CFI Signature in Log Book

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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Question - does a CFI need to sign and endorse with the Cert # and expiration date for every flight? Or, can they just sign for the whole page..
 
midlifeflyer said:
61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
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But if a CFII is giving a lesson or acting as PIC, such as instrument training where the student is under the hood, doesn't the CFII need to sign each entry?
 
midlifeflyer said:
61.51(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
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I'm not sure what your point is. But if it's to assert that a signature is required on every line individually because 61.51(b) says "each flight or lesson," then I'd point out that the signature requirement is in 61.51(h), and not in the list of items in 61.51(b), which you elided.

(Although, for a couple of reasons, I don't think that would be required even if 61.51(b) mentioned signatures.)
 
Let's imagine that Linberg is right. What are you going to do if your student disappears, changes instructors, or even just flies with a different instructor for one flight before the page is full? Doing it once per page doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm not sure what your point is. But if it's to assert that a signature is required on every line individually because 61.51(b) says "each flight or lesson," then I'd point out that the signature requirement is in 61.51(h), and not in the list of items in 61.51(b), which you elided.

(Although, for a couple of reasons, I don't think that would be required even if 61.51(b) mentioned signatures.)
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Found it... thanks Gawd... I luv this place

h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
 
dmspilot said:
Let's imagine that Linberg is right. What are you going to do if your student disappears, changes instructors, or even just flies with a different instructor for one flight before the page is full? Doing it once per page doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Let's imagine that you fly gliders. A lesson could be two, three, or ten flights. Might take up one line, three lines, or half or even a full page. So you write the necessary information for each flight, and sign once across the page.

I have multiple such entries in my log books, and no DPE has batted an eye.

Just because you have the option doesn't mean that it will always be the best option.
 
Lindberg said:
I'm not sure what your point is. But if it's to assert that a signature is required on every line individually because 61.51(b) says "each flight or lesson," then I'd point out that the signature requirement is in 61.51(h), and not in the list of items in 61.51(b), which you elided.

(Although, for a couple of reasons, I don't think that would be required even if 61.51(b) mentioned signatures.)
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My point is what the words of the regulation say. You read (b) along with all the subsections talking about what information must be entered “for each flight or lesson logged.” I wouldn’t leave out “instrument” time entries on the line items for each flight and just put in a page total either.
 
Lindberg said:
I have multiple such entries in my log books, and no DPE has batted an eye.
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Let's say the CFII disappears and can't sign the page. Could all the flights you have, either under the hood or in actual IMC, be construed as violating the regulations or, at the least, not have even taken place?
 
Ventucky Red said:
Let's say the CFII disappears and can't sign the page. Could all the flights you have, either under the hood or in actual IMC, be construed as violating the regulations or, at the least, not have even taken place?
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Without the signature, they're not properly logged as training, and won't be usable to satisfy a regulation requiring them. But whether they violated the regs at the time is a factual question independent of how you logged them.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My point is what the words of the regulation say. You read (b) along with all the subsections talking about what information must be entered “for each flight or lesson logged.” I wouldn’t leave out “instrument” time entries on the line items for each flight and just put in a page total either.
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Yes, (h) should be read along with (b). But you're reading requirements from (b) into (h). They're separate subsections for a reason.

Regardless, (b) says "each flight or lesson," and a lesson can encompass more than one flight.
 
Lindberg said:
Let's imagine that you fly gliders. A lesson could be two, three, or ten flights. Might take up one line, three lines, or half or even a full page. So you write the necessary information for each flight, and sign once across the page.

I have multiple such entries in my log books, and no DPE has batted an eye.

Just because you have the option doesn't mean that it will always be the best option.
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If the flights are all on the same day, and fill up a page, then I don't see a problem.
 
I'd suggest the only practical way to sign less than once a line would be to sign once per "session" - meaning if the CFI and the student part ways, immediately prior to that the CFI should be signing the logbook. I can't see how it would be practical or even a good idea (or even legal, probably) to only sign once per page if it was a typical "one or two flights a day" scenario.

When I've had a day with two or more flights with the same pilot, depending on the purpose and type of training, I've either done it on separate lines (and signed each one, because well you never really know if you're going to actually after lunch, etc., so might as well instead of forgetting and signing 2 or 3 times isn't really a big deal), or I'll put it all on one line anyway and sign it (most typically this is for non-certificate training like insurance checkouts, avionics training, etc.)
 
Lindberg said:
Yes, (h) should be read along with (b). But you're reading requirements from (b) into (h). They're separate subsections for a reason.

Regardless, (b) says "each flight or lesson," and a lesson can encompass more than one flight.
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I guess we read 61.51 differently. Why limit it to a nonregulatory page. Just wait for the checkride and sign only once..
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I guess we read 61.51 differently. Why limit it to a nintegulatory page. Just wait for the checkride and sign only once..
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As I said above, that could certainly present practical and logistical issues, but not legal. And I didn't limit it to a page, that was the OP's question.
 
Lindberg said:
Without the signature, they're not properly logged as training, and won't be usable to satisfy a regulation requiring them. But whether they violated the regs at the time is a factual question independent of how you logged them.
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So, you have actual IMC time logged but didn't have the rating at the time. The CFII logs the flight; however, there is no CFII signature or other requirements for the endorsement. Are you saying this could not be an issue?

The next question would be, why wouldn't the CFII do that?

The question is coming up because I know of someone who worked on their instrument years ago but never completed it. He is now getting back onto it, and even though he'll need to start from scratch, we're trying to figure things out for when he goes for his check ride.
 
Ventucky Red said:
So, you have actual IMC time logged but didn't have the rating at the time. The CFII logs the flight; however, there is no CFII signature or other requirements for the endorsement. Are you saying this could not be an issue?

The next question would be, why wouldn't the CFII do that?

The question is coming up because I know of someone who worked on their instrument years ago but never completed it. He is now getting back onto it, and even though he'll need to start from scratch, we're trying to figure things out for when he goes for his check ride.
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If it's logged as instruction there should be an instructor signature. But there's nothing inherently suspicious about a non-instrument rated pilot having actual IMC time. I have PIC time in actual IMC because I was flying a buddy's plane, in IMC on an IFR flight plan. All perfectly legal. He was PIC for the flight, but I was the sole manipulator. That's not instruction though.
 
Lindberg said:
If it's logged as instruction there should be an instructor signature. But there's nothing inherently suspicious about a non-instrument rated pilot having actual IMC time. I have PIC time in actual IMC because I was flying a buddy's plane, in IMC on an IFR flight plan. All perfectly legal. He was PIC for the flight, but I was the sole manipulator. That's not instruction though.
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But, if it does not have the CFII signature, certificate number, or expiration date.. how can it be logged as instruction/duel received?

At face value, the log book says they acted as PIC in IMC without an IFR rating. There is no record of an instructor or another pilot, so there is no "wiggle room," correct?
 
Ventucky Red said:
But, if it does not have the CFII signature, certificate number, or expiration date.. how can it be logged as instruction/duel received?

At face value, the log book says they acted as PIC in IMC without an IFR rating. There is no record of an instructor or another pilot, so there is no "wiggle room," correct?
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As I said, as long as he was with an IFR rated pilot who was acting as PIC there's nothing wrong with him logging PIC in actual.
 
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