" appearing within 30 words of "heading", "altitude" or "assign" and couldn't find it.

I've done the same. There is no such prohibition. There are statements that tell controllers to assign headings and altitudes in various situations, and there is nothing ordering them to do that for VFR aircraft outside Class B and a couple of other situations, but none prohibiting them from doing it when they feel it is required for safety. In fact, up in the front of FAA Order 7110.65, it says, "Controllers are required to be familiar with the provisions of this order that pertain to their operational responsibilities and to exercise their best judgment if they encounter situations not covered by it." So, if a situation arises where the controller feels that safety requires them to give an instruction to a VFR aircraft with whom they have communication in a situation not specifically addressed in that Order, they have the authority to do that, and by the letter cited above, the FAA Chief Counsel will back their play.

 

[midlifeflyer]

See link regarding vectoring aircraft

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0506.html



Controlled Airspace defined (same handbook)

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/AIR/air1401.html

Oh I've read all that.

I'm looking for the discussed reference supposedly prohibiting controllers from assigning headings or altitudes to VFR aircraft operating in controlled airspace but outside of TRSAs, Class C, or Class B airspace, "according to the book."

There doesn't appear to be one. In fact the part of the order you quote that ATC may vector aircraft when it's operationally advantageous for ATC seems to suggest the exact opposite.

 

[B350ATP]

Oh I've read all that.

I'm looking for the discussed reference supposedly prohibiting controllers from assigning headings or altitudes to VFR aircraft operating in controlled airspace but outside of TRSAs, Class C, or Class B airspace, "according to the book."

There doesn't appear to be one. In fact the part of the order you quote that ATC may vector aircraft when it's operationally advantageous for ATC seems to suggest the exact opposite.

no prohibition. I admit being wrong if I am shown where it says that.

see my post above

 

[roncachamp]

Oh I've read all that.

I'm looking for the discussed reference supposedly prohibiting controllers from assigning headings or altitudes to VFR aircraft operating in controlled airspace but outside of TRSAs, Class C, or Class B airspace, "according to the book."

There doesn't appear to be one. In fact the part of the order you quote that ATC may vector aircraft when it's operationally advantageous for ATC seems to suggest the exact opposite.

Correct, no form of the word "prohibit" is used in conjunction with the vectoring of aircraft outside of the areas mentioned.

 

[roncachamp]

I've done the same. There is no such prohibition. There are statements that tell controllers to assign headings and altitudes in various situations, and there is nothing ordering them to do that for VFR aircraft outside Class B and a couple of other situations, but none prohibiting them from doing it when they feel it is required for safety. In fact, up in the front of FAA Order 7110.65, it says, "Controllers are required to be familiar with the provisions of this order that pertain to their operational responsibilities and to exercise their best judgment if they encounter situations not covered by it." So, if a situation arises where the controller feels that safety requires them to give an instruction to a VFR aircraft with whom they have communication in a situation not specifically addressed in that Order, they have the authority to do that, and by the letter cited above, the FAA Chief Counsel will back their play.

Really? The book doesn't cover that situation? I'm amazed. I would have thought that was covered under safety alert, and that the book said headings and altitudes were to be issued as advisories, and that once the alert was issued it was solely the pilot’s prerogative to determine what course of action, if any, was to be taken. I must have imagined it.

 

[roncachamp]

Controlled Airspace defined (same handbook)

No, different book, that's from Order JO 7400.2 Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters.

and Steven P McNicoll owes me a Big Mac for making me cut and paste all that stuff but he needs to stop being grumpy and cheer up

Steven P McNicoll didn't make you do anything, doesn't owe you anything, and is not grumpy.

 

[B350ATP]

No, different book, that's from Order JO 7400.2 Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters.



Steven P McNicoll didn't make you do anything, doesn't owe you anything, and is not grumpy.

Sorry, the definition remains.

AIM

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0302.html

3-2-1. General
a. Controlled Airspace. A generic term that covers the different classification of airspace (Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace) and defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification. (See FIG 3-2-1.)

Glad you are not grumpy. Every day above ground is better than any day below it.

 

[Velocity173]

When it comes to FF, the .65 Ch 2 is very much hands off when it comes to controller responsibilities. It should be advisory or on pilot request.

If you're getting assigned a vector by ATC outside of B & C while VFR then it should only be for sequencing to the primary airport.

If you get assigned an altitude VFR while outside of B & C, then it should only be for SVFR.

 

[poadeleted20]

When it comes to FF, the .65 Ch 2 is very much hands off when it comes to controller responsibilities. It should be advisory or on pilot request.

