CFII Initial

dell30rb

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Has anyone done the CFII FIRST?

Looks like I am going to go this route. CFII with the FSDO and then so the CFI as an add on with a local DPE.
 
No need for complex a/c on the ride with FSDO. Apparently you have less material to cover. I had never heard of this either but apparently a bunch of folks are doing this now.
 
No need for complex a/c on the ride with FSDO. Apparently you have less material to cover. I had never heard of this either but apparently a bunch of folks are doing this now.

Well I would expect either the CFI or CFII check ride at the FSDO to be equally as thorough.
 
A friend and former editor of a big GA magazine did it that way (II first) but for a specific reason. He didn't ever intend to provide primary instruction.
 
No need for complex a/c on the ride with FSDO. Apparently you have less material to cover. I had never heard of this either but apparently a bunch of folks are doing this now.

My CFI ride involved very little with the gear. The most "complex" thing about it was a power off 180 and controlling when to put it down.
 
A friend and former editor of a big GA magazine did it that way (II first) but for a specific reason. He didn't ever intend to provide primary instruction.

Though this was okay and common in the past, the FAA has recently clarified that if you only have a CFII certificate, you can't teach anybody anything. Must have a CFI-ASE or AME, PLUS a CFII, to provide instrument instruction. So his reason wouldn't work anymore.

See:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2/kortokrax - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf
 
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Though this was okay and common in the past, the FAA has recently clarified that if you only have a CFII certificate, you can't teach anybody anything.
That's not quite true. The holder of a CFI certificate with only an Instrument-Airplane rating (CFI-IA) can give instrument ground instruction and instrument training in a flight simulation device -- just no flight training without also having the appropriate aircraft category rating (ASE or AME).

I would also point out that people often use the term "CFII" as though it were a separate ticket from a "CFI," and that a "CFI" is someone who can give flight training in an airplane. That's not correct, and confuses the issues. See 61.5 for details, but what we're discussing are the various ratings you can get on a Flight Instructor certificate, which include both aircraft ratings and instrument ratings. For example, my CFI certificate has three ratings: Airplane Single Engine, Airplane Multiengine, and Instrument-Airplane, which would best be abbreviated CFI-ASME-IA. Each rating carries with it specific privileges, and an understanding of this system is required knowledge for a CFI applicant, regardless of what rating is applied for with the initial issuance of a CFI certificate. The key is that while you can give some instrument training with only an instrument rating on your CFI ticket, you cannot give any flight training (i.e., training in an aircraft in flight) instrument or otherwise without also having the appropriate aircraft rating on both your CFI and pilot certificates.

Personally, I think the FAA was silly to allow people to get an instrument rating (e.g., Instrument-Helicopter) on a CFI without already having the appropriate aircraft rating (e.g., Rotorcraft-Helicopter) on that CFI ticket, as opposed to the way they do it for pilot certificates where the appropriate aircraft rating is a prerequisite for an instrument rating, but that's what they did, and it created apparently endless confusion.
 
Silly? Yes, I agree.

But hopefully it will save some time and money. And maybe i'll even pass the first time! (not getting my hopes up)
 
My CFI ride involved very little with the gear. The most "complex" thing about it was a power off 180 and controlling when to put it down.

The main reason a non-complex airplane is attractive to me is the price. $100/hr to rent vs $165/hr.
 
I know a few people who've done the CFII first. Usually because they had no intentions of doing primary instruction.

I'm not sure you really end up saving money either way. I wouldn't do one over the other, just do whatever you feel like doing and works for you. The real question I'd ask is what sort of instruction you intend on doing?
 
I know a few people who've done the CFII first. Usually because they had no intentions of doing primary instruction.
Since they cannot give any flight training of any sort until they get the Airplane category rating in addition to the instrument rating on their CFI ticket, I don't see what difference it makes -- you still have to do all the training and both practical tests before you can give instrument flight training.
 
The real question I'd ask is what sort of instruction you intend on doing?

All of it :)

I'm just looking for the path of least resistance to the CFI and CFII.

And honestly my skills would improve from spending more time on the CFII. I got my instrument rating long enough ago that my knowledge has atrophied from lots of J3 flying and not much instrument flying.
 
All of it :)

I'm just looking for the path of least resistance to the CFI and CFII.

And honestly my skills would improve from spending more time on the CFII. I got my instrument rating long enough ago that my knowledge has atrophied from lots of J3 flying and not much instrument flying.

