Caveat emptor -- even in the boonies.

[RJM62]

I saw an interesting car for sale on the side of the road yesterday -- interesting mainly because it came with a snow plow. My winter car is starting to fall apart, so I've been passively looking for a replacement; and one with a snow plow would be a great find. I have a 110-foot, two-lane driveway.

I stopped, took a picture of the "For Sale" sign, and called the seller. He wanted $3,500.00 for the car, which is about the KBB value without the plow; so with the plow it would have been a great deal.

So this morning, I stuffed $3,500.00 in cash in my pocket and went to look at the car. The plow had a problem, it turned out: It goes up, but not down. But it's all-electric and the problem was probably just a bad relay, so I was willing to let that pass. Even if it was a motor problem, I could probably either fix it myself or replace the motor pretty inexpensively.

I also looked at the inspection sticker and found that it had just been inspected last week. So far, so good -- until I broke out my trusty OBD2 reader and plugged it in. No codes, but four "Not Readies." That means that either the codes were just cleared, or the battery had been disconnected for some reason (such as, for example, to clear the codes and extinguish the check engine light).

The "not readies" were for CAT, EVAP, EGR, and O2. CAT and EVAP take a while to get ready after being cleared because they require a specific set of operating conditions to be met for at least two trips, but the EGR and O2 being "not ready" told me that the codes had very recently been cleared. As in, say, this morning. The O2 and EGR tests usually get ready pretty quickly, typically within one or a few short trips.

I asked the seller who had done the inspection, and he gave me a name. I never heard of the guy, and I know every mechanic in town. Both of them. I knew that there was no way the car legitimately passed the emissions inspection in New York with four "not readies," regardless of what the sticker said. The only way that sticker could have been legal would have been if the inspector certified that the car had already eaten up more than $450.00 worth of repairs in unsuccessful attempts to clear the codes, at which time the inspector is allowed to issue a one-year waiver for the emissions-related items.

I also knew that without being able to read the OBD2 system, the car potentially had well over a thousand dollars worth of emissions-related problems.

Nonetheless, I could drive the car on the existing sticker for another 11 months while I diagnosed and fixed the problems. I'm capable of fixing any of them myself except for the CAT. (Actually, I could even do the CAT, but I hate working with torches underneath the car while it's sitting on jack stands, so I usually pay for other people to do exhaust system work.) So I decided to proceed with the test drive and offer him $2,500.00 for the car if there were no other problems.

I drove the car around town, up and down our hills, for quite a while. The engine, tranny, and clutch felt okay; but it needed at least one wheel bearing, and the steering felt funky. It felt like the steering knuckle was badly worn or the column or shaft slightly bent.

I mentioned this to the seller, and he said that his cousin was a mechanic and hadn't mentioned any of those things when he last checked the car. I asked what his cousin's name was. Turns out he was the same guy who had passed the car on its most recent inspection.

I finished the test drive and was now prepared to offer the seller $2,300 for the car, because in addition to the unknown emission problems, there was now a known wheel bearing problem and a steering problem I'd have to fix. I guesstimated that it would cost me about $200.00 for the parts.

The seller wasn't happy. No way would he sell the car for less than $3,000.00, he said. Very well. I thanked him for his time and we parted ways. I refrained from lecturing him about his dishonesty, but I did mention that the main reason for my low offer was that because the OBD2 system had recently been cleared, I couldn't get an accurate read on the condition of the emissions system.

I didn't come out and call him a con artist. There's no point in starting fights on the shoulder of a state highway. I'm pretty sure he got the message, though, because he didn't argue with me. He just kind of slunk away.

-Rich

 

[frfly172]

Imagine the poor guy that does buy it,without going over it completely. An inspection sticker is like a pencil annual,only as good as the person that does it.

 

[RJM62]

Imagine the poor guy that does buy it,without going over it completely. An inspection sticker is like a pencil annual,only as good as the person that does it.

That's true. But you know, if you're not knowledgeable enough about cars to do a good pre-buy inspection, then you should hire a mechanic or bring along a car-savvy friend to do one for you. There's only so much you can determine from a half-hour inspection and test drive, but quite often it's enough.

