CFI pay structure fairness?

I think it really depends on where you live. Different markets dictate different rates. I was paying $60 plus plane and then went out and bought my own plane. My instructor still charges me the $60 but now he flies his plane to my airport and gives me instruction in my own plane. He's a great instructor that I have 100% confidence in so it's worth it to me. I have also connected with another CFI that only charges me $50/ hr and I now have two great CFI's with different styles and I feel I'm getting a more rounded education. I'm almost done with instruction and feel I got a great education from two CFI's. That's priceless in the confidence column.
 
mondtster said:
You reinforced my point. Much of the country is “in the sticks” and people want flight instructors there too. Given the current environment it is harder to fill those jobs but I’m not seeing a lack of instructors willing to work for $20 or less locally.
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Your logic if flawed. The airplanes are primarily in urban areas, not the sticks. If you are finding CFIs will to work for you outside a club for $20 that is great for you, but not what is occurring in most the country.
 
Walboy said:
Teaching someone to fly a single engine piston airplane is not that difficult. The pay reflects it. The wide variation in hourly rates largely reflects the cost of living in different areas. More experienced instructors are likely to be more efficient and can charge more but there is an upper limit.

Leaning to fly is a different matter. A student needs to have; time, money, motivation, and aptitude. If any of those are missing, then the student is unlikely to finish. Sure, there are bad instructors, but flight instructors at the basic general aviation level are pretty much a commodity which @BlueDream has basically pointed out in his post above.
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A job's pay is not determined by its difficulty. :rolleyes:
 
As long as CFIs are desperate to build hours they will work for whatever is offered. If CFIs stood their ground and don’t take these $20/hr job, the overall pay would go up. I am a part time CFI that has a nice solid career outside of aviation, if I am not getting proper pay, I don’t instruct. The school I work with charges $60, I get $40.
 
Walboy said:
Teaching someone to fly a single engine piston airplane is not that difficult. The pay reflects it. The wide variation in hourly rates largely reflects the cost of living in different areas. More experienced instructors are likely to be more efficient and can charge more but there is an upper limit.

Leaning to fly is a different matter. A student needs to have; time, money, motivation, and aptitude. If any of those are missing, then the student is unlikely to finish. Sure, there are bad instructors, but flight instructors at the basic general aviation level are pretty much a commodity which @BlueDream has basically pointed out in his post above.
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Depends,

Doing a bad job of it and watching the Hobbs tick is easy.

Helping form a good airman is another matter
 
EppyGA said:
This would be a good exercise for the OP. Go put together a business plan for a flight school. Find out what office space on the airport proper is going to cost, cost of insurance, costs of airplanes (owned, leased or leaseback), cost of fuel 100 hour inspections, salary for yourself as the owner, then figure out how many hours you might expect to book a month and see what hourly rates you'll need to charge to get the overhead you need to make all of those payments. Cost of office space needs to include electric, water, internet, etc. I'm sure I've left some stuff and others can fill in the list. You might learn a lot.
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All of this. And then on top of that ask yourself how much profit do you think you have to project that you are likely to make on that business in order for it to be worth it to sign the personal guarantee of the bank loan and thereby take the risk that your marketing plan missed something.
 
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Of course it's fair. It's mostly a free market transaction between a willing buyer and a willing seller. aka a fair market transaction.
 
TommyG said:
As long as CFIs are desperate to build hours they will work for whatever is offered. If CFIs stood their ground and don’t take these $20/hr job, the overall pay would go up. I am a part time CFI that has a nice solid career outside of aviation, if I am not getting proper pay, I don’t instruct. The school I work with charges $60, I get $40.
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How would that young CFI trying to catch the job train at the 1500hr stop benefit from insisting on that $20 wage ? For him, the max number of in-plane hours is what counts. No ground school obligations, no marketing efforts. For lunch, hand him a slim-jim and a coke through the little sliding window. Different priorities. There are probably few independent or boutique CFIs who can rival the hours/month racked up at a busy 141 contract flight school.
 