If you're getting assigned a vector by ATC outside of B & C while VFR then it should only be for sequencing to the primary airport.

If you get assigned an altitude VFR while outside of B & C, then it should only be for SVFR.

Whether that is true or not, that is an issue only between the controller and the facility manager -- it's not an issue for pilots (other than perhaps to complain about it later). The Chief Counsel interpretation does not allow the pilot receiving the instruction to consider whether or not the instruction was "valid" or "authorized" or anything else like that. The only reason a pilot is allowed to disobey an ATC instruction is safety -- either an emergency, or violation of other safety-based regulation (like busting B-space without authorization, thus compromising the positive separation provided in B-space, which is a safety issue).

 

[roncachamp]

Whether that is true or not, that is an issue only between the controller and the facility manager -- it's not an issue for pilots (other than perhaps to complain about it later). The Chief Counsel interpretation does not allow the pilot receiving the instruction to consider whether or not the instruction was "valid" or "authorized" or anything else like that. The only reason a pilot is allowed to disobey an ATC instruction is safety -- either an emergency, or violation of other safety-based regulation (like busting B-space without authorization, thus compromising the positive separation provided in B-space, which is a safety issue).

Isn't it your position that the issuance of the vector is for safety? So what's a pilot to do when issued a vector for safety that will take him into Class B airspace?

 

[Velocity173]

Whether that is true or not, that is an issue only between the controller and the facility manager -- it's not an issue for pilots (other than perhaps to complain about it later). The Chief Counsel interpretation does not allow the pilot receiving the instruction to consider whether or not the instruction was "valid" or "authorized" or anything else like that. The only reason a pilot is allowed to disobey an ATC instruction is safety -- either an emergency, or violation of other safety-based regulation (like busting B-space without authorization, thus compromising the positive separation provided in B-space, which is a safety issue).

Well I agree the Karas letter doesn't distinguish but I don't think they really researched the .65 when it comes to controller responsibilities either. I think the letter is hinting at what I described and that is receiving FF into the primary airport. The controller has every right to vector for sequencing or if the pilot requests a practice approach. Ch2 & Ch7 make it quite clear that for just basic enroute FF a vector is advisory or on request and it leaves it up to the pilot to comply. Since there's no separation criteria, an altitude assignment (non SVFR) would be completely unnecessary.

Controllers don't have a blanket "I can tell you to do anything" authorization. Example is the class D controller a couple years ago out in Phoenix who vectored a female pilot back to the airport and forced her to land simply because he didn't like what he saw. Every controller friend of mine said that unless it's some sort of national security threat, the controller has no authority to tell a pilot what to do with their aircraft...especially since she wasn't even in a B or C.

This isn't about a CC letter. This is about some controllers not knowing the limits of their authority. Enroute, receiving FF in class E, they should be providing the services listed in the .65.

 

[N801BH]

Isn't it your position that the issuance of the vector is for safety? So what's a pilot to do when issued a vector for safety that will take him into Class B airspace?

 

[B350ATP]

Thread sure got quiet after post #129, which outlines vectoring in controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests.

Controlled Airspace defined as a generic term that covers the different classification of airspace (Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace) and defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.

 

[roncachamp]

Thread sure got quiet after post #129, which outlines vectoring in controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests.

Controlled Airspace defined as a generic term that covers the different classification of airspace (Class A, Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E airspace) and defined dimensions within which air traffic control service is provided to IFR flights and to VFR flights in accordance with the airspace classification.

Do you feel there was something in post #129 that caused the thread to become quiet?

 

[Marauder]

Do you feel there was something in post #129 that caused the thread to become quiet?

I personally thought the reason for the quietness was because you guys were off measuring your appendages.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[roncachamp]

I personally thought the reason for the quietness was because you guys were off measuring your appendages.

Not me, I prefer to rely on documentation.

 

[docmirror]

Whether that is true or not, that is an issue only between the controller and the facility manager -- it's not an issue for pilots (other than perhaps to complain about it later).

Why, that is just mighty generous of you - ya know, speaking for all VFR pilots out there who don't really care for being pushed around the airspace with no regard for regs. Yes, a big fat 'thank you' is in order cuz you are the arbiter of good pilotage. And not playing the game, and not knuckling under is simply veddy, veddy - bad form I say. Those ****-ant pilots should just do as ATC says, and damn the regs!

 

[redtail]

When it comes to FF, the .65 Ch 2 is very much hands off when it comes to controller responsibilities. It should be advisory or on pilot request.

If you're getting assigned a vector by ATC outside of B & C while VFR then it should only be for sequencing to the primary airport.

If you get assigned an altitude VFR while outside of B & C, then it should only be for SVFR.

