CFI with a stuck mic on CTAF -- dual received?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by AndRotate, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. AndRotate

    AndRotate Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2020
    Messages:
    18
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AndRotate
    In all seriousness, though, how do you get someone to unstick their mic? Does anything actually work?
     
  2. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,464
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ari
    I think that all you can hope to do is find them on the ground afterward.
     
  3. woodchucker

    woodchucker Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,554
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    Treat as nordo and continue on with life. I was just doing pattern work one time and was receiving but not transmitting. Took me two laps to figure it out.
     
  4. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    3,105
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    Nope, nothing you can do. As long as they are transmitting they won't hear anything else. I just love the people that feel the need to yell "Stuck mic" at them though.
     
  5. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    575
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ernie
    Middle finger usually makes me feel better but that's about it.

    As we were taxiing up there were 2 announcing in the pattern and a third that was keying to announce but couldn't hear anything. Could tell one of the 2 was a student and they had to figure out what the other guy was doing as it was unclear he was doing pattern work. After the guy with the mic issue landed and was clear of runway i let him know could hear him keying but not hearing anything. He keyed to acknowledge but couldn't hear anything still. Half surprised the other 2 didn't say anything before I did as they were up working around him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  6. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Larry in TN
    If they are listening on 121.5 on a second radio, you can transmit there to tell them.
     
  7. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    3,105
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    Works .05% of the time.
     
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,771
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    That’s why you’re supposed to say “stuck mic” on the stuck mic freq. ;)
     
    Der Fliegermeister likes this.
  9. Llewtrah381

    Llewtrah381 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2010
    Messages:
    68
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Llewtrah
    I’ve heard that call on 121.5 but in my plane (Warrior) if one radio is transmitting the other is blocked out by a relay, so I’m not sure the person can always receive even on a second radio/frequency.

    The “test”, I think, is to have the second radio go to the overhead speaker and then set that radio to the same frequency as the first (if your audio panel allows this). If you can’t hear your voice in the speaker when you broadcast you have the relay. Don’t be fooled by side tone in your ear from the first radio.

    Haven’t tried it but I suspect having ALL radios go to the speaker would offer the same test, since I’m not sure a side tone is produced when using the speaker. Could be wrong about that part.

    Maybe this is true for GA but airliners/big planes have completely independent radios. Then again, if they did, they’d probably know of the stick mic issue on the frequency.
     
  10. Jim Carpenter

    Jim Carpenter Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2019
    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    Lander, WY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim Carpenter
    In general, don't do that, it will/could set up a horrendous feedback squeal.
     
  11. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,525
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    Just another down side of asynchronous communications.
    Anyone else remember an attempt (50 years ago or more) to get aircraft communications split to two separate frequencies? One for transmit, one for receive.
    It obviously had problems with the technology that was available at the time, but it certainly would be doable now.
     
  12. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,771
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Xmit 122.1, listen over the VOR. ;)
     
    MikeNY, PeterNSteinmetz and Shepherd like this.
  13. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Could easily do it with just one frequency using suppressed carrier upper and lower sidebands. And that technology has been around forever.
     
  14. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,773
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    With all of the hoops required to be authorized for PRM approaches at an air carrier I can’t imagine just how ****ed up the implementation of that would be if it was anything other than setting one channel/frequency and using the radio same as we do now.
     
  15. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,525
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    This was what they were proposing.
    You wouldn't set frequencies, you would pick an airport assigned "channel" and it would automatically set the frequencies. Honestly, I don't remember why they killed it.
     
  16. pmanton

    pmanton Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    Indian Hills Airpark Salome, AZ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1431A
    That happened right over our airpark, except the "CFI" giving "instruction" was a student pilot instructing a non pilot.
     
  17. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,671
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    So if everyone is listening on a different frequency than they are transmitting on, how is anyone going to hear anything? I think I missed something.
     
  18. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    4,525
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    It's a long time ago. But an airport would get a pair of frequencies as a channel. You would select that channel and some magic happened in the little box and you would talk and it would transmit on one frequency and they would receive it on another.
    The problem was the wizard couldn't get the magic in the box to work. It's so long ago I don't remember the details.
     
  19. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,153
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    17
    Oops

    I wonder if their entire cockpit conversation was recorded by LiveATC?
     
  20. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,671
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I see. Thanks
     
  21. Country Flier

    Country Flier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2019
    Messages:
    107
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CFL
    We had someone flying with a stuck mic up my way a few months ago. The amazing/annoying part was they must have had a plane with a ridiculous amount of fuel, because I heard them for over an hour on the way to breakfast, then they were still on the air two hours later all the way on my way home...over 4 hours total. You’d think it would eventually burn up the final amplifier in their radio. I even knew where they where at, because I could hear the pilot pointing out landmarks to his passenger. At one point in my flight the offender and I were only about 10 miles apart and I seriously considered looking for them, but then I realized I wouldn’t know what to do if I found them.
     
