CFL vs Incandescent

[Bob Noel]

Imagine that, something made in China is crap. I'm shocked!

 

[mantakos]

... With 'recycling', you mean 'ship it back to china where a 7 year old with a blowtorch in a backyard will melt it down for its copper content'...

And that's what happens when you recycle a CFL?
-harry

 

[mantakos]

Wouldn't you know it. Another day, another CFL to replace.

How come I've replaced 1 CFL in 3 years and you're replacing them on a daily basis?
-harry

 

[weilke]

And that's what happens when you recycle a CFL?

It is what happens to an awful lot of the 'e-waste' we produce these days. A couple of folks along the way fake some certifications so that all the do-gooders that collect the stuff here feel better about it. The trash itself then either goes into a landfill somewhere in the third world, is dumped overboard on the high seas or it goes to a backyard in China, Vietnam or Pakistan where it is recycled using the 'thermal' method. If it contains chips that still have some commercial value, they are taken off and re-sold to the US military, the rest just gets piled up.

 

[weilke]

How come I've replaced 1 CFL in 3 years and you're replacing them on a daily basis?
-harry

Dunno. Maybe you didn't start using them in 1986 and yours are all still young.

 

[skidoo]

Wouldn't you know it. Another day, another CFL to replace.

This one in the utility room which is more of a closet in this home (only contains the air-handler, not much more). If it has seen a 100hrs of use in its life it's a lot.

This one was marketed by GE but 'fabrique en chine'. The base is coked up similar to the one in the picture.

You waited for another one to go bad? When I tried them, after the first one started Smoking, I removed and inspected all the installed ones. They all looked like the one in your photo or worse. No fixture got a CFL installed again!

I don't care how much mr. mantakos want to force these up my A**, it just won't happen. No CFL's for me! I'll go back to oil burning lamps before I use these.

 

[Henning]

CFLs are stupid when LEDs are available as direct replacements for nearly every bulb now.

 

[mikea]

Wouldn't you know it. Another day, another CFL to replace.

This one in the utility room which is more of a closet in this home (only contains the air-handler, not much more). If it has seen a 100hrs of use in its life it's a lot.

This one was marketed by GE but 'fabrique en chine'. The base is coked up similar to the one in the picture.

Don't buy GE CFLs.

 

[mikea]

CFLs are stupid when LEDs are available as direct replacements for nearly every bulb now.

Not when you're paying the bill and CFLS are $2-$6 while LEDs are $20-$100.

I will be looking into getting some LEDs if they can dim like incandescents.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

You waited for another one to go bad? When I tried them, after the first one started Smoking, I removed and inspected all the installed ones. They all looked like the one in your photo or worse. No fixture got a CFL installed again!

This is a reasonable response

I don't care how much mr. mantakos want to force these up my A**, it just won't happen.

This isn't

 

[Cap'n Jack]

CFLs are stupid when LEDs are available as direct replacements for nearly every bulb now.

They hadn't gotten there the last time I bought bulbs a few months ago. Some were a reasonable price for the expected lamp life, others weren't. At the time, I couldn't find replacements for my recessed kitchen lights and ceiling fan. I suppose I could look on-line, but I don't consider it an easy replacement unless I can just pick it up at my local Menards, Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace store.

Not when you're paying the bill and CFLS are $2-$6 while LEDs are $20-$100.

I will be looking into getting soem LEDs if they can dim like incandescents.

According to this link, some are dimmable

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/

and expensive.

 

[Henning]

Not when you're paying the bill and CFLS are $2-$6 while LEDs are $20-$100.

I will be looking into getting soem LEDs if they can dim like incandescents.

LEDs are considerably less than that. There are ones that will dim well, they are the most expensive to set up though because the dimmer is an AC stepper for the DC transformer. It cost me $27 per dimmed circuit to set up, unless you want to use a cheap pot for the DC dimmer. The good bulbs were costing $9 each direct from China in boxes of 100 for MR-16s in Warm White, I get 30* and 60* lenses in them. They don't go super dim like an incandescent will, but they will go down over half their lumens. You have to go DC to dim though. Several advertised they would dim on AC, and some were better than others, but none were acceptable.

 

[Henning]

They hadn't gotten there the last time I bought bulbs a few months ago. Some were a reasonable price for the expected lamp life, others weren't. At the time, I couldn't find replacements for my recessed kitchen lights and ceiling fan. I suppose I could look on-line, but I don't consider it an easy replacement unless I can just pick it up at my local Menards, Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace store.

According to this link, some are dimmable

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/

and expensive.