-Rich

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You'd have to bring a lift along. A lot goes on underneath. And if it says 4 sale, keep on going.

 

[docmirror]

Welcome to used car sales.

 

[Norman]

I'm sort of in the market for new (to me) wheels. I quit working on my truck about five years ago, but one question I always ask is if it's OK to take the car/truck to a shop for evaluation. Anything less than a yes answer finds me heading on down the road.

 

[MAKG1]

You could have resolved all those pending codes with a drive cycle. It's not hard to do that in the context of a test drive (but you do need to find a place to drive and coast at high speed).

But I would have stopped with the obviously recently-cleared codes, as that's a huge red flag. He might have gotten a $500 offer from me if the body was in good shape. No more, as it's essentially equivalent to a car that won't start. If he wants more, he has to show me a good self-test with no pending codes, no not-ready's and no MIL. I'll work more with honest people, but not someone who is obviously trying to rip off.

The scary thing is, when there are a whole bunch of codes like that, the culprits are generally either (1) some idiot disabled everything thinking he could do better, or (2) one of the grounds is shot. (1) can be expensive especially if he was stupid enough to rod out the cat. (2) usually isn't.

 

[us AAirways]

Another Saturn?

 

[cowman]

A couple of comments....

KBB value is inflated... often grossly. If you pay KBB value, you're overpaying IMO... completed listing on ebay are my go-to source for evaluating market value of a car.

To me, a snow plow lowers the value. Plow trucks get used and abused and usually only sold off when they've become to unreliable and/or costly to keep using. Maybe your market is different I don't know... but an old plow truck around here is often barely road safe...note I said safe... definitely not legal. They're often missing things like floors or brakes...

Dunno what to make of the codes but I can see why that would be a worry in a place where inspections are required. I've never had a vehicle inspected so I am pretty clueless in that department. Around here emissions related codes = nothing is wrong, just drive it.

 

[RJM62]

You could have resolved all those pending codes with a drive cycle. It's not hard to do that in the context of a test drive (but you do need to find a place to drive and coast at high speed).

But I would have stopped with the obviously recently-cleared codes, as that's a huge red flag. He might have gotten a $500 offer from me if the body was in good shape. No more, as it's essentially equivalent to a car that won't start. If he wants more, he has to show me a good self-test with no pending codes, no not-ready's and no MIL. I'll work more with honest people, but not someone who is obviously trying to rip off.

The scary thing is, when there are a whole bunch of codes like that, the culprits are generally either (1) some idiot disabled everything thinking he could do better, or (2) one of the grounds is shot. (1) can be expensive especially if he was stupid enough to rod out the cat. (2) usually isn't.

I chose not to do the drive cycle for the reason you said. If the guy was trying to hide something, there really was no point in proceeding. I have a perfect stretch of road for drive cycles.

Over the phone, the seller had told me that he'd had a code for "the exhaust" before the inspection, but that his cousin had "cleared it up." It's possible that his cousin was the guilty party and that this guy just had no idea about how these systems work. I find that doubtful because he also said he buys and sells a lot of cars, but I guess it's possible.

Whatever the case, I won't buy a car with unknown emissions problems unless I can narrow them down to a reasonable set of possibilities that I'm willing to fix, and adjust the price accordingly. And even then, the seller has to be honest about it.

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

Another Saturn?

Nope. A Chevy.

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

A couple of comments....

KBB value is inflated... often grossly. If you pay KBB value, you're overpaying IMO... completed listing on ebay are my go-to source for evaluating market value of a car.

To me, a snow plow lowers the value. Plow trucks get used and abused and usually only sold off when they've become to unreliable and/or costly to keep using. Maybe your market is different I don't know... but an old plow truck around here is often barely road safe...note I said safe... definitely not legal. They're often missing things like floors or brakes...

Dunno what to make of the codes but I can see why that would be a worry in a place where inspections are required. I've never had a vehicle inspected so I am pretty clueless in that department. Around here emissions related codes = nothing is wrong, just drive it.

The seller claimed he only used the plow to plow his own driveway and his neighbor's. Whether he was telling the truth, I have no idea.