    JoshN likes this.
  22. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    FYI - there's a pretty good article on duplex radio comms in the March issue of IEEE Spectrum. Frequency-division duplexing has been done for a while, but there's work in progress to do it over a single frequency, which would greatly improve spectrum efficiency.

    The "magic" that @Shepherd references, though, is present in your cell phone and its network. Essentially, duplex (or multiplex) tower comms would work similarly to a cell phone conference call. Rather than selecting a frequency, you'd select a "channel" that would be on at least two (possibly more) frequencies assigned by a network controller, just like you now dial into a conference call.
     
  23. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    6,216
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    I thought cell phones were FHSS and CDMA these days?
     
  24. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,933
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    didn't you mean half-duplex?
     
    Shepherd likes this.
  25. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2013
    Messages:
    576
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doug Reid
    Nope...when you key your transmitter, it mutes your receive audio on both coms wired to your audio panel.

    You could send him a text message :).

    I thought the advantage of AM is that even though someone has a stuck mic, you can still receive a transmission from another station..with the annoying heterodyne squeal included.
     
  26. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    They are. That's why I said "possibly more" frequencies; there's no reason frequency hopping couldn't be done.

    Of course, the system would have to be much more reliable than a typical cell phone network. I was just using that as an example to illustrate how duplex comm might be done.
     
  27. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast
    Works with SCSSB, too, but I seem to recall that you don't get the squeal for some reason. Been a while since I was on the air, though, so I could be misremembering.
     
  28. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,910
    Location:
    NEPA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    Had what seemed like a 20 minute conversation a few weeks ago. Non pilot passenger must have thought he needed to use the PTT in the airplane to talk to pilot.
     
  29. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Larry in TN
    Not on the planes I fly, but I haven't flown a GA plane in about ten years.
     
  30. Joe_B1

    Joe_B1 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2020
    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Near KCON
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe_B
    SSB is still a form of amplitude modulation however, the reason that you don't get the squeal when two stations transmit is because SSB does not transmit the carrier (SC). The carrier is "inserted" at the receiver by a BFO (beat frequency oscillator).
     
  31. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    Right. Plus SSB is more power efficient and spectrum efficient. So if we want AM, why aren’t we using SSBSC?
     
  32. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    20,050
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If you think that switching to the other sideband is going to be a cure to someone close by stuck on the channel, you're in for a bit of a surprise.
     
  33. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,070
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Half Fast

    No, I just think SSB would be a better use of spectrum, provide better range on the same power, and not squeal like a banshee when two people transmit on top of each other.
     
  34. Joe_B1

    Joe_B1 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2020
    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Near KCON
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe_B
    This is true but as are many things in aviation, it's inertia. They are not going to switch to SSB for general comms because it would mandate that everyone buy new radios. Also, tuning with SSB is less forgiving than AM. Since the receiver is inserting the carrier for demodulation of an SSB signal, the tuning requirements are more critical.
     
  35. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    20,050
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    There are documented procedures to "autotune" SSB. Since most modern radios are probably going to be DSP-based to begin with, it's probably not all that hard. Of course, with some thought you probably could mandate a stuck-mic unjammer circuit (a lot of radios just have continuous transmit timeouts as it is).
     
  36. Joe_B1

    Joe_B1 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2020
    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Near KCON
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe_B
    Fair enough, with today's electronics tuning radios is not a big deal. However, retrofitting the entire fleet with new comm radios is. Moving to a sideband scheme would make every am radio obsolete. As far as the efficiency of SSB goes, given the 10 or 15 watts the current radios transmit at, shifting to SSB would not be a worthwhile benefit.

    Sure, SSB does have benefits but do those benefits outweigh the costs?
     
  37. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    20,050
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If you're going to obsolete everything, why replace a 90 year old technology with a 70 year old one. Just go digital.
     
    pgs, aterry1067, deeruck and 2 others like this.
  38. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,464
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ari
    Why half-do it? With good enough TCAS, we can all just go NORDO.
     
  39. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    15,290
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bob Noel
    more recently there was a proposal for VHF comm radios that would divide each of the (then existing) channels into 4, and included the ability of the channels assigned to ATC to override the others. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the system. Unfortunately, the world went with the 8.33kHz spacing because Europe needed the extra channels before the other system would be ready

    edit: NEXCOM VDL-4 (I think)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 7:18 AM
    Shepherd likes this.
  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    20,050
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    There is a sequencing aspect of ATC beyond just collision avoidance.