CFII No more medical

S

Steven8385

Pre-Flight
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
94
Location
NY
Display Name
Display name:
Steven8385
So i am about 15 hrs from 40 for my IFR, and I think my CFII might have lost his medical. I might start taking lessons with the DPE but how hard is it to find an instructor to sign me off to take the ride then, or can i get a safety pilot have the CFII sit in the back and then sign me off....
 
The instructor doesn't need a medical,as long as he is not the PIC.
 
I just had this happen to me. My CFII had some medical stuff and even though we could have finished in VMC he had to deal with getting fixed. I started flying with another instructor from my school and now after 6-8 hours with him, I'm about 43 total, I have a stage check/mock ride scheduled on Wednesday. If all is well it's DPE time.

If you need 15 hrs fly with a new CFII and you should be fine. 15 hous should be more than enough for someone to sign you off.

Good Luck
 
Steven8385 said:
So i am about 15 hrs from 40 for my IFR, and I think my CFII might have lost his medical. I might start taking lessons with the DPE but how hard is it to find an instructor to sign me off to take the ride then, or can i get a safety pilot have the CFII sit in the back and then sign me off....
Click to expand...

Not familiar with this, but lessons with a DPE may not be a bad thing... they're already familiar with you, so I would think it would be a big positive.
 
An instrument instructor is essentially grounded from training instrument students without a medical. You'll need another instructor to continue and 15 hours is plenty of time to get back in the game and get you to the point to sign you off for the check ride. I wouldn't bother flying with the DPE since you'll need to find another CFII. You might ask either your current CFII or the DPE for recommendations to finish you up.

You might also consider an operation like PIC Inc. to do an accelerated finish-up program. It's not cheap, but it's quick and effective with no shortage of qualified instructors (including the resident "Cap'n Ron" Levy).
 
Without a medical, you cannot act as a required crew member and that is what the safety pilot/CFII is. I
 
NJP_MAN said:
Please show me where it says this
Click to expand...

§61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(v) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate and serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;

If the student is under the hood then isn't the CFII acting as a required pilot flight crewmember (safety pilot)?
 
My question is, if I get a safety pilot why can't he instruct from the back... technically speaking he is not required crew then. Also I start my instrument training essentially the middle of March so if I were to finish my hours before say middle of May, the instructor previously would have 3 hours with me when he had a medical. Can he then sign me off to take the check ride since he had given me three hours while having the medical within the 60 day period?
 
Brad Z said:
14 CFR 91.109(c)(1)
14 CFR 61.23(a)(3)
Click to expand...

Thanks. I just wasn't near the FAR/AIM at the moment.

Edit: bring a P-ASEL pilot to sit right seat have your instructor sit back seat. Problem solved.
 
Last edited:
If you read 14 CFR 61.23(b)(5) it says that a flight instructor does not need a current medical if they are not acting as pilot in command and they are not required crew. So by the way I read CFR 91.109 and CFR 61.23 he could give flight instruction as long as there was an appropriately rated safety pilot in the right seat. Can anyone else reference anything else that says this can't be done, might not be the most practical but it looks legal from what the FAR say. Thanks for all the help with this.
 
Steven8385 said:
My question is, if I get a safety pilot why can't he instruct from the back... technically speaking he is not required crew then. Also I start my instrument training essentially the middle of March so if I were to finish my hours before say middle of May, the instructor previously would have 3 hours with me when he had a medical. Can he then sign me off to take the check ride since he had given me three hours while having the medical within the 60 day period?
Click to expand...

First, it's two calendar months, not 60 days, prior to the check ride. So it matters when the ride is scheduled, not when the instructor endorses you to take the test (14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(i).

Next, 14 CFR 91.109(a) states:
No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls.

Now the regs don't specifically require the instructor to be sitting in a control station, it's quite possible to argue that this reg implies as such. Also, instructing from the back seat without a means to recover the aircraft easily seems to be a violation of 14 CFR 91.13. I'm not aware of a general councel opinion on the issue, but ymmv if you get a FSDO inspector's opinion of the issue.

Besides, you'll want the opportunity to fly in IMC during your training if possible.

