Centerline trouble Help!

[Mtns2Skies]

I just flew today and I was practicing touch and goes at Trenton Mercer and I am having major trouble staying on the centerline of the runway during landing, Takeoff roll, Takeoff, and departure leg are all places I have trouble, I think most of my problem is from keeping my eyes fixed on the instrument panel. Any suggestions or criticism would be much appreciated. Please post anything that you think will help!

 

[Steve]

Two suggestions I was given during training.

1) Before touchdown look as far down the runway as possible.

2) before lift off and after touchdown keep your right knee over the painted stripe.

 

[dmccormack]

I just flew today and I was practicing touch and goes at Trenton Mercer and I am having major trouble staying on the centerline of the runway during landing, Takeoff roll, Takeoff, and departure leg are all places I have trouble, I think most of my problem is from keeping my eyes fixed on the instrument panel. Any suggestions or criticism would be much appreciated. Please post anything that you think will help!

Why are you looking at the panel? Really -- the only time you should look at the panel is a glance to confirm all engine gauges are in the green, airspeed is alive, and then back outside.

Are you practicing on MS Flight Sim?

If so, this is one of the bad habits people carry over who spend alot of time in a sim.

My advice for simmers is to ignore t/o and landing -- you can practice pattern work flying 50' above the runway, but t/o and landing in the sim will inculcate some bad habits.

 

[CJones]

I just flew today and I was practicing touch and goes at Trenton Mercer and I am having major trouble staying on the centerline of the runway during landing, Takeoff roll, Takeoff, and departure leg are all places I have trouble, I think most of my problem is from keeping my eyes fixed on the instrument panel. Any suggestions or criticism would be much appreciated. Please post anything that you think will help!

Don't focus too much on the panel! There. Problem solved.

Seriously though, make yourself keep your eyes outside. You really shouldn't be focused on anything in the instrument panel at the times you mentioned anyway. Other than a glance at the airspeed every once in a while, you should be focusing down the runway - make sure you're not focusing 4-5' in front of the plane - focus mid-field or farther down the runway. That'll help prevent over correcting. If you really want to "force" yourself not to focus inside -- use something to cover up the instruments (might wanna have a CFI or another pilot with you). Cover up the AI, DG, etc. and only leave the airspeed visible. Other than having the 'ball' visible when airborn and altimeter to check your pattern altitude, you should be able to land visually with nothing more than airspeed indicator. Eventually, you'll be able to do it without 'having' to look at the a/s either.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

yeah I do play fsx or used to before I started flying

 

[dmccormack]

yeah I do play fsx or used to before I started flying

OK.. it can be useful to practice some elements after solo. Until then you don't want to confuse your muscle memory with similar, yet very different, skillsets.

 

[Bob Noel]

Ask your instructor to take to an airport with narrower runways.
My instrument instructor was frustrated by my tendancy to land
left of centerline. He took me to an airport with a 26' wide runway
where I proved that I could land on the centerline (when I wanted to...)

(and, as others have mentioned, look outside, not at the panel)

 

[Mtns2Skies]

the landing I dont have so much trouble with its the departure leg that gets ugly

 

[rottydaddy]

I had an instructor who unfolded a sectional and used it to cover the entire panel for most of one lesson (he peeked at temp&pressure occasionally, but wouldn't let me see anything)... I flew much better after that.

 

[Ted]

1) Stop looking at the instrument panel. You don't need it for landing (or for most other operations, at least not in VFR).

2) Practice. Keeping on the centerline is a problem at first for a lot of students, I know it was for me. You have 6 hours (by now 7-8?). You're not expected to be perfect at it. What you're practicing is the understanding that the plane is under your control, so you make it do what you want it to. It will get better with time. After I was allowed to go out and do unsupervised solos, I was still not as good at this as I wanted to be, so I'd just go out and sometimes do 10 touch and gos in one sitting just to work on it and get better.

3) Go to an airport with a narrower runway. Narrower runways force you to be more precise on your landings. It certainly helped me to go to some of these narrow paved strips.

Don't panic, and don't expect you're going to be perfect at this the first time. Continue practicing and you will improve. Considering the amount of time you have before you can take your checkride, you have lots of time to get good.