The mileage seemed low for the age of the car, but lots of people here (including myself) have summer cars and winter cars; so by itself, the low mileage isn't an indictment.

There were no codes. There were "not readies." Each subsystem of the OBD2 system has operational requirements before it can report after the codes have been manually cleared or the battery has been disconnected. In other words, the car has to do certain things before the subsystem can run its checks. Typically, the CAT and EVAP systems have the most complex requirements. Other systems like the secondary air pump, EGR, and O2 sensors have simpler requirements and often become ready when the engine is first started or after (or even during) one or two short trips.

The exact requirements before the CAT and EVAP systems can report vary, but they typically involve at least two trips, from cold starts. There also must be a certain cumulative combination of acceleration events, deceleration events, times spent at various speeds, as well as the engine and transmission achieving normal operating temperature. There may also be other requirements, depending on the make, model, and year. All of these events allow certain tests to run which the OBD2 system evaluates to determine whether the subsystems are functioning properly. If you try to read the codes before all the required events have occurred, the subsystem will report as "not ready."

There are "drive cycles" that are designed to squeeze as many of these requirements as possible into the minimum number of trips in order to get the systems ready to report as quickly as possible. These are carefully-designed trips that have to conducted pretty much to the letter. If you're lucky, two of these trips (or even one, if the car's made other, normal trips) may get all the subsystems ready. The GM drive cycle can be found here, just as an example.

-Rich

EDIT: The thing is, while the systems aren't ready, the check engine light will not illuminate. There are no codes yet, so the light stays out. So an old trick to sell a car with a CEL is to clear the codes or disconnect the battery before letting the buyer test drive the car, so the CEL will not be lit. But even the most inexpensive code reader can foil that plot by exposing the "not ready" subsystems.

 

[Norman]

"But even the most inexpensive code reader can foil that plot by exposing the "not ready" subsystems."

Good information to know. Thanks for posting that.

 

[RJM62]

"But even the most inexpensive code reader can foil that plot by exposing the "not ready" subsystems."

Good information to know. Thanks for posting that.

My pleasure.

I should also mention that sometimes a simple reader can save you money in the opposite situation. When you buy a car from an honest seller, and the CEL is lit, sometimes it's a simple problem that can be easily fixed; and sometimes (not always), the code itself provides enough information to pinpoint the problem.

For example, when I bought my Kia Sportage, the CEL was lit, and the seller just didn't want to deal with it. But the code revealed that it was just an O2 sensor -- a $50.00 part and a simple repair.

The car had no other significant problems that the seller knew of, and I detected none during my inspection and test drive, so I bought it for $1,850.00. That was about four years ago, and I'm still using it as my winter rat. I've put roughly 50K miles on it and it's needed very little other than ordinary maintenance, making it by far the best car purchase I've ever made in terms of cost per mile.

-Rich

 

[KRyan]

Rich,

Don’t know if this is an option for you or not, but here goes.

In Ohio, some counties require an emissions test, some don’t (mine doesn’t). When I lived in one of those counties, I had a friend who had an S-10 that he had converted from a four cylinder engine to a six cylinder. The emissions test was based on the VIN, so he was never going to pass the test, because the VIN was for the four cylinder engine.

In Ohio, they had (and may still have) a rule that if you had recently purchased the car, you got a “pass” on the emissions test – you didn’t have to perform the test until the next time you needed to renew your license stickers. When it was time for him to renew his stickers, he “sold” the car to his wife for $1. She went and transferred the title, got new plates & stickers and they could drive the car for another year. The next year, she sold it back to him, and the process continued.

So, if your married and want the car . . .

 

[RJM62]

Rich,

Don’t know if this is an option for you or not, but here goes.

In Ohio, some counties require an emissions test, some don’t (mine doesn’t). When I lived in one of those counties, I had a friend who had an S-10 that he had converted from a four cylinder engine to a six cylinder. The emissions test was based on the VIN, so he was never going to pass the test, because the VIN was for the four cylinder engine.

In Ohio, they had (and may still have) a rule that if you had recently purchased the car, you got a “pass” on the emissions test – you didn’t have to perform the test until the next time you needed to renew your license stickers. When it was time for him to renew his stickers, he “sold” the car to his wife for $1. She went and transferred the title, got new plates & stickers and they could drive the car for another year. The next year, she sold it back to him, and the process continued.