Remember, you'll have a strange logbook entry for your flight that will include your instructor's logbook entry with a mention of a third safety pilot onboard. That could become a red flag to a detail-oriented DPE (either now, or in the future).
 
Steven8385 said:
My question is, if I get a safety pilot why can't he instruct from the back... technically speaking he is not required crew then. Also I start my instrument training essentially the middle of March so if I were to finish my hours before say middle of May, the instructor previously would have 3 hours with me when he had a medical. Can he then sign me off to take the check ride since he had given me three hours while having the medical within the 60 day period?
Click to expand...

The only thing he can't do is act as a required crew member (safety pilot is a required crew member). But in reality, it is tough to give effective instruction from the back seat. Part of effective instruction is to introduce the student to into difficult situations and be ready to take over if necessary. I would not be comfortable doing that from the back seat.
 
Just to add a bit more:

14 CFR 61.195(g)(1)
A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of § 91.109 of this chapter.

Connecting the dots, the regulatory assumption that the instructor is sitting in a control station is reinforced by the special requirements for flight training with a throw-over yoke. The assumption is that an instructor providing instruction is in a position to be able to control the aircraft with the controls available. That is simply not possible from the back seat.
 
Steven8385 said:
My question is, if I get a safety pilot why can't he instruct from the back... technically speaking he is not required crew then. Also I start my instrument training essentially the middle of March so if I were to finish my hours before say middle of May, the instructor previously would have 3 hours with me when he had a medical. Can he then sign me off to take the check ride since he had given me three hours while having the medical within the 60 day period?
Click to expand...

That would be fine.
 
Brad Z said:
Just to add a bit more:

14 CFR 61.195(g)(1)
A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of § 91.109 of this chapter.

Connecting the dots, the regulatory assumption that the instructor is sitting in a control station is reinforced by the special requirements for flight training with a throw-over yoke. The assumption is that an instructor providing instruction is in a position to be able to control the aircraft with the controls available. That is simply not possible from the back seat.
Click to expand...

That's not totally true. Instructors can instruct from the back seat no worries. Common scenario at the big rating mills, IR Pilot Candidate left seat under the hood, CFII candidate right seat practicing instructing and acting PIC/Safety Pilot, CFII back seat signing the instruction on both and all three are logging PIC. Same scenario happens with multi training.
 
if you are about 15 hours from your 40 hours requirement, does that mean you already have 25 hours with a CFII? Only 15 are required, rest could be with a safety pilot.
NOTE - Safety pilot is ONLY required when you are under the hood. There is no mention anywhere that you have to be under the hood to log simulated. :)
 
I have over 15 hours with my CFII. I am going to take lessons with the DPE, so I can get more actual experience, and I think he is a very good instructor. Can my original CFII that started teaching me in the middle of March be able to sign me off for the checkride without a medical? I plan on finishing up by mid May if not sooner if I have too. So i guess the most important question is can a CFII with no medical endorse a person to take a check ride?
 
CFI Academy said:
NOTE - Safety pilot is ONLY required when you are under the hood. There is no mention anywhere that you have to be under the hood to log simulated. :)
Click to expand...

§91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

It might not say that you have to be under the hood to log simulated but it pretty clearly states that you must have a safety pilot for simulated.
 
Steven8385 said:
My question is, if I get a safety pilot why can't he instruct from the back...
Click to expand...
No reason at all -- it's perfectly legal even though uncommon. Whether your instructor will agree to do that or not is another story. Just remember that if you file IFR (as you have to for the 250nm IFR XC required by 61.65(d)(2)(ii)), the safety pilot will have to be fully IFR PIC qualified and act as PIC for the flight.
 
Steven8385 said:
I have over 15 hours with my CFII. I am going to take lessons with the DPE, so I can get more actual experience, and I think he is a very good instructor. Can my original CFII that started teaching me in the middle of March be able to sign me off for the checkride without a medical?
Click to expand...
Yes, but he'll have to do it from the back seat.
 
the DPE can only sign you off to another DPE for the checkride of he/she is giving you dual
 
taters said:
the DPE can only sign you off to another DPE for the checkride of he/she is giving you dual
Click to expand...
It took me a bit to understand what Taters wrote, but I think he's agreeing that you can get all your training from a DPE/CFI, then get test prep and a signoff from another CFI, and then take the practical test with the DPE who did all the training other than the test prop and signoff.
 