Figuring out what sort of instruction you're really going to do is hard. If I look at my instructor ratings as an example, I've probably used my normal CFI the most, with my II and MEI following. I think that's typical since everyone needs a flight review, but not everyone needs an IPC.
 
That's not quite true. The holder of a CFI certificate with only an Instrument-Airplane rating (CFI-IA) can give instrument ground instruction and instrument training in a flight simulation device -- just no flight training without also having the appropriate aircraft category rating (ASE or AME).

That is true. I did not write accurately enough, and was just considering flight instruction.

The main reason a non-complex airplane is attractive to me is the price. $100/hr to rent vs $165/hr.

If you're going to get both CFI-IA and CFI-AME, I fail to see how you're saving any costs getting the CFI-IA with the FAA first. You'll still have to rent the more expensive airplane for the CFI-ASE anyway, regardless of which order you go in, and complete all the flying tasks (I'll admit, I didn't look at the additional rating task table for the CFI-ASE given already having a CFI-IA, but I can't imagine there's much difference in required manuevers. I am willing to be proven wrong.)

I'm just looking for the path of least resistance to the CFI and CFII.

I don't know that there is very much of a "least resistance" way. An initial CFI ride is hard, regardless of whether it's instrument or "normal". At least for my initial CFI ride (ASE), the FSDO inspector was fair, by the book, straightforward. No surprises and we didn't miss anything either. Exactly what should be expected, and a lot better than I thought it was going to be.

dell30rb said:
And maybe i'll even pass the first time! (not getting my hopes up)

Hey, don't be so fatalistic! If you expect to fail going in, that's likely exactly what will happen. I would submit that the people who fail the initial CFI checkride fail for the same reasons anybody fails any checkride - either they're way too nervous, or they're underprepared. Of course, a large reason for the former is often the latter.
 
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I did the CFI-IA as the initial. One, because I was more familiar with instrument regulations and procedures than I was with commercial stuff at the time and two, because the airplane was cheaper.
 
CFII with FSDO - 10 hours instruction with a roundtrip (or two) to the FSDO plus the flying itself. $2210 mooney or $1350 in a cherokee.

CFI add on with DPE - 5 hours total in cherokee(500), 1 hour in mooney (165) for a little practice plus a lap in the pattern on the checkride. Total cost $665

If I did the whole CFI-Add On in the mooney (5 hours) it would be $825.

So my total cost if I did everything in the mooney would be $3035

Total cost doing everything in cherokee with a mooney lap in the pattern $2015

I save a nifty AMU.
 
Hey, don't be so fatalistic! If you expect to fail going in, that's likely exactly what will happen. I would submit that the people who fail the initial CFI checkride fail for the same reasons anybody fails any checkride - either they're way too nervous, or they're underprepared. Of course, a large reason for the former is often the latter.

Ha, I will keep that in mind. It does not help that i've had literally everyone tell me that the FAA likes to fail people just to fail them. Although I would certainly be going in well-prepared and expecting to pass.
 
You can take two airplanes to the CFI initial ride, I wouldn't, but you can. So you take a Cherokee and a Mooney. You'll probably use the Mooney for .6-.8 of the checkride. The Cherokee you'll use for the other .5-.9. You will have to present two airplane logbooks and prove two airplanes airworthy and possible have an FAA inspector inspect those two airplanes... but that's your choice. The entire flying time for my CFI prep was around 11 hours... not a whole lot, especially considering I'd never landed from the right seat before. I imagine the CFII will take a little longer in time because instrument stuff is more complicated than commercial maneuvers.


And I wouldn't expect to save $1,000. I'd expect to save closer to $200. One lap in the pattern isn't accurate, try 3 at least. Maybe even an emergency gear extension. Plus getting fluent and comfortable in yet another totally different type in the right seat.
 
CFII with FSDO - 10 hours instruction with a roundtrip (or two) to the FSDO plus the flying itself. $2210 mooney or $1350 in a cherokee.

CFI add on with DPE - 5 hours total in cherokee(500), 1 hour in mooney (165) for a little practice plus a lap in the pattern on the checkride. Total cost $665

If I did the whole CFI-Add On in the mooney (5 hours) it would be $825.

So my total cost if I did everything in the mooney would be $3035

Total cost doing everything in cherokee with a mooney lap in the pattern $2015

I save a nifty AMU.

I don't get what you are saying. Are you trying to say that if you do the CFI-ASE intitial first, you will have to do the double-I in the mooney? :confused:

The only way you would save money doing the double-I first, all else being equal, is the time it takes to fly the Mooney from your home airport to the FSDO and back.
 