 

[mjburian]

The only way I could stay on centerline was to be told to keep the centerline between my legs. Admittedly, this probably puts the nosewheel just a bit right of centerline, but it's an easy "trick" to get *much* closer than I was early on.

Here is a discussion about why this works:

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#10

 

[Ted]

I had an instructor who unfolded a sectional and used it to cover the entire panel for most of one lesson (he peeked at temp&pressure occasionally, but wouldn't let me see anything)... I flew much better after that.

Now THAT is a good idea!

I had a friend do something similar. I was just after my first solo, and we went flying. He let me fly left seat, and he noticed a big problem I had was that I would fixate on the altimeter and end up going up and down too much.

So, he whipped out his suction cup and covered the altimeter and said "Just look out the window." 20 minutes of flying later we'd changed altitude 20 feet, and the ride was a lot smoother.

VISUAL flight! Know how the instruments work and what they do, but look out the window. They are only for reference at this point.

 

[KennyFlys]

As said in another thread...

Rarely a day goes by while watching a student taxi off the runway and I don't say "Eyes outside while moving, you can worry about that after you clear the runway and stop." as they start reaching for flaps or whatever.

I really think Flight Simulator is a useful tool when one begins working on their instrument rating. But, I also think it sets in some bad habits when one doesn't even have a private ticket and particularly when they have no true concept of flying by visual reference to the "big attitude indicator" (Earth's Horizon).

Eyes outside... always. You're a VFR pilot.

 

[AuntPeggy]

And my instructor bought a big black bath towel and draped it over the glare shield so that I couldn't see any instruments. Then he instructed me to do 10 touch and goes.

 

[flyersfan31]

Look at the END of the runway. The FAR end of the runway. Otherwise, it looks like you're going WAY TOO FAST!!! Makes it easier to make centerline corrections too.

Talk to your instructor. Ask why you're not nailing the centerline. Get his/her feedback, and let CFI know you're concerned about it.

 

[pgengler]

I think that trying a narrower runway might be helpful. If you're flying at TTN, maybe try Central Jersey (47N). It's a 50' wide runway, compared to the 150' at Trenton, and to me it feels really narrow (more so than the other airports I've done some landings at, including Solberg, which is also 50', according to Airnav).

 

[taters]

Make that centerline come right at your face the whole time, look at the runway as a whole object, if you are truly lined up with it both sides should equally mirror each other, this will come in handy when you are landing and there is no centerline to look at..aka night..unimproved runways...good luck this is a pretty common thing when learning to land..you will push through it!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I think that trying a narrower runway might be helpful. If you're flying at TTN, maybe try Central Jersey (47N). It's a 50' wide runway, compared to the 150' at Trenton, and to me it feels really narrow (more so than the other airports I've done some landings at, including Solberg, which is also 50', according to Airnav).

Well we just went up there mainly so I could get practice with an ATC but my home airport N14 does have a thinner runway

ANY SUGGESTION for AFTER TAKEOFF that is where I have the most trouble staying lined up with the runway AFTER I took off and most of the departure leg.

 

[Clark1961]

On departure just like landing, looking out the window is good. The nose high attitude changes things a bit though. Ya know about what the ground track should be so make it happen by looking ahead and to the sides. It also doesn't hurt to glance at the DG just to be sure. Note that I said glance, not stare. You'll get a feel for how much rudder it takes pretty quick and after that it's just adjustment for wind.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Well we just went up there mainly so I could get practice with an ATC but my home airport N14 does have a thinner runway

ANY SUGGESTION for AFTER TAKEOFF that is where I have the most trouble staying lined up with the runway AFTER I took off and most of the departure leg.

Rudder. I'm not sure what aircraft you are flying, but my 172 with 180 hp engine requires rudder on takeoff to stay centered. Just enough to center the ball, then keep that same pressure. Let it off as you turn on crosswind and as you level off.

Ailerons. Be aware of the crosswind and increase aileron pressure to compensate as you take off, then ease it back out.

Line of sight. If there are clouds in the sky or if you can see the horizon, pick out a good target and keep it lined up.

Look down or look back. Never really worked for me, but others say it helps.

 

[EdFred]

Fly off grass runways!