Shop directly in China online. I went through the process 2 years ago and found everything. Dimmable is an issue that requires going to DC power, trust me on this....BTDT, spent a lot of time and effort trying to get the warbling out of the light but couldn't get it to be acceptable in the low lumen ranges. The cheaper ones will strobe rather than warble the light and may lose 10% of their lumens before shutting off completely.

You don't need to buy them locally because they don't fail frequently. Buy 5% extra and you're set for life.

 

[denverpilot]

Why's it an unreasonable response?

He wants laws against the rest of us using what we want to use. He's been clear on that.

He's also been clear that he sees this as a positive change, whether we do in our lives or not, and thus since he sees it as a positive, the rest of us are wrong about what we wish to use and we deserve to have no say in the matter today. He believes our say was over years ago.

A similarly "reasonable" offer would be to have Mr Mantakos install a remotely operated switch on the mains to his house which I can activate any time I need to lower energy consumption after indiscriminately burning an incandescent for an hour or going flying.

This will efficiently "atone" for my "transgressions" and inconveniences those who argue loudest that no one is being inconvenienced.

I flew three hours this weekend. I'll let you know when you can turn your power back on.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Shop directly in China online. I went through the process 2 years ago and found everything. Dimmable is an issue that requires going to DC power, trust me on this....BTDT, spent a lot of time and effort trying to get the warbling out of the light but couldn't get it to be acceptable in the low lumen ranges. The cheaper ones will strobe rather than warble the light and may lose 10% of their lumens before shutting off completely.

You don't need to buy them locally because they don't fail frequently. Buy 5% extra and you're set for life.

Sorry- I'm not re-wiring my house for DC.

Why's it an unreasonable response?

You don't think "I don't care how much mr. mantakos wants me to use them it just won't happen." isn't a better response?

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Why's it an unreasonable response?

Probably because it references forcible sodomy with a light bulb.

He wants laws against the rest of us using what we want to use. He's been clear on that.

....

If that's big an issue for "the rest of us," why don't elections and legislation reflect that?

 

[Henning]

Sorry- I'm not re-wiring my house for DC.

You don't think "I don't care how much mr. mantakos wants me to use them it just won't happen." isn't a better response?

You don't have to. You use your AC to power the DC transformer and hook up the rest of the circuit carrying the dimmable LCDs to the DC power supply. I didn't change any of the wiring out.

 

[Gary F]

I do not like the spectrum of current LED lights. My favorite is a CFL and that is the big reason I put up with them. It is unfortunate that so many people have no problem with the criminalization of the production of something which is safe and preferred by many consumers. Apparently the road to Utopia is paved with laws and regulations.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

You don't have to. You use your AC to power the DC transformer and hook up the rest of the circuit carrying the dimmable LCDs to the DC power supply. I didn't change any of the wiring out.

Again, I really don't want to change or run wiring. The dimmer is on the wall; the lamps I want to dim are in the ceiling in the ceiling fan that runs off 120VAC.

I'm pretty sure most of the rest of us really don't want to design AC to DC circuits with transformers or switching power supplies.

EDIT: If one needs to design or add circuits to make LEDs work, they really aren't replacements for incandescent lamps for most people.

 

[skidoo]

You don't think "I don't care how much mr. mantakos wants me to use them it just won't happen." isn't a better response?

There is a difference in someone simply "Wanting" someone else to do something and someone advocating the Force of law to get someone to do it.

I am normally mild mannered in my communication, and I confess that I was going to use "force it down my Th*****". but that term has been used so much in the news lately it sounded stale, and the spelling just did not look right to me. So, my former Marine instinct came out and figured the other end (simpler spelling) is just as good to express the idea. And the idea is just as valid...

 

[Cap'n Jack]

There is a difference in someone simply "Wanting" someone else to do something and someone advocating the Force of law to get someone to do it.

Agreed

I am normally mild mannered in my communication, and I confess that I was going to use "force it down my Th*****". but that term has been used so much in the news lately it sounded stale, and the spelling just did not look right to me. So, my former Marine instinct came out and figured the other end (simpler spelling) is just as good to express the idea. And the idea is just as valid...

And you made your point in terms better suited for SZ

 

[skidoo]

And you made your point in terms better suited for SZ

Perhaps this whole thread is better suited for SZ. I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. I come here to discuss airplanes and flying. So, consider me done with this thread.

 

[Anthony]

If that's big an issue for "the rest of us," why don't elections and legislation reflect that?