So when he vectored me around those two jets landing at TEB, what should I have done? I wasn't in Bravo but was within the mode-C veil. I had just departed from CDW (Caldwell).

It wasn't that much of an inconvenience really. Just a couple of westbound headings and then I was allowed to proceed on my merry way. If I remember correctly, he even offered me a Bravo clearance although I hadn't requested it. I was prepared to fly back to FRG underneath Bravo.

In fact, now that I think about it, I've never had a bad experience with ATC while receiving FF. That's probably why I never hesitate to request it, even when I'm just playing around in the practice area (which is very close to KISP Class-C)

 

[Palmpilot]

... In fact the part of the order you quote that ATC may vector aircraft when it's operationally advantageous for ATC seems to suggest the exact opposite.

Good catch!

Section 6. Vectoring

5-6-1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:

a. In controlled airspace for separation, safety, noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence maneuver, or when a pilot requests. Allow aircraft operating on an RNAV route to remain on their own navigation to the extent possible.​

[emphasis added]

And I notice it says "or" when a pilot requests, not "only" when a pilot requests!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Good catch!

Occupational hazard.

 

[Palmpilot]

I noticed that the Doremire letter says that a vector for traffic is not an instruction, but the Karas letter says that ATC instructions include headings, and the Pilot/Controller Glossary says that a vector is a heading. Interpretation letters from the Chief Counsel's office would be a lot more useful if they didn't contradict themselves, but hey, nobody's perfect.

I think we all need to keep in mind that our first priority should always be to live long enough to attend the hearing.

Doremire:

If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from ATC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction.​

Karas:

ATC instructions include headings, turns, altitude instructions and general directions. The Pilot/Controller Glossary of the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) defines ATC instructions as "[ d]irectives issued by air traffic control for the purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific actions; e.g., 'Tum left heading two five zero,' 'Go around,' 'Clear the runway. '"​

Pilot/Controller Glossary:

VECTOR− A heading issued to an aircraft to provide
navigational guidance by radar.​

 

[Jmcmanna]

FWIW, I just received a briefing from FAA management with regard to VFR aircraft in controlled airspace. The briefing made a point that a controller has a duty to prevent collisions between aircraft. The briefing included assigning headings and altitudes to VFR and IFR aircraft to prevent conflicts with other aircraft, parachute activity, and weather.

So I will continue assigning headings and altitudes to VFR aircraft in class E airspace because my career can't take a mid-air collision because I didn't give control instructions (it can withstand a complaint from a pilot who called for flight following but didn't feel the obligation to follow a vector or altitude assignment, though).

 

[Velocity173]

So when he vectored me around those two jets landing at TEB, what should I have done? I wasn't in Bravo but was within the mode-C veil. I had just departed from CDW (Caldwell).

It wasn't that much of an inconvenience really. Just a couple of westbound headings and then I was allowed to proceed on my merry way. If I remember correctly, he even offered me a Bravo clearance although I hadn't requested it. I was prepared to fly back to FRG underneath Bravo.

In fact, now that I think about it, I've never had a bad experience with ATC while receiving FF. That's probably why I never hesitate to request it, even when I'm just playing around in the practice area (which is very close to KISP Class-C)

Vectors happen in airspace that doesn't require seperation all the time. If you have no problem with it then continue to keep using FF. I've recieved some serious vectors out of my way once with ATL approach. After the last vector I cancelled and went on my own. The controller was vectoring me around arrivals to ATL that weren't even close to me. There are vectors to prevent an accident, then there are vectors that are completely unessesary. Lets face it, not all controllers can disgunguish between the two. What looks close on radar doesn't always mirror what's out our windows.

Getting excessive vectors and altitude restrictions isn't exactly a major problem in the NAS. Here's the thing though, there are differing opinions just on this website alone when it comes to ATC's authority in class E. Some want the hands off approach while others wonder why ATC didn't step in when they had a close call with traffic. How many times have we heard on POA something like "ATC was calling this traffic that was 12 o'clock and opposite direction and they didn't vector me around it!" That's because they're complying with the order and allowing the PIC to decide if a vector is necessary. If it comes to safety alert, ATC will advise of a heading IAW Ch2 of the .65. It's still left up to the PIC to take that heading. If it comes down to a safety alert, I'm taking the heading.

Call me crazy but I personally like how the .65 is written to allow the PIC the decision making when it comes to accepting a vector for traffic during FF.

 

[roncachamp]

So when he vectored me around those two jets landing at TEB, what should I have done?