So, if your married and want the car . . .

Thanks, but I don't want the car badly enough to get married again...

Besides, the codes are not the problem. The problem is that I don't know what the codes are. He cleared them.

With 76,000 miles on the car, it's probably not the CAT. It's more likely something dopey like an O2 sensor, EGR valve, EVAP solenoid, a misfire due to worn-out plugs, or even a $5.00 PCV valve. It also could be something that just needs to be douched out with some solvent and would cost essentially nothing to fix. The problem is that I don't know because he cleared the codes.

The other problem is that knowing that he (or his cousin) attempted to conceal the code(s), I really can't trust the seller to be honest with me about any other problems the car might have.

-Rich

 

[Ghery]

In Ohio, they had (and may still have) a rule that if you had recently purchased the car, you got a “pass” on the emissions test – you didn’t have to perform the test until the next time you needed to renew your license stickers. When it was time for him to renew his stickers, he “sold” the car to his wife for $1. She went and transferred the title, got new plates & stickers and they could drive the car for another year. The next year, she sold it back to him, and the process continued.

So, if your married and want the car . . .

Sounds like how my dad and his brother never ran out of gas ration stamps during WW II. Dad loaned his brother the money to buy a motorcycle. His brother repaid the loan by giving Dad the motorcycle. When he re-registered it he got a new book of ration stamps. Ran out of stamps, gave his brother the motorcycle and guess what? New book of stamps. They had all the gas they wanted until Dad enlisted in the Navy and sold the motorcycle to someone else, who promptly wrapped it around a tree and killed himself. Oh, and Dad's brother went to law school after the war and became a lawyer. Figures.

 

[Doggtyred]

Thanks about the little bit about the not-readys... I'm actively looking for something in a similar price range for the girlfriend's high school kid.I need to dig my code reader out of the cabinet in the garage.

I don't have high hopes about cars in the $3000 price range but I do expect to be able to see what I'm getting into..

 

[RJM62]

Thanks about the little bit about the not-readys... I'm actively looking for something in a similar price range for the girlfriend's high school kid.I need to dig my code reader out of the cabinet in the garage.

I don't have high hopes about cars in the $3000 price range but I do expect to be able to see what I'm getting into..

I've found that older (early- to mid-2000s) Kias and Hyundais seem to lose their value much faster than they lose their usability. They're well-made cars, in my experience, and pretty easy to work on, too. If you're car-savvy and don't mind a few cosmetic dings, $3,000.00 to $4,000.00 can buy a pretty decent used car for a new driver from either of those manufacturers.

I'm actually thinking about a slightly newer Sportage to replace my current one as a winter car. The 2WD models are good in the snow, and the 4WD are outstanding. They're also cheap.

The other thing I'd throw in for the kid would be a AAA or similar membership. I plan to buy one for my goddaughter when she gets her license. She's getting her permit in a few days, and I'm actually looking forward to it. I haven't taught someone to drive in a long time.

-Rich

 

[denverpilot]

That plow out here would sell fine. No emissions tests required and no inspections.

 

[MAKG1]

There are lots of cars under $3000 if you don't care what it looks like.

My record was -$191 for a 1986 Bronco II. That's right, it cost the owner almost $200 to give it to me (cause he let the registration expire). That thing was incredibly ugly, but I squeezed another 150K miles out of it. The owner didn't want to be seen in it, and it was less hassle at the time to give it away than to junk it.

Even the 2000 Saturn SL2 was under $3000. The VW was $1300 (200K and counting), but I wouldn't recommend that to someone who wasn't real good at electrical troubleshooting.

 

[RJM62]

There are lots of cars under $3000 if you don't care what it looks like.

My record was -$191 for a 1986 Bronco II. That's right, it cost the owner almost $200 to give it to me (cause he let the registration expire). That thing was incredibly ugly, but I squeezed another 150K miles out of it. The owner didn't want to be seen in it, and it was less hassle at the time to give it away than to junk it.

