CFIs vs Maintenance

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Mar 16, 2019.

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  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    A young owner of a 172 approached me to day for my opinion on a problem he has with his Aircraft and CFI. He had bought the 172 to learn to fly and family transportation. The engine was a 0 since major (not by me) and the owner was given specific instruction for break in for the 6 brand new superior cylinders, by the engine overhaul company a Certified repair station with a good reputation.
    The CFI ignored these instructions, and now 52 hours since major the cylinders are toast, compression is down to 20/80 and burning 1 qt in 3 hours, (no leaks)
    The CFI admitted he was told how the company wanted the engine to be run for the first 50 hours. and he admitted he did not run it that way.

    Now the question.

    How much responsibility does the CFI have in reimbursement to the owner for damages?
     
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  2. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Zero. It's the owners problem if he failed, for any reason, to follow the "usual and customary" break in.
     
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  3. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    50/50. The CFI for ignoring the instructions and the owner for not insisting that they be followed.

    Unless there is more to the story that we don’t know.

    But good luck getting anything out of the CFI unless he is taken to court.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I can’t see how the CFI could be held for all of the blame. He certainly should’ve known better and in all regards was quite foolish of him, but it’s ultimately the owner (and operator’s) responsibility to comply.
     
  5. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    Got to love the liability train!!

    The owner should go after mr cfi for not following specific recommendations given to him, if that is indeed what happened.
     
  6. aftCG

    aftCG Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Well the CFI is the idiot but I don't think there's a way he's going to cough up any money. I mean, he's a CFI.
     
  7. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    The owner knew the instructions, but started training in it anyway? I assume that is where the first 50hrs came from?
     
  8. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    CFI insurance?
     
  9. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Where were the other two cylinders attached? Perhaps he could replace the bad ones with the spares.
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    This kid had no idea what the instructor was doing.
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    It's a 0-300-D
     
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  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    You assume correctly. the owner had no idea the CFI was not following the instructions of the Overhauler
     
  13. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    They might as well been written in Greek
     
  14. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Not following break in instructions results in this much damage after 52 hours?

    That seems rediculous. If that much damage is likely, that’s something the factory could do. Was there any sort of engine warranty? I don’t think it can be proven how the engine was run.
     
  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    That's my feelings too. But it is like getting blood out of a turnip.
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    It can, overheat the rings doing slow flight and it will take the temper out of the rings, they collapse into their groves, and huge amount of blow by happens.

    I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS ENGINE APART---- yet.
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    You know what I know. today was day 1
     
  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    yes there is an engine warranty, but it won't cover this.
     
  19. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    The blind leading the blind. Mr owner needs to go to school or find someone to manage the plane with a big stick. Mr cfi needs his knuckles rapped, though I bet he knows little more than mr owner.

    A nice, expensive lesson for both!
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Just my feelings.
    Any CFI that doesn't know enough about aircraft that they would not follow brake in instructions, shouldn't be teaching.
    If they don't have the cash to make this good, they should get this owner his PPL free of charge.
     
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  21. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    How was it supposed to be flown and what did the instructor do instead? Was an explanation given by the CFI as to why he didn't follow the directions?
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I wish I knew that. I talked to both for a very short time, and have not seen the instructions given
    I do know the CFI was teaching slow flight at high power settings. Some of the 52 hours were ferry flight by the Same ferry pilot/CFI.
     
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    My main concern in this thread is, How much Liability does the CFI have in making this right.
     
  24. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ZERO


    Besides for all you know the shop botched the job.

    Shy of teaching this guy back to back long cross countries, breaking in cylinders isn’t exactly compatible with most of PPL training.
     
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  25. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Is it possible to simultaneously follow the 50 hour break-in routine and do the required maneuvers that primary training requires?

    Was the CFI hired to provide primary flight training or do the 50 hour break-in?

    Does the owner understand his ownership responsibilities under the regulations?
     
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  26. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The airplane is the owners responsibilty,the CFI is hired to give instruction,looks like a big miscommunication on both sides.
     
  27. gdwindowpane

    gdwindowpane Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    Do manufacturers/remanufacturers every break in engines at the factory? Like on a rack or something?
     
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  28. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    Sounds like a cheap owner learning an expensive lesson. I guess he’ll know now.

    How can break in procedures be Greek? I’ve always been told something simple, like “run 75% power, 25 hours, minimize low power, no patttern work and no practice approaches.

    And to the person that asked, working on private is not conducive to a proper engine break in. Of course the owner could have come along and learned something on 50hours of cross country, but learning the basics would have to wait or be started in another plane.
     
  29. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Wait a minute, the owner was given explicit instructions and it's the CFi' s fault? Ah no. And why doesn't the kid bring the airplane back to the original mechanic? Not a lot adding up in this story, the least of which is why is it always operator error when an engine goes bad. Can't the cylinders be pulled and rehoned?
     
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  30. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route PoA Supporter

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    The owner should have paid to have the engine broken in properly. If he was being cheap and trying to make revenue during the break in period, he kind of created the problem. On the other hand, what kind of pilot, after being told how to operate the aircraft, just blows it off and abuses it?
     
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  31. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Kid should have hired a pilot to fly off the 50 hours. AND.................That seems to be a HUGE LOT of hours to break in a cylinder. Should easily happen in less than 10.

    Here at M94 a experimental builder has hired a pilot to fly off the 40 hr requirement.
     
  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    That would have been the smart thing to do..
    I love how many here believe the brand new owner should have known all this on day 1.
    I believe the big mistake was him not having a mentor.
     
  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I think that is where it is.
     
  34. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    With this re-builder I would think that was done.
     
  35. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    This expensive lesson is what happens when a student buys a plane with zero knowledge and hires a CFI with limited knowledge/experiance.
     
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  36. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Usually, engines are tested for few hours. The break in takes place by the owner.
     
  37. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I believe that is exactly what happened.
     
  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Next question..

    If you were a A&P-IA would you get involved?
    I've already given my opinion, and that was all the owner asked for.
     
  39. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    My thoughts too. It shouldn’t take more than 15 hours for the rings to properly seat themselves.
     
  40. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

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    From a legal side none unless they had a contract. From a "do the right thing" side......

    Involved how? Repairing the engine?
     
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