Well it did. Look at what happened to Congress and the majority of state legislatures recently. In addition the EPA officials that mandate this crap aren't elected officials. Yes, the leadership is appointed by elected officials, but in the meantime they can mandate just about ane environmental regulation they want with out any input from the general public. Once these new regulations are enacted they are almost impossible to overturn.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Well it did. Look at what happened to Congress and the majority of state legislatures recently.

Based on light bulbs? What has happened since?

In addition the EPA officials that mandate this crap aren't elected officials.

This is a statute, not a regulation...and was signed by GWB.

Yes, the leadership is appointed by elected officials, but in the meantime they can mandate just about ane environmental regulation they want with out any input from the general public.

Public input is required, and the agency is required to consider it. Unfotunately, a lot of the public, if/when it chooses to participate, submits comments in the form of "rabble rabble rabble," and those comments are simply worthless.

Once these new regulations are enacted they are almost impossible to overturn.

All it takes is an election. Which shows about how much most Americans care.

 

[Anthony]

I was referring to issues like cap and tax (trade) that the EPA is trying to move forward on without any legislation in place, in addition to all the other regs that get enacted. Should have been clearer.

 

[Henning]

Again, I really don't want to change or run wiring. The dimmer is on the wall; the lamps I want to dim are in the ceiling in the ceiling fan that runs off 120VAC.

I'm pretty sure most of the rest of us really don't want to design AC to DC circuits with transformers or switching power supplies.

EDIT: If one needs to design or add circuits to make LEDs work, they really aren't replacements for incandescent lamps for most people.

What part of "No rewiring" involved is unclear. It takes all the wiring you use right now, you make a total of 8 wire connections and install $27 worth of hardware in the circuit and you are still using your same dimmer switch on the wall. If you don't need dimming, you can just use the plug in/screw in replacement bulbs on AC no problem. Personally I don't care what light bulb you use. I'm just saying that the perceived problems stated with LEDs are not accurate. Retrofitting for LED to get best effect out of it is more than a 10 cent deal, that's true, but the reduction in consumption is pretty good. On boats they have the extra advantage of reducing the heat load, especially in confined spaces, that we got from incandescent lights. Considering we were operating in the tropics, that was a good thing as it took a large load off of our AC system. If you live in a cold climate, that advantage gets reduced.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

What part of "No rewiring" involved is unclear. It takes all the wiring you use right now, you make a total of 8 wire connections and install $27 worth of hardware in the circuit and you are still using your same dimmer switch on the wall. If you don't need dimming, you can just use the plug in/screw in replacement bulbs on AC no problem. Personally I don't care what light bulb you use. I'm just saying that the perceived problems stated with LEDs are not accurate. Retrofitting for LED to get best effect out of it is more than a 10 cent deal, that's true, but the reduction in consumption is pretty good. On boats they have the extra advantage of reducing the heat load, especially in confined spaces, that we got from incandescent lights. Considering we were operating in the tropics, that was a good thing as it took a large load off of our AC system. If you live in a cold climate, that advantage gets reduced.

You aren't making yourself very clear. I don't doubt it can be done, but let's look at this statement:

What part of "No rewiring" involved is unclear. It takes all the wiring you use right now, you make a total of 8 wire connections and install $27 worth of hardware in the circuit and you are still using your same dimmer switch on the wall.

I make a total of 8 wire connections: Where are these connections?

$27 worth of hardware: aside from a transformer and a rectifier, what else is needed? Does it need to be a full bridge rectifier or would a simple diode suffice? Any filtering needed?

 

[Henning]

You aren't making yourself very clear. I don't doubt it can be done, but let's look at this statement:

I make a total of 8 wire connections: Where are these connections?

$27 worth of hardware: aside from a transformer and a rectifier, what else is needed? Does it need to be a full bridge rectifier or would a simple diode suffice? Any filtering needed?

Everything per circuit required except for the bulbs cost $27 from RS Components. Just cheap stuff, power supply like for a piece of electronics to laptop depending on how many bulbs in the circuit and a small stepper for the dimmer to control since we were using BTacino tap style dimmer controls. Trying to do it AC was proving expensive and impossible, but DC, no worries.

 

[Doggtyred]

http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/06/20/texas-tells-feds-shove-your-light-bulb-ban

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/06/20/texas-tells-feds-shove-your-light-bulb-ban

Unconstitutional.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

You don't have to. You use your AC to power the DC transformer and hook up the rest of the circuit carrying the dimmable LCDs to the DC power supply. I didn't change any of the wiring out.

I read transformers here- do you mean those things with two coils of wires with a ferrite core between them?