I don't get what you are saying. Are you trying to say that if you do the CFI-ASE intitial first, you will have to do the double-I in the mooney? :confused:

The only way you would save money doing the double-I first, all else being equal, is the time it takes to fly the Mooney from your home airport to the FSDO and back.

No, If I do the CFII first with FSDO I can do the whole thing in a cherokee. Because that was my initial ride, I can then take the CFI-ASE with the DPE based at my home field. He said I 'basically just had to fly around the pattern' in the mooney and I could do the rest of the checkride in the cherokee. This means no ferrying airplanes and equates to maybe an hour of mooney flying.

Three laps instead of one.. so what, maybe an extra $75

I think you and Z06 are both missing that I can take the entire CFII initial in the cherokee. I don't need to ferry any second airplane to the FSDO nor do I have to convince them of the airworthiness of two different airplanes.
 
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Ha, I will keep that in mind. It does not help that i've had literally everyone tell me that the FAA likes to fail people just to fail them. Although I would certainly be going in well-prepared and expecting to pass.

Really depends on the FSDO, so ask locals. Don't go to Harrisburg FSDO. You also wouldn't, since they're about 400 nm away. :D
 
No, If I do the CFII first with FSDO I can do the whole thing in a cherokee. Because that was my initial ride, I can then take the CFI-ASE with the DPE based at my home field. He said I 'basically just had to fly around the pattern' in the mooney and I could do the rest of the checkride in the cherokee. This means no ferrying airplanes and equates to maybe an hour of mooney flying.

Three laps instead of one.. so what, maybe an extra $75

CFI ASE PTS said:
A complex airplane must be furnished for the performance of takeoff and landing maneuvers and appropriate emergency procedures.

Has nothing to do with whether it's your initial, or not.

I think you and Z06 are both missing that I can take the entire CFII initial in the cherokee. I don't need to ferry any second airplane to the FSDO nor do I have to convince them of the airworthiness of two different airplanes.

I'm not missing that, but how it saves you > $1,000.
 
I still think that it is mostly a waste of time to train and do the CFI in two planes, unless you own the fixed gear. Remember you are going to have to know both planes very well, and be able to demonstrate commercial maneuvers in both.

Focusing one only one plane, can cut down the flight hours, and makes a shorter overall day. (It still may take all day)
 
CFII with FSDO - 10 hours instruction with a roundtrip (or two) to the FSDO plus the flying itself. $2210 mooney or $1350 in a cherokee.

CFI add on with DPE - 5 hours total in cherokee(500), 1 hour in mooney (165) for a little practice plus a lap in the pattern on the checkride. Total cost $665
Where did you get the required 10 hours of flight training in a complex airplane?
 
Where did you get the required 10 hours of flight training in a complex airplane?

He probably isn't checked out in it yet, and there is some insurance requirement.

Remember, we are trying to do the bare minimum required here :dunno::dunno:
 
He probably isn't checked out in it yet, and there is some insurance requirement.

Remember, we are trying to do the bare minimum required here :dunno::dunno:

I have no insurance requirement issues with any of the airplanes, I am current in both the PA-28 and M20J.

Please school me on the life lessons I will learn in doing my CFII in a Mooney versus a Cherokee.
 
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I have no insurance requirement issues with any of the airplanes, I am current in both the PA-28 and M20J.

Please school me on the life lessons I will learn in doing my CFII in a Mooney versus a Cherokee.


I wouldn't take the II in a Mooney, I would do it in the Cherokee.

I would do the CFI initial, because our local FSDO probably hasn't done a II ride in the last few years. They frequently refuse Private and Commercial applicants, and I wouldn't want to be the first II ride that had been done in a while.

I would also take one complex plane to the FSDO, and not do the two plane shuffle.
 
I wouldn't take the II in a Mooney, I would do it in the Cherokee.

I would do the CFI initial, because our local FSDO probably hasn't done a II ride in the last few years. They frequently refuse Private and Commercial applicants, and I wouldn't want to be the first II ride that had been done in a while.

I would also take one complex plane to the FSDO, and not do the two plane shuffle.

All of this.

But the more I think about this the odder it gets. Let's say you do take the CFI in the Mooney and do it first. It took me 11 hours to get ready for the CFI ride. 11x165=1815 + 1.5 for checkride ~250. So we're just under $2,100 plus dual.

