Career Path (what to do next?)

[chrislyons5]

Hello fellow pilots, I am currently working as a jump pilot and building hours quick. I am already looking towards the next chapter and I was wondering if you had any advice on where I should go next. I am finishing up my multi-engine endorsement and would like to climb the ladder as quick as possible. I would like to find a job where quality of life is very high but I was hoping to make a decent living as well. Flight school was quite expensive for me and I would love to start paying off some of my student loans. I currently have 500 hours but I don't have a lot of cross country or night time. I am willing to re-locate and even work in another country. I was hoping to get some advice from pilots who have been in my shoes and learned from experience. Your input is very valuable to me and I appreciate any advice.
Chris Lyons C-ASEL

 

[James331]

Hello fellow pilots, I am currently working as a jump pilot and building hours quick. I am already looking towards the next chapter and I was wondering if you had any advice on where I should go next. I am finishing up my multi-engine endorsement and would like to climb the ladder as quick as possible. I would like to find a job where quality of life is very high but I was hoping to make a decent living as well. Flight school was quite expensive for me and I would love to start paying off some of my student loans. I currently have 500 hours but I don't have a lot of cross country or night time. I am willing to re-locate and even work in another country. I was hoping to get some advice from pilots who have been in my shoes and learned from experience. Your input is very valuable to me and I appreciate any advice.
Chris Lyons C-ASEL

Get into a DZ with a turbine and a twin turbine, get as many turbine and twin turbine hours as possible. That said it'll be hard for you to get into a turbine without 1000tt

At 500tt QOL is not going to be all the great for the most part.

From your last post it sound like you haven't even learned how to fly jumpers yet, maybe take this thing one step at a time.

 

[JHW]

To summarize: you've got student loans. Only SE time. Worried about quality of life. Want to make money. Thats a pretty tough recipe to cook with in an aviation kitchen.

As you suggested, When i was 19 i moved to another country. Actually i was more interested in a little redhead who lived there but the flying gig was the ticket. I made good money, because the quality of life was terrible. Fortunately i got that flying habit out of my system when i was young enough to start again at something better.

Given your goals I'd recommend you get out of your aviation whirlpool before you drown in debt. Get a good paying job that lets you pay off those loans. After digging out of the hole you can think about flying as a hobby.

 

[James331]

To summarize: you've got student loans. Only SE time. Worried about quality of life. Want to make money. Thats a pretty tough recipe to cook with in an aviation kitchen.

As you suggested, When i was 19 i moved to another country. Actually i was more interested in a little redhead who lived there but the flying gig was the ticket. I made good money, because the quality of life was terrible. Fortunately i got that flying habit out of my system when i was young enough to start again at something better.

Given your goals I'd recommend you get out of your aviation whirlpool before you drown in debt. Get a good paying job that lets you pay off those loans. After digging out of the hole you can think about flying as a hobby.

Hogwash

Just because you couldnt hack it in aviation doesn't mean no one can make it, many people enjoy aviation, fly for a career, love their job and make enough money to live the life they want. I do.

He needs to suck it up, get his hours up and move up the food chain.

 

[w_privett]

ahh yes, James strikes again. It's always amusing to see a beginner attacking someone they'll never equal in a lifetime of trying.

Mr Lyons, I'll not only echo Jeff's comments but add to them. It's time to lay out your business plan. As a pilot you are a contractor, you have costs, you have already incurred debt. How will you pay off that debt and produce income? In today's world you are a long, long way from any reasonable pay. You have unfortunately chosen an endeavor that people have always been willing to chase for no personal gain. You need to choose between your hobby (flying) and other gainful employment, or be prepared for the sacrifices that come with a hobby-job. The one of my children who is the most frustrated with his career choice, is the one who is a captain for Lufthansa. On the other hand my son-in-law the accountant, who has a citabria sitting in my shed, I believe has found the best balance of work, family, and aviation.

I will have been at this flying business for 57 years next week. It's the time of year I reflect on what my life might have been had I not seen the sign for a "flying sergeant" programme and instead continued in the infantry and then gone back to the farm. Today I have a box of logbooks with many 10's of thousands of hours recorded in them. Those books record the days of baby's first words and first steps, children graduating school, a wife becoming the victim of violence, a teen daughter taking her own life, another 2 daughters married, 2 sons married, university graduations, births of grandchildren. Those books record all the milestones of my life that I was not a part of because I was thousands of km away sitting in the front of an aluminum tube or mucking through an engine in a hangar. I salute those who "couldn't hack it". I wish I had been wise enough to do likewise when I was young.