Whatever you felt was in your own best interest.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well I agree the Karas letter doesn't distinguish but I don't think they really researched the .65 when it comes to controller responsibilities either. I think the letter is hinting at what I described and that is receiving FF into the primary airport. The controller has every right to vector for sequencing or if the pilot requests a practice approach. Ch2 & Ch7 make it quite clear that for just basic enroute FF a vector is advisory or on request and it leaves it up to the pilot to comply. Since there's no separation criteria, an altitude assignment (non SVFR) would be completely unnecessary.

Controllers don't have a blanket "I can tell you to do anything" authorization. Example is the class D controller a couple years ago out in Phoenix who vectored a female pilot back to the airport and forced her to land simply because he didn't like what he saw. Every controller friend of mine said that unless it's some sort of national security threat, the controller has no authority to tell a pilot what to do with their aircraft...especially since she wasn't even in a B or C.

This isn't about a CC letter. This is about some controllers not knowing the limits of their authority. Enroute, receiving FF in class E, they should be providing the services listed in the .65.

Good points all, but unless safety is compromised by following the instruction, the time for a pilot to debate this is after obeying the instruction, landing, and picking up the telephone.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why, that is just mighty generous of you - ya know, speaking for all VFR pilots out there who don't really care for being pushed around the airspace with no regard for regs. Yes, a big fat 'thank you' is in order cuz you are the arbiter of good pilotage. And not playing the game, and not knuckling under is simply veddy, veddy - bad form I say. Those ****-ant pilots should just do as ATC says, and damn the regs!

Henry David Thoreau felt much the same, but he accepted the fact that he would be punished for his disobedience. Are you willing to risk that yourself, or only to suggest others take that chance?

I'm not here to teach controllers how to do their jobs, just to educate pilots, and the rule for pilots has been well-explained in this thread. If you're a pilot, either obey or be prepared to face the consequences of your disobedience.

 

[poadeleted20]

So when he vectored me around those two jets landing at TEB, what should I have done? I wasn't in Bravo but was within the mode-C veil. I had just departed from CDW (Caldwell).

You don't need a clearance to operate in the Mode C veil, but you are in controlled airspace there (unless you're very low). In that case, you do what the controller says unless it will either cause a collision hazard (or other emergency) or take you into the actual B-space without a clearance.

 

[N801BH]

Henry David Thoreau felt much the same, but he accepted the fact that he would be punished for his disobedience. Are you willing to risk that yourself, or only to suggest others take that chance?

I'm not here to teach controllers how to do their jobs, just to educate pilots, and the rule for pilots has been well-explained in this thread. If you're a pilot, either obey or be prepared to face the consequences of your disobedience.

I think you missed the point of the direction of this thread.....

It appears the "RULES" are a moving target in favor of ATC.....

Also... You never answered the question about the guy in Miami who was vectored into the Bravo and didn't hear those magic words.......

 

[poadeleted20]

I think you missed the point of the direction of this thread.....

It appears the "RULES" are a moving target in favor of ATC.....

That may be your opinion, but I see it otherwise, specifically, that these rules are here to enhance safety.

Also... You never answered the question about the guy in Miami who was vectored into the Bravo and didn't hear those magic words.......

What question? There is no link to the one to which you refer. In any event, the question of a vector into B-space without a B-space clearance was answered by the Chief Counsel in the Doremire letter linked above. That said, when I get a vector like that into B-space without the clearance, I just read it back "Left 270, understand cleared into Bravo". That has always had the appropriate and necessary effect.

 

[N801BH]

That may be your opinion, but I see it otherwise, specifically, that these rules are here to enhance safety.
What question? There is no link to the one to which you refer. In any event, the question of a vector into B-space without a B-space clearance was answered by the Chief Counsel in the Doremire letter linked above. That said, when I get a vector like that into B-space without the clearance, I just read it back "Left 270, understand cleared into Bravo". That has always had the appropriate and necessary effect.

So..............

What you are saying is , not only is a pilot needing to carry a FAR book to follow proper FAA rules....... They need to carry and read instantly ANY and ALL finding by the Chief Counsel and act accordinglyl.......

You are kiddin.. Right..

 

[poadeleted20]

So..............

What you are saying is , not only is a pilot needing to carry a FAR book to follow proper FAA rules....... They need to carry and read instantly ANY and ALL finding by the Chief Counsel and act accordinglyl.......

No, I'm not saying that. And I didn't say that, either. What I said was the rules require that when in controlled airspace, you obey controllers' instructions unless that will compromise safety. I don't think that's a very complicated concept, nor one which requires a pilot to carry and refer to a bunch of books in flight. If a pilot can't figure that out in flight without referring to a book, that pilot shouldn't be operating in the US National Airspace System.