I just don't see how doing the II first in the Chrokee will be cheaper than doing the CFI first in the Mooney then doing the II in the Cherokee. It's the same stuff in a different order? :dunno:
 
All of this.

But the more I think about this the odder it gets. Let's say you do take the CFI in the Mooney and do it first. It took me 11 hours to get ready for the CFI ride. 11x165=1815 + 1.5 for checkride ~250. So we're just under $2,100 plus dual.

I just don't see how doing the II first in the Chrokee will be cheaper than doing the CFI first in the Mooney then doing the II in the Cherokee. It's the same stuff in a different order? :dunno:


He is saying that he would have to fly the Mooney to the initial checkride at the FSDO, but not to the DPE onsite for his CFI add on. There is some delta there, but it can't be much. Either way you are flying an airplane to the FSDO.
 
He is saying that he would have to fly the Mooney to the initial checkride at the FSDO, but not to the DPE onsite for his CFI add on.

Holy crap that is absolutely not what I have been trying to tell you.
 
Please for the love of god, someone here that has been reading tell me that I have made it clear that I will be able to do the entire CFII initial at the FSDO in a cherokee.


No, If I do the CFII first with FSDO I can do the whole thing in a cherokee. Because that was my initial ride, I can then take the CFI-ASE with the DPE based at my home field. He said I 'basically just had to fly around the pattern' in the mooney and I could do the rest of the checkride in the cherokee. This means no ferrying airplanes and equates to maybe an hour of mooney flying.

Three laps instead of one.. so what, maybe an extra $75

I think you and Z06 are both missing that I can take the entire CFII initial in the cherokee. I don't need to ferry any second airplane to the FSDO nor do I have to convince them of the airworthiness of two different airplanes.
 
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All of this.

But the more I think about this the odder it gets. Let's say you do take the CFI in the Mooney and do it first. It took me 11 hours to get ready for the CFI ride. 11x165=1815 + 1.5 for checkride ~250. So we're just under $2,100 plus dual.

$2100 is really not that bad. But $1350 sounds better. I don't learn anything extra by spending the extra money.

Getting CFII and CFI is quite expensive, what with $600 going to CATS (4 writtens if I want to be able to get gold seal), $450 to the DPE who does my add on and then i'm paying my CFII about $900 for this whole thing.
 
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$2100 is really not that bad. But $1350 sounds better. I don't learn anything extra by spending the extra money.

Getting CFII and CFI is quite expensive, what with $600 going to CATS (4 writtens if I want to be able to get gold seal), $450 to the DPE who does my add on and then i'm paying my CFII about $900 for this whole thing.

Considering I just finished my CFI, I understand how expensive it is. I don't understand why you need 4 writtens instead of 3 though. But either way you will fly the Cherokee for the CFII and the Mooney (and Cherokee possibly) for the CFI. I don't understand how you're projected to save. And it's honestly not worth it using two airplanes to save $80 or so. I just don't get it, and I don't think anyone else in this thread does either. I just don't see how it's any sort of significantly cheaper to do the CFII first when you'll be flying the Cherokee regardless on the CFII ride.
 
I want to be a CFII.

I can do this one of two ways. I'm listing flight time only here because the ground time, study time and cost of the written exams is the same either path.

Path A: Take the CFI-ASE Initial with the FSDO and then add on CFII with a local DPE.
A complex airplane must be used for the initial checkride with the fsdo, and it does not make sense to take two airplanes to the fsdo, so I would do this in an M20J at $165/hr. Training, the trip to the fsdo for the checkride plus the checkride itself will be about 15 hours of hobbs time. I would then need to add on the CFII which can be done in a warrior. Figure 5 hours of flight time at $100/hr

So for Path A I will need to purchase 15 hours in the M20J (CFI with FSDO) and 5 hours in the PA-28 (CFII add on with DPE). Total cost $2975


Path B - Take the CFII initial ride with the FSDO and then add on the CFI-ASE with a DPE at my home field. I will not need a complex airplane for the CFII initial. I will do the entire CFII initial checkride in a warrior, I will need to purchase approximately 15 hours of PA28 time for this checkride.

Next (still path B here, focus) I will need to do the CFI-ASE add on checkride at my home field with a DPE. My DPE has already said that I can do all of the maneuvers in the PA-28 and I will only need to take a lap in the pattern in the M20J. I will need about 5 hours PA28 time and 1 hour M20J time.

Total cost for path B: 20 hrs PA28 and 1 hour M20J = $2100
 
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