 

[jordane93]

Make connections and network. You never know where your next job will come from. If possible, try to get your CFI. Every school needs CFIs and it's a good way to network and build hours.

 

[James331]

ahh yes, James strikes again. It's always amusing to see a beginner attacking someone they'll never equal in a lifetime of trying.

Mr Lyons, I'll not only echo Jeff's comments but add to them. It's time to lay out your business plan. As a pilot you are a contractor, you have costs, you have already incurred debt. How will you pay off that debt and produce income? In today's world you are a long, long way from any reasonable pay. You have unfortunately chosen an endeavor that people have always been willing to chase for no personal gain. You need to choose between your hobby (flying) and other gainful employment, or be prepared for the sacrifices that come with a hobby-job. The one of my children who is the most frustrated with his career choice, is the one who is a captain for Lufthansa. On the other hand my son-in-law the accountant, who has a citabria sitting in my shed, I believe has found the best balance of work, family, and aviation.

I will have been at this flying business for 57 years next week. It's the time of year I reflect on what my life might have been had I not seen the sign for a "flying sergeant" programme and instead continued in the infantry and then gone back to the farm. Today I have a box of logbooks with many 10's of thousands of hours recorded in them. Those books record the days of baby's first words and first steps, children graduating school, a wife becoming the victim of violence, a teen daughter taking her own life, another 2 daughters married, 2 sons married, university graduations, births of grandchildren. Those books record all the milestones of my life that I was not a part of because I was thousands of km away sitting in the front of an aluminum tube or mucking through an engine in a hangar. I salute those who "couldn't hack it". I wish I had been wise enough to do likewise when I was young.

Because you know me right?

Sorry you decided to go down a path where you were not around for your large family. Again these were decisions you made and have Z E R O bearing on aviation as a career.

I'm home everynight 98% of the time, paid well with plenty of time off.


There are plenty of people in other professions who made poor choices and wish they did not spend their entire life as a farmer, CPA, bar owner, cat wrangler, whatever.

Point is the OP only has 500hrs, he hasn't even broken into the industry yet, let him hit 1500 before he decides to quit.

 

[AggieMike88]

OP: Have a conversation with David White from this board.

He is someone many of us on this board have watched earn his wings while in high school and grow into finding good and solid employment as a pilot. He's now in his early 20's and has a good flying job in Alaska.

 

[DavidWhite]

Do you meet pt135 VFR mins? I know of a few places that will hire you. QOL will suck but the money is reasonable and will get you enough time to go elsewhere. Send me a message.

I fly for a living, the days are long but go by fast, and I'm home every night and sleep next to my girlfriend and cat. My quality of life is pretty good.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Get your CFI ! I know you think your probably too cool for that but do it. It says a lot about you and shows a higher level of skill than just being "Peter Pilot".

 

[Anymouse]

OP: Have a conversation with David White from this board.

He is someone many of us on this board have watched earn his wings while in high school and grow into finding good and solid employment as a pilot. He's now in his early 20's and has a good flying job in Alaska.

It's kinda funny. David seems to be following in my footsteps (literally!!).

Anyway, to the OP:

I was were you are now about 15 years ago. The first job was 4 days a month that I took vacation and sick days from my regular job so I could work and build my hours. Next job was jumpers on the weekend. That morphed into being on call during the week after I left my IT job. I finally left the jumper world and did bush flying in Alaska. At that time I had a whopping 900 or so hours. I stayed in Alaska for 5 years before the next "chapter" as you put it, started. It's been a pretty good ride for me.

So, ignore the nay-sayers, but don't go into this with your eyes wide closed. You can't really have it all. At least not in the beginning. You'll have to work long hard hours, but like David mentioned, the money can be decent. Build your time up however you can and move on to something better when you can.

Don't be afraid of taking a job that's not necessarily mainstream. There's lots more to do in aviation than flying for the airlines at near minimum wage. I think this is where a lot of the aviation failures go wrong.

 

[James331]

Don't be afraid of taking a job that's not necessarily mainstream. There's lots more to do in aviation than flying for the airlines at near minimum wage. I think this is where a lot of the aviation failures go wrong.

I agree fully with that statement.

Get your CFI ! I know you think your probably too cool for that but do it. It says a lot about you and shows a higher level of skill than just being "Peter Pilot".

Yes and no.

I'm very happy I got my CFI, though I did it a little later in my career.

That said, a DZ pilot is doing much more flying than a CFI, both professions have their ups and downs, easy parts and hard parts, but saying a DZ pilot is just a "peter pilot" is a load.

