CFI. How do you show a student the shelf, not the number?

[Ncm722]

I fly in the Bay Area, under the SFO Class B shelves. I can read the floor off the sectional. I still don't think a student sees the shape from that number.
If you teach under a shelf, what do you actually do on that lesson? Draw it, fly it, or make them recite the floor until it sticks?
The version I keep wanting is to sit on the runway, look at the shape, then go fly the same picture. I have not found a clean way to do the first half in the briefing room.
In the CFI Discussion Group, post this only after they let you in. That group is instructors only, and it bans anything that reads like a product.

 

[RussR]

There are 3D visualization websites out there, not sure of any off the top of my head. Someone will be along with examples shortly.

Or do what I did back in the day, make a cardboard cutout. Way easier for C than B, but it could be done.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I taught at APA, under the DEN shelf. The common practice areas were southeast and southwest. The general concepts were from the standard FAA materials and charts. For practical operation - on every single flight, there wasn't "that lesson" - we taught the ground references for where the shelf rose from 8,000 to 9,000 to gone outbound. It wasn't that complicated.

 

[flyingron]

Years ago my wife bought me one of these plastic scale models of the Tri-area (DC) class B. It was scaled to sit on top of a sectional, and it lived in our living room for some time.

 

[Flyhound]

Here's a 3-D visualization of the SF Class B airspace. I found this online quickly and easily.

SF Class B 3-D model

 

[Lindberg]

I fly in the Bay Area, under the SFO Class B shelves. I can read the floor off the sectional. I still don't think a student sees the shape from that number.
If you teach under a shelf, what do you actually do on that lesson? Draw it, fly it, or make them recite the floor until it sticks?
The version I keep wanting is to sit on the runway, look at the shape, then go fly the same picture. I have not found a clean way to do the first half in the briefing room.
In the CFI Discussion Group, post this only after they let you in. That group is instructors only, and it bans anything that reads like a product.

I think you're supposed to delete the instructions before posting the AI-generated question.

Assuming you're actually a confused human and not just an AI bot, which lesson are you referring to?

And what do you mean that you haven't found a clean way to look at the shape in the briefing room? It seems much more appropriate to teach the chart in the briefing room rather than while sitting on the runway.

I've always taught airspace in the classroom with a whiteboard and then point to a spot on the sectional and ask what airspace I'd be in there at X,000'. The pre-solo written has questions that test understanding, like, "What airspace are you in when you're in the pattern," "Can we practice touch and goes if the ceiling is 1,200', etc."

 

[sarangan]

I fly in the Bay Area, under the SFO Class B shelves. I can read the floor off the sectional. I still don't think a student sees the shape from that number.
If you teach under a shelf, what do you actually do on that lesson? Draw it, fly it, or make them recite the floor until it sticks?
The version I keep wanting is to sit on the runway, look at the shape, then go fly the same picture. I have not found a clean way to do the first half in the briefing room.
In the CFI Discussion Group, post this only after they let you in. That group is instructors only, and it bans anything that reads like a product.

It isn't clear what exactly you are asking for. Just stay below the published class B shelf (or above the top ceiling). The hardest part might be locating where those numbers are for the sector you are in. I've flown in SFO area, and there are many oddly shaped cutouts that makes reading a bit difficult in a bouncy cockpit. And in a recent release of the VFR chart, the airway colors were nearly identical to the bravo lines, which made things more confusing.

 

[dmspilot]

If you teach under a shelf, what do you actually do on that lesson? Draw it, fly it, or make them recite the floor until it sticks?

Explain it using words and diagrams.

The version I keep wanting is to sit on the runway, look at the shape, then go fly the same picture.

Huh? There might be a reason your students are confused. I don't even understand what you're trying to say.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Huh? There might be a reason your students are confused. I don't even understand what you're trying to say.

Kinda seems to me he’s considering teaching pilotage.

 

[luvflyin]

I fly in the Bay Area, under the SFO Class B shelves. I can read the floor off the sectional. I still don't think a student sees the shape from that number.
If you teach under a shelf, what do you actually do on that lesson? Draw it, fly it, or make them recite the floor until it sticks?
The version I keep wanting is to sit on the runway, look at the shape, then go fly the same picture. I have not found a clean way to do the first half in the briefing room.
In the CFI Discussion Group, post this only after they let you in. That group is instructors only, and it bans anything that reads like a product.

This is going to sound harsh, but. It they can’t visualize it in their minds eye, I think they should consider a different hobby.

 

[JOhnH]

The way I learned it, and it made sense and stuck is that it resembles an upside down wedding cake. Of course Bravo is more complicated than Charlie, but once you get the general idea, it isn't hard to expand it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The way I learned it, and it made sense and stuck is that it resembles an upside down wedding cake. Of course Bravo is more complicated than Charlie, but once you get the general idea, it isn't hard to expand it.

I may have misunderstood, but it sounded like @Ncm722 was talking about training under a specific Bravo shelf (in this case SFO) rather than a generic upside down wedding cake. Stealing @Flyhound's AI generated diagram, I've never seen a wedding cake that looks like that! (Each color represents a different floor/ceiling combo)

 

[MauleSkinner]

I may have misunderstood, but it sounded like @Ncm722 was talking about training under a specific Bravo shelf (in this case SFO) rather than a generic upside down wedding cake. Stealing @Flyhound's AI generated diagram, I've never seen a wedding cake that looks like that! (Each color represents a different floor/ceiling combo)

View attachment 155872

That’s what the wedding cake looks like between when the groom pushes the bride’s face into the cake and the annulment.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That’s what the wedding cake looks like between when the groom pushes the bride’s face into the cake and the annulment.

I was trying to think of a good way of describing it, but, other than "mish mash," that definitely works.

 

[brcase]

Seems like creating a 3d model to be printed with a 3d printer might be useful especially for a specific airspace.
I like the idea of creating it to scale to sit on a sectional chart.
Seems like an AI agent might even create the model pretty well.
A color 3d printer might make it even more clear.

Brian

here is what Claude gave me for a 3d printable Class C Airspace for Boise

 

[Clip4]

I suppose you could wait on a day with a ceiling the same AGL as the shelf as you fly under it if the student is that clueless.

 

[M20K]

And what do you mean that you haven't found a clean way to look at the shape in the briefing room?

I did a double take on that as well. I sure do remember a pretty basic diagram that's been out there since the "Class" airspace were first being discusses as coming in the future.

 

[brcase]

liked the 3d model idea have had Claude working on it a bit more for. this isn't all of it but it did a pretty impressive job. for Class C and Class G. Even Got the Restricted (Barely visible in back)
3d printer is going to be running for next few days.

 

[Albany Tom]

Assuming they are average height, I think it would be fun to take one of the conference rooms at your closest FBO, and lower the suspended ceiling to a height of about 5'. Then pile up a bunch of cinder blocks in one corner going up about 2' or so. Then have a meeting in that room seated at a table, and say, this is kinda what we're flying under. Don't hit your head and it's easier to do over there.

I'm only partially kidding. We have a lot of traffic here in the NE, but only weird B's near NYC and Boston. Albany C is just like an upside down cake.

 

[GeorgeC]

In the CFI Discussion Group, post this only after they let you in. That group is instructors only, and it bans anything that reads like a product.

Wait for the sign, then all prisoners will be released!

 

[Lindberg]

Interestingly, the OP has been back but hasn't responded to any of the answers or questions in his thread.