Everything per circuit required except for the bulbs cost $27 from RS Components. Just cheap stuff, power supply like for a piece of electronics to laptop depending on how many bulbs in the circuit and a small stepper for the dimmer to control since we were using BTacino tap style dimmer controls. Trying to do it AC was proving expensive and impossible, but DC, no worries.

All the laptops I know about use switching power supplies. I'm confused about the earlier statement with transformers since switching power supplies don't have them. The DC side of these power supplies is 12 or 24V.

I really doubt the average Joe is going to go through all that. Kudos to you for making it work, but LED lighting really isn't ready for prime time yet.

 

[Gary F]

Unconstitutional.

Only if you believe in the corrupted interpretation of the commerce clause. I guess the feds should send in the National Guard to protect Texans from the evil and dangerous incandescent bulb.

 

[gismo]

CFLs are stupid when LEDs are available as direct replacements for nearly every bulb now.

I've started buying R30 LED lamps instead of CFLs for the recessed cans that are all over my house. The LEDs don't take 5 minutes to get brighter than a candle which was my chief objection to the CFLs but right now the LEDs cost $35 each compared to about $3 for a CFL. I'm hoping they last a long time.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Only if you believe in the corrupted interpretation of the commerce clause. I guess the feds should send in the National Guard to protect Texans from the evil and dangerous incandescent bulb.

I'm not sure how the regulation of lightbulbs and power consumption isn't interstate commerce, even under the "purest" concept of the term....

 

[weilke]

I'm not sure how the regulation of lightbulbs and power consumption isn't interstate commerce, even under the "purest" concept of the term....

How about lightbulbs made in Texas and sold in Texas ?

Are they interstate because electrons flow through them that crossed a stateline ?

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

How about lightbulbs made in Texas and sold in Texas ?

Presuming you apply the plain meaning of "interstate commerce," yes.

Are they interstate because electrons flow through them that crossed a stateline ?

Presuming you advocate for something that's not the law but that many people advocate for when it's in their favor, then absolutely. As in, beyond any dispute.

 

[Clark1961]

Presuming you apply the plain meaning of "interstate commerce," yes.

Made in Texas and consumed in Texas would be intrastate commerce, not interstate.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Made in Texas and consumed in Texas would be intrastate commerce, not interstate.

For starters, you have the electricity and all of the collateral consequences. But let's overlook that.

Even if something remains "in-state," it nevertheless has an impact on interstate commerce. It could be anything from travelling on a road to complying with a different set of regulations which has a ripple effect (ironically, check out the effect Texas has on school textbooks for an example of it). It also creates a "patchwork" system of law which is what the Constitution, and particularly the ICC, was created to prevent in regard to issues that affect all of us.

Now, this theory can certainly be criticized on "common sense" grounds. As in, "how can something that remains in State X, and will always remain in X, an item of interstate commerce?" And that's certainly a meritorious criticism, although it does ignore the indisputable ripple and patchwork effects.

Regardless, it's not even a slight stretch of the term "interstate commerce." It's a reasonable interpretation of the term.

Constitutional interpretation for most of us isn't so much an exercise in logic and reason as it is an exercise in twisting words to get them to say what we want them to.

A good example to consider would actually be aviation. Even assuming that there's a plane that remains in State X for its entire career, it's still going to be subject to Federal law and regulation. And there are a whole bunch of very good reasons for that, with a whole lot of very tangible benefits.

 

[Clark1961]

For starters, you have the electricity and all of the collateral consequences. But let's overlook that.

Even if something remains "in-state," it nevertheless has an impact on interstate commerce. It could be anything from travelling on a road to complying with a different set of regulations which has a ripple effect (ironically, check out the effect Texas has on school textbooks for an example of it). It also creates a "patchwork" system of law which is what the Constitution, and particularly the ICC, was created to prevent in regard to issues that affect all of us.

Now, this theory can certainly be criticized on "common sense" grounds. As in, "how can something that remains in State X, and will always remain in X, an item of interstate commerce?" And that's certainly a meritorious criticism, although it does ignore the indisputable ripple and patchwork effects.

Regardless, it's not even a slight stretch of the term "interstate commerce." It's a reasonable interpretation of the term.

Hogwash. Anyone with half a brain knows better. Lawyers make things up to suit themselves. It's up to the rest of us to call them on their BS.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

Hogwash. Anyone with half a brain knows better. Lawyers make things up to suit themselves. It's up to the rest of us to call them on their BS.

Shrug.

I'm sure you can back up your position with something like reasoning.