Even the 2000 Saturn SL2 was under $3000. The VW was $1300 (200K and counting), but I wouldn't recommend that to someone who wasn't real good at electrical troubleshooting.

On Friday I purchased a loaded 2004 Hyundai Santa Fe in excellent mechanical condition for $2,700, and the seller even delivered it to me. That's about a 75-mile trip. Inspection and review of the maintenance records revealed that the car could use a front bumper cover and is due for the timing belt change, so I bargained it down from the ~ $3,400 kbb / asking price to $2,700. It also has the towing package, which I wanted for a number of reasons.

In the meantime, I put my 2000 Sportage up for sale using one of my legendary (or perhaps notorious) listings on CL (screenshot attached). It mentioned everything about the car that came to mind -- good and bad -- illustrated with 23 pictures. I've found that aside from being honest, long, thorough ads like that really thin the herd to serious buyers who are a good fit.

I asked $1,250 and sold it for $1,000 two days later to the first person who actually came to look at the car. He's very knowledgeable about things mechanical and doesn't give a rat's about how the car looks, so he's a good fit. He'll get his money's worth out of her, and she gets to live on and avoid the scrapyard for a while longer.

Now mind you, I bought the Sportage for $1,850, four years ago. I doubt that I spent more than $600 on it in parts for other than ordinary maintenance items in all the time I owned it. Then I sold it for a grand yesterday. That's not a bad deal for four years and ~ 75,000 miles of driving.

-Rich

 

[bluerooster]

You could have resolved all those pending codes with a drive cycle. It's not hard to do that in the context of a test drive (but you do need to find a place to drive and coast at high speed).

But I would have stopped with the obviously recently-cleared codes, as that's a huge red flag. He might have gotten a $500 offer from me if the body was in good shape. No more, as it's essentially equivalent to a car that won't start. If he wants more, he has to show me a good self-test with no pending codes, no not-ready's and no MIL. I'll work more with honest people, but not someone who is obviously trying to rip off.

The scary thing is, when there are a whole bunch of codes like that, the culprits are generally either (1) some idiot disabled everything thinking he could do better, or (2) one of the grounds is shot. (1) can be expensive especially if he was stupid enough to rod out the cat. (2) usually isn't.

That, or rotten/leaking vacuum hoses.
Bought an S500 with CEL on. real cheap. Changed the old gas, fuel filter, and leaky vacuum hoses. put the light out, and drove it for about 10k miles, untill someone else just had to have that car, and wouldn't take no for an answer.

 

[jaybee]

The thing is, while the systems aren't ready, the check engine light will not illuminate - for that system

Edited for technicality.

Just a thought because I'm a retired auto mechanic, if I trouble shot a car for a misfire code, replaced the plug wires and test drove it around the block after clearing the code it is very likely I did not complete a drive cycle. So point to consider is, they were not necessarily dishonest - just a flat rate mechanic at best or lazy at worst. Just something to think about.

 

[Ted]

Emissions checks are a real pain. I've been fighting my BMW 740iL to get rid of a CEL due to fuel trim, which can be caused by a billion things, and probably is caused by all of them.

 

[MAKG1]

Emissions checks are a real pain. I've been fighting my BMW 740iL to get rid of a CEL due to fuel trim, which can be caused by a billion things, and probably is caused by all of them.

Almost certainly not more than one or two, unless you have neglected problems for a long time.

But you do need a diagnostician who understands the code scanner is not the end of the line. Those are becoming quite rare.

If the fuel trim is full rich, either the computer thinks there is more oxygen than there is, or it is unable to control the oxygen. Telling the difference is a <30 minute job counting the coffee break (you can see the difference in the spark plugs). And that determination eliminates a whole lot of possibilities either way.

 

[docmirror]

Emissions checks are a real pain. I've been fighting my BMW 740iL to get rid of a CEL due to fuel trim, which can be caused by a billion things, and probably is caused by all of them.

I went through this with a VW GTI. It was a nachtmar of biblical proportion. I got a tool called the VAG. It allows access to all the fuel trim parameters. It is NOT user friendly as the manual implies, but after about 10 hours of fighting with the various trim settings I finally got it to pass TX emissions.

http://www.vag-info.com/category/preview/BMW


After that, the car ran moderately well, and for a few years it provided transportation. But, the cat eventually got weak, and I couldn't find a cheap alternative, so I bought a bung extender for the after-cat O2 sensor and that fixed that code.