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Rudder. I'm not sure what aircraft you are flying, but my 172 with 180 hp engine requires rudder on takeoff to stay centered. Just enough to center the ball, then keep that same pressure. Let it off as you turn on crosswind and as you level off.

Ailerons. Be aware of the crosswind and increase aileron pressure to compensate as you take off, then ease it back out.

Line of sight. If there are clouds in the sky or if you can see the horizon, pick out a good target and keep it lined up.

Look down or look back. Never really worked for me, but others say it helps.

Okay thanks, I fly the 152 it is 110 horse power and you only need very minute rudder on take off.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I just flew today and I was practicing touch and goes at Trenton Mercer and I am having major trouble staying on the centerline of the runway during landing, Takeoff roll, Takeoff, and departure leg are all places I have trouble, I think most of my problem is from keeping my eyes fixed on the instrument panel. Any suggestions or criticism would be much appreciated. Please post anything that you think will help!

The only instruments you ever need to look at at this point in your training are the airspeed indicator and the altimeter. It'll take a couple of minutes for you to get to pattern altitude so you don't need to look at the altimeter right away, and once you get stabilized in (and trimmed for) the climb, your airspeed should stay relatively constant on its own (if it doesn't, try letting go of the yoke and see what happens... If there's a significant pitch change, you were holding pressure on the controls and you weren't trimmed properly.)

That's the long way of saying look out the window.

After takeoff, it's not very important, IMHO, to be holding the runway centerline, especially once you're past the end of the runway. Keep your wings level and hold heading once you're climbing. If there's a crosswind, you should be holding aileron into the wind throughout the takeoff roll - Same pressure, less and less deflection as you accelerate. Your upwind wing will dip into the wind upon liftoff, and I generally find that having that wing dip followed by leveling off once I'm in the air ends up giving me roughly the crab angle I need to track the centerline. After that, I just hold heading (keep the wings level) and don't worry about the centerline - It's behind me.

As for landing, pretty much everyone has trouble landing left of centerline at some point, which I think is an artifact of trying to put the nosewheel on the centerline. Next time, try putting the centerline between your feet and having your body on the centerline, and you should find yourself right on the paint.

If you're landing both left and right of centerline, it may be a matter of your own tolerance, especially on wide runways. Don't let yourself land off the centerline, and you should do fine.

Hope this helps!

 

[kevin47881]

Very well stated Kent!

 

[midlifeflyer]

The only way I could stay on centerline was to be told to keep the centerline between my legs. Admittedly, this probably puts the nosewheel just a bit right of centerline,

It doesn't. It puts in right on the centerline. That's the point.

 

[dmccormack]

I just flew today and I was practicing touch and goes at Trenton Mercer and I am having major trouble staying on the centerline of the runway during landing, Takeoff roll, Takeoff, and departure leg are all places I have trouble, I think most of my problem is from keeping my eyes fixed on the instrument panel. Any suggestions or criticism would be much appreciated. Please post anything that you think will help!

Another consideration---

Touch and go has it's place, but not in early training. I prefer a long runway and stop and go in a small trainer. There's enough runway, it helps keep the takeoff separate from the landing, and teaches better habits (takeoff flow check, for example).

Touch and go compresses the time and often students are preparing for takeoff with the airplane rolling at 40 knots -- looking at trim, carb heat, etc.

Trenton-Mercer is long enough to allow a full stop landing, a reconfigure, and a takeoff in a 152. If the field is too busy, fly to a towered field where there is time.

 

[poadeleted20]

Touch and go has it's place, but not in early training. I prefer a long runway and stop and go in a small trainer. There's enough runway, it helps keep the takeoff separate from the landing, and teaches better habits (takeoff flow check, for example).

While this is an option, I prefer a full-stop/taxi-back to either T&G or S&G so you have the trainee's full attention while debriefing the landing (I taxi and talk, trainee listens). Another alternative is for the instructor to take the controls on the climbout so s/he can fly and talk while the trainee listens, and then give the controls back on crosswind or downwind.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

While this is an option, I prefer a full-stop/taxi-back to either T&G or S&G so you have the trainee's full attention while debriefing the landing (I taxi and talk, trainee listens). Another alternative is for the instructor to take the controls on the climbout so s/he can fly and talk while the trainee listens, and then give the controls back on crosswind or downwind.