Ron Levy said:
It took me a bit to understand what Taters wrote, but I think he's agreeing that you can get all your training from a DPE/CFI, then get test prep and a signoff from another CFI, and then take the practical test with the DPE who did all the training other than the test prop and signoff.
Click to expand...

I think he's saying the DPE that does the training can't also do your check ride.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think he's saying the DPE that does the training can't also do your check ride.
Click to expand...

Correct, if nothing else this is a conflict of interests for the DPE. Even as a student I wouldn't be comfortable with it because I'd be missing the independent assessment portion of the exam.
 
Ron Levy said:
It took me a bit to understand what Taters wrote, but I think he's agreeing that you can get all your training from a DPE/CFI, then get test prep and a signoff from another CFI, and then take the practical test with the DPE who did all the training other than the test prop and signoff.
Click to expand...

That was the exact scenario that I experienced getting my commercial certificate. I did most of the training with the DPE, but the last couple of lessons were with another instructor who signed me off.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think he's saying the DPE that does the training can't also do your check ride.
Click to expand...
That would not be correct. The DPE can do all your training as long as another CFI does the test prep and signs the instructor endorsement in the logbook and recommendation on the 8710-1.
 
airheadpenguin said:
Correct, if nothing else this is a conflict of interests for the DPE. Even as a student I wouldn't be comfortable with it because I'd be missing the independent assessment portion of the exam.
Click to expand...
The DPE cannot do it all. You get the independent assessment from the CFI who does the test prep and signs the recommendation/endorsement.
 
FAA Order 8900.2

8. Testing Applicants Trained by the Examiner. Except as noted in paragraphs 8a, 8b, and 8c below, an examiner who trains an applicant for a certificate or rating may only test that applicant if another instructor has given the applicant at least 3 hours of flight instruction and is the recommending instructor (1.5 hours if the test is in a glider or balloon; 1.0 hours if the test is in a powered parachute; 2.0 hours if the test is in all other light sport aircraft categories). An examiner may also test an applicant trained by that examiner for an additional aircraft class rating if the applicant has obtained the written recommendation of another CFI who has personally checked the applicant and found the applicant prepared for the practical test.
 
Brad Z said:
Now the regs don't specifically require the instructor to be sitting in a control station, it's quite possible to argue that this reg implies as such. Also, instructing from the back seat without a means to recover the aircraft easily seems to be a violation of 14 CFR 91.13. I'm not aware of a general councel opinion on the issue, but ymmv if you get a FSDO inspector's opinion of the issue.
Click to expand...


There are no limitations on which seat you get to use your CFI privileges. In fact in some cases the FAA expects you to do just that even if there was no intention to instruct in the beginning.
 
RotorAndWing said:
FAA Order 8900.2

8. Testing Applicants Trained by the Examiner. Except as noted in paragraphs 8a, 8b, and 8c below, an examiner who trains an applicant for a certificate or rating may only test that applicant if another instructor has given the applicant at least 3 hours of flight instruction and is the recommending instructor (1.5 hours if the test is in a glider or balloon; 1.0 hours if the test is in a powered parachute; 2.0 hours if the test is in all other light sport aircraft categories). An examiner may also test an applicant trained by that examiner for an additional aircraft class rating if the applicant has obtained the written recommendation of another CFI who has personally checked the applicant and found the applicant prepared for the practical test.
Click to expand...
Wow. I never knew that. That is interesting.
 
The DPE who does the test cannot be the recommending instructor. The original instructor who gave the 25 hours can be the endorsing instructor if he has covered all the PTS items and considers the applicant prepared for the test. The remaing hours can be with a safety pilot.
 
Last edited:
I myself have been the safety pilot meat in the CFII-Student sandwich when the CFII was waiting on paperwork for his medical.

CFII was in the back seat giving instruction, I was doing traffic watch and did an unusual attitude entry, and even gave a PIC order "It's hazy and the sun is low, we're approaching the airport from the West, not the East."

Whenever the CFII and I needed a private convo, we'd hit the pilot isolate button.

--Carlos V.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top