I would strongly suggest you start with all the vacuum lines, and hoses in the entire intake suite. It's hours of work to route them all around but after replacing all the vac lines, and pressurizing the whole thing to test, that solved a bunch of various fuel metering codes. These codes don't show up on the generic ODB-II or CAN bus tools from Walmart. You need the VAG software, and their custom cable to read all the fuel trim and various valve/cam settings.

<edit: I just looked back at the price for that software tool, that's not what I bought. Mine was $199 or something, but now I can't find the link.>

 

[MAKG1]

Usually when someone complains of an insolvable code, it means the problem is something really basic. Vacuum lines are an example. Poor grounds, fouled plugs, misfiring ignition, blown fuel pressure regulator, cracked or leaky exhaust, poor engine condition (valves or rings), even a plugged fuel or air filter or leaky PCV can also explain it.

It means going old-school and actually diagnosing, rather than just doing what the computer says. VAG or no VAG. The scanner can be a good starting point, but the root of the problem is presuming that a computer tool can tell you everything.

The cat getting "weak" is a symptom of uncorrected fuel trim. I've never worn one out, and most of my vehicles last in the neighborhood of 300,000 miles.

 

[docmirror]

Well, I hate to be the rube who can't solve a basic problem. Here are the stats on VW-Vortex for the GTI/Audi turbo engine:

1.8T Engine Forum
Discussion forum for the 20-valve 1.8 liter turbocharged 4-cylinder engine found in the Audi A3, S3, A4, Golf/Jetta MkIV, New Beetle, Passat, TT, etc.
View this forum's RSS feed
Subscribe to This Forum
Threads: 142,639
Posts: 1,609,180
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More threads than any other tech forum by far. More posts than any other forum by a long shot. I guess it's not so basic as it first looks. Having owned 2 of them, it's not your grampa's Lycosaurus.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, I hate to be the rube who can't solve a basic problem. Here are the stats on VW-Vortex for the GTI/Audi turbo engine:

1.8T Engine Forum
Discussion forum for the 20-valve 1.8 liter turbocharged 4-cylinder engine found in the Audi A3, S3, A4, Golf/Jetta MkIV, New Beetle, Passat, TT, etc.
View this forum's RSS feed
Subscribe to This Forum
Threads: 142,639
Posts: 1,609,180
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More threads than any other tech forum by far. More posts than any other forum by a long shot. I guess it's not so basic as it first looks. Having owned 2 of them, it's not your grampa's Lycosaurus.

What am I supposed to learn from that? That 1.8T owners are particularly bad at troubleshooting?

I own a VW as well. It has no self tests at all, but it's fuel injected anyway. No alternative but to actually diagnose. Check inputs, check processing, check outputs/results. Standard computer diagnosis.

 

[Ted]

Almost certainly not more than one or two, unless you have neglected problems for a long time.

But you do need a diagnostician who understands the code scanner is not the end of the line. Those are becoming quite rare.

If the fuel trim is full rich, either the computer thinks there is more oxygen than there is, or it is unable to control the oxygen. Telling the difference is a <30 minute job counting the coffee break (you can see the difference in the spark plugs). And that determination eliminates a whole lot of possibilities either way.

I purchased the car from someone who had neglected it a long time. Plus, on BMWs, it seems that everything is engineered to fail at the same time.

 

[SkyHog]

God I love living somewhere where the hippies haven't forced emissions tests down our throats yet.

 

[Zeldman]

I love my 1970 Chevy pick up. I can fix it with a 9/16, 1/2 combination wrench, a flat and phillips screw driver, and slip joint pliers. 6 cylinder, 4 speed, no power anything. 4 wheel drum brakes which makes each stop an adventure in braking. I almost put a radio in it once. If it stops running, its either out of gas, or out of spark. Who remembers what points are?

Side note, I watched a TV show on classic cars the other day. The mechanic talked about how he makes over 100k (california) a year just setting points. Man, I used to do it for 3 bucks an hour back in the day.