I also enjoy full stop more

 

[dmccormack]

While this is an option, I prefer a full-stop/taxi-back to either T&G or S&G so you have the trainee's full attention while debriefing the landing (I taxi and talk, trainee listens). Another alternative is for the instructor to take the controls on the climbout so s/he can fly and talk while the trainee listens, and then give the controls back on crosswind or downwind.

Absolutely for early pattern work.

I also insist on taxi-back in complex airplanes.

No touch and Go in a Bonanza for me....

 

[2256Q]

It doesn't. It puts in right on the centerline. That's the point.

Not trying to be a smart-tail here, but I've been following this thread wondering what was going on. Only time I've ever had a problem tracking the centerline was on the few occasions I looked away from the runway. To me, it seems you just look at where you're going, just like in a car. That holds for landings as well as take-offs. Just look toward the end of the runway and shove the throttles. Again, not trying to upset anyone, just having a hard time understanding the problem.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not trying to be a smart-tail here, but I've been following this thread wondering what was going on. Only time I've ever had a problem tracking the centerline was on the few occasions I looked away from the runway. To me, it seems you just look at where you're going, just like in a car. That holds for landings as well as take-offs. Just look toward the end of the runway and shove the throttles. Again, not trying to upset anyone, just having a hard time understanding the problem.

You were lucky. For most, landing on the centerline does not come naturally. For you it obviously did. And you are right, you =do= stay in the middle in an aiprlane the exact same way you do in a car.

Nevertheless, a lot of new piltos (probably most) have a tendency to land left of centerline as they "overtry" to put the middle of the airplane on it.

And read some threads by folks beginning to work on their CFIs. Even after 250+ hours of flight time, many have the exact same problem in reverse when moving into the right seat.

 

[2256Q]

. Even after 250+ hours of flight time, many have the exact same problem in reverse when moving into the right seat.

You just named one of the very few things I dislike about flying - I hate flying from the right seat. I can do it, even manage a greaser every once in a while, but I sure don't like it!

 

[KennyFlys]

You just named one of the very few things I dislike about flying - I hate flying from the right seat. I can do it, even manage a greaser every once in a while, but I sure don't like it!

I still had problems when I first started teaching but it went away. The funny thing is I never even noticed the change. Suddenly, my landing demonstrations became rather normal and seemingly easier from the right seat.

 

[2256Q]

I still had problems when I first started teaching but it went away. The funny thing is I never even noticed the change. Suddenly, my landing demonstrations became rather normal and seemingly easier from the right seat.

Ken, guys like you are the heart and backbone of what we do. To teach others requires a patience I was never blessed with. Even when I owned my FBO, I hired instructors because it is not a gift I possess. Having the tolerance you do is probably instrumental in your being able to transition the way you did.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You just named one of the very few things I dislike about flying - I hate flying from the right seat. I can do it, even manage a greaser every once in a while, but I sure don't like it!

But it's just like driving a car in the UK!

I developed my realization about the centerline through the middle of the pilot technique during my transition to the right seat, so the biggest problem I ended up with was typified with my CFI saying, "No, the other throttle" every time I reduced power by pulling the mixture .

 

[brcase]

One thing I have noticed is that not landing on the center line seems to often comes from an illusion of what is straight. You may need to intentionally point the airplane a bit more right than what looks straight to keep it on the center line. This can also be noticed if the airplane drifts from the centerline after touch down.

I have also noticed that touching down pointed anything but exactly the direction you are going tends to make the landing seem firmer than it may really be. The airplane straightening itself out feels like a hard landing. Also if you can touch down left or right wheel 1st will usually make for a softer landing. (like a crosswind landing)

As for staying straight on the departure (upwind) leg of the pattern. Pick something about a mile from the airport and slightly to the left of center line (so you can see it) and then fly past it with it just on your right.

I also often cover up the instrument panel (including airspeed) for students that refuse to look out side enough.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have also noticed that touching down pointed anything but exactly the direction you are going tends to make the landing seem firmer than it may really be. The airplane straightening itself out feels like a hard landing. Also if you can touch down left or right wheel 1st will usually make for a softer landing. (like a crosswind landing)

These seem to be contradictory. Unless you have a crosswind, how are you going to land with one main wheel at a time without putting a side load on the gear?