My wife had a consignment business for a while. She priced her wares about 3X their costs to compensate for labor and material to freshen them up. I figure my employer expects 3X my wage in income. So a CFI getting a fraction of the billing rate is in expected.

As others have said it’s up to the CFI and FBO to agree on pay. The joke is What’s the difference between a CFI and a large pizza? A large pizza can feed a family of four!
 
Nobody forces an instructor to take the job, or stay at it once they start. If they feel their being paid too little, either don't take it, or quit if already there.
 
weilke said:
How would that young CFI trying to catch the job train at the 1500hr stop benefit from insisting on that $20 wage ? For him, the max number of in-plane hours is what counts. No ground school obligations, no marketing efforts. For lunch, hand him a slim-jim and a coke through the little sliding window. Different priorities. There are probably few independent or boutique CFIs who can rival the hours/month racked up at a busy 141 contract flight school.
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if all CFIs stuck together and wouldn’t work for peanuts, the pay would change. But just like years ago when regionals wanted 250 multi, CFIs would screw each other over and basically work for free just to get multi hours. I have found many CFIs have any dignity when it comes to getting hours, even putting in BS hours in the logbook.
 
Maybe clip4 should start a union. I mean, paying dues will surely help them make more money. At least clip4 will make more money anyway.
 
Salty said:
Maybe clip4 should start a union. I mean, paying dues will surely help them make more money. At least clip4 will make more money anyway.
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Should I send you a membership card Salty? Never mind, we only take full time professionals who are employed as a CFI.
 
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Huh. Well, upvote flying clubs again. Our instructors get $35/hr, or did they just raise it to $40? 100% goes to them because you pay it directly.
 
Clip4 said:
Edit: Here is some 2016 figures. Pretty sure the wages are higher today.

http://www.fsana.com/news-2016-fsana-flight-instructor-compensation-survey
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Agreed. The market has changed dramatically since 2016.

I also find it interesting, even given it was 3 years ago, that while the highest percentage of FBO and Academy CFIs make $21-30, that amount is also the most common for independent CFIs. It's a far smaller percentage for the independents, but it's still the most common amount. Since FBOs and Academies take a cut and still pay the CFIs $21-30, this means that the independents are most likely charging less than they could. From the text of the article, "it can be inferred that most operators pay instructors approximately $20 per hour less than they charge customers" which means the independents should be able to charge $41-50 based on what the market will bear.

When I was working at a local flight school (up until 2015) they were charging $40 and paying $25 - so right in line with the survey. When I left the local flight school and started on my own, not really knowing how much to charge, I initially set my rate not at what the FBO had been paying me, but at what the customers had been paying the FBO, since obviously the market could bear that amount. I have since increased it, but even then, $21-30 an hour would not have been enough to make it worthwhile for me. Not that I don't like flying and teaching, but I also like my family.
 
In general I would point at the simple business reality here -- flight schools need to make money. They have overhead, marketing expenses, liability. That and many other related reasons explain why they charge what they do, and pay what the do. The market seems to bear all of that, so it's probably about right.

Independents can charge any amount they like. It just depends on what the market will pay. Same situation - overhead, liability, marketing. Although the per hour charge is more, the volume is often less. Might be a plus or minus depending on the individual situation.
 
bflynn said:
Huh. Well, upvote flying clubs again. Our instructors get $35/hr, or did they just raise it to $40? 100% goes to them because you pay it directly.
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So $35 or $40 an hour is better than he OP’s $40 an hour?
 
bflynn said:
Huh. Well, upvote flying clubs again. Our instructors get $35/hr, or did they just raise it to $40? 100% goes to them because you pay it directly.
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That’s a deal for your members. A CFI instructing 100 hours a year, the liability insurance costs them $6-8 an hour and self employment taxes cost them another $6.
 
I'm pretty sure some of our instructors are flying close to 100 hours a month, but I'm sure they don't go over 100. I have no idea what their costs are but I did verify that it's still $35/hour.

I don't think the OP's instructors are putting $40/hour in their pocket, I think that was a hypothetical explaining that they make less than what the flight school bills them at. I get the same thing, I'm billed at about 2 times my cost including benefits.
 
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