 

[docmirror]

What am I supposed to learn from that? That 1.8T owners are particularly bad at troubleshooting?

I own a VW as well. It has no self tests at all, but it's fuel injected anyway. No alternative but to actually diagnose. Check inputs, check processing, check outputs/results. Standard computer diagnosis.

I don't know? What are you supposed to learn from that?

From my learning experience, back at least 10 years I would say that the owners and tuners of the 1.8T product are at least as capable as any random group of DIY people, perhaps even a bit better in most respects. I've also learned over the years that the engine is particularly finicky about fuel injection. Pretty much every 1.8T engine ever built throws the CEL regularly. Simple in theory, not so much in practice.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3999/3061/22496530001_large.jpg

One leak, even a small split hose anywhere in the system will toss the fuel trim out of calibration beyond closed loop adjustment range.

 

[Jaybird180]

You went through a thorough pre-buy; I would have been done with the OBD results. What about this car made you consider investing more time in the test drive, even if you had a thought of negotiating the price downward and you had a failure-to-object agreement at $2,500?

 

[MAKG1]

I don't know? What are you supposed to learn from that?

From my learning experience, back at least 10 years I would say that the owners and tuners of the 1.8T product are at least as capable as any random group of DIY people, perhaps even a bit better in most respects. I've also learned over the years that the engine is particularly finicky about fuel injection. Pretty much every 1.8T engine ever built throws the CEL regularly. Simple in theory, not so much in practice.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3999/3061/22496530001_large.jpg

One leak, even a small split hose anywhere in the system will toss the fuel trim out of calibration beyond closed loop adjustment range.

My experience with DIYers is that only a very few of them are any good at going beyond sticking the $35 code reader in the slot and buying the sensor in the title of the code.

Small vacuum leaks in just about any fuel injection system with an OBD self test will cause lean codes. And for most DIYers, that means a trip to the auto parts store to buy an oxygen sensor that won't fix the problem.

That vacuum system is nothing compared to a feedback carb. It's only slightly more than my non-turbo 8V cheap-a$$ 1.8L.

 

[RJM62]

You went through a thorough pre-buy; I would have been done with the OBD results. What about this car made you consider investing more time in the test drive, even if you had a thought of negotiating the price downward and you had a failure-to-object agreement at $2,500?

I've taken gambles before that worked out. Structurally the car was in good shape, and the engine seemed strong, so it was worth a shot. Besides, I'm not so terribly busy that I can't afford to take 20 minutes out of my schedule to test-drive a car. The seller had nothing in particular to do, either, so I decided to go for it.

The car's still sitting there, by the way, minus the plow now. That's nothing, though. There's one car not far from here that's had a "For Sale" sign on it for at least two years, ever since I moved here. The owner does move it around every so often, so I assume it runs. It's an old Mercedes. Looks to be in pretty good shape.

Another fellow down the hill from me has been trying to sell a riding mower for at least two years. He wants $750.00 for it. He just put a beautiful paint job on it a couple of weeks ago, too.

People are funny here. They get it in their heads that something is worth X-amount of money, and they won't budge from it. They'd rather have the car, tractor, mower, or whatever rusting away on the front lawn for years than sell it for less than they think it's worth.

-Rich

 

[RJM62]

My experience with DIYers is that only a very few of them are any good at going beyond sticking the $35 code reader in the slot and buying the sensor in the title of the code.

Small vacuum leaks in just about any fuel injection system with an OBD self test will cause lean codes. And for most DIYers, that means a trip to the auto parts store to buy an oxygen sensor that won't fix the problem.

That vacuum system is nothing compared to a feedback carb. It's only slightly more than my non-turbo 8V cheap-a$$ 1.8L.

Bad grounds are the other problem that most DIYers overlook. Whenever I see a whole mess of unrelated codes, the first things I look for are corroded battery cables and bad grounds.

-Rich

 

[Ted]

People are funny here. They get it in their heads that something is worth X-amount of money, and they won't budge from it. They'd rather have the car, tractor, mower, or whatever rusting away on the front lawn for years than sell it for less than they think it's worth.

-Rich

You must have lots of pilots up there!