In many ways flying at a full time DZ requires much more skill than a 172 CFI, for sure it requires a far higher level of airmanship. Flying for a DZ will also get you PIC turbine and twin turbine hours sooner than CFIing, end up flying for most any turbine DZ and you'll be logging near 1k hrs a year.

On the $$ side, many DZs also provide housing which helps.

The key is, like anything, working for a good outfit, I posted some links in the OPs other thread that could help with that.


Again, CFIing is great, but saying it's somehow way better than working for a good DZ is just silly.

 

[jordane93]

Yes and no.

I'm very happy I got my CFI, though I did it a little later in my career.

That said, a DZ pilot is doing much more flying than a CFI, both professions have their ups and downs, easy parts and hard parts, but saying a DZ pilot is just a "peter pilot" is a load.

In many ways flying at a full time DZ requires much more skill than a 172 CFI, for sure it requires a far higher level of airmanship. Flying for a DZ will also get you PIC turbine and twin turbine hours sooner than CFIing, end up flying for most any turbine DZ and you'll be logging near 1k hrs a year.

On the $$ side, many DZs also provide housing which helps.

The key is, like anything, working for a good outfit, I posted some links in the OPs other thread that could help with that.


Again, CFIing is great, but saying it's somehow way better than working for a good DZ is just silly.

When my dad was a check airman for Delta he said the guys that were instructors generally performed better in the sim than guys who weren't. Not saying every CFI nailed it in the sim but the consensus seemed to be that they were better than guys who were not CFIs. Even though I've only had my CFI for a few weeks I'm learning so much and I'm learning to catch and recognize student mistakes before they even happen. Flying now is more concentrated than ever and I'm always keeping an eye out on students. Not saying that DZ guys aren't good pilots and don't learn a lot but I think when you're a CFI you get to learn a lot and you fine tune your skills.

 

[James331]

When my dad was a check airman for Delta he said the guys that were instructors generally performed better in the sim than guys who weren't. Not saying every CFI nailed it in the sim but the consensus seemed to be that they were better than guys who were not CFIs. Even though I've only had my CFI for a few weeks I'm learning so much and I'm learning to catch and recognize student mistakes before they even happen. Flying now is more concentrated than ever and I'm always keeping an eye out on students. Not saying that DZ guys aren't good pilots and don't learn a lot but I think when you're a CFI you get to learn a lot and you fine tune your skills.

It's a different type of flying.

A good CFI doesn't have his hand on the controls much.

CFI can identify problems with the student, probably has a better instrument scan and if probably able to rattle off FARs faster.

A DZ pilot ALWAYS has his hands on the controls, does much more full gross weight ops, has massive CG shifts on every flight and makes way more take offs and landings.

If I were to do it over again and I could only choose one path to get into a higher paying job, CFI or DZ, I'd go work as a full time DZ pilot at a DZ with a piston they would hire me into, and a twotter or King Air or Shorts which I could move into when I hit insurance mins.

The big DZs will have pilots flying 0800 to sunset Fri-Sun and a good amount of the week days too.

Especially at a DZ which provided housing.

 

[jonnyjetprop]

Every civilian professional pilot has been in your shoes. Since it's clearly too late to talk you out of an aviation career, the next step is getting your multiengine ATP. Today, if you have an ATP and a pulse, you can get a job at a regional.

Today, get your degree if you don't have one. Nobody cares where you got it and what you got it in.

Keep expenses low and debt even lower. Entry level aviation jobs do not pay the best.

Build flying time. Busy flight schools are hurting for instructors. Move to Florida or the Southwest.

Jump pilot time is fine, as long as your instrument flying skills are razor sharp. Any professional, including instructors, need to maintain their instrument skills. When you get your shot, you don't want to be the guy that fails initial because he has no scan. I can work with a lot of issues. Guys who have no scan go home.

Quality of life is a misnomer. You make life the best you can. Some of my best memories were flying 135 cargo and BBQ chicken parties on the weekend. I home brewed beer as a commuter airline pilot. I got to see the world flying 121 supplemental. I raised a family, put kids through college and own my own home without ever touching a legacy carrier. Make lemonade!

Hello fellow pilots, I am currently working as a jump pilot and building hours quick. I am already looking towards the next chapter and I was wondering if you had any advice on where I should go next. I am finishing up my multi-engine endorsement and would like to climb the ladder as quick as possible. I would like to find a job where quality of life is very high but I was hoping to make a decent living as well. Flight school was quite expensive for me and I would love to start paying off some of my student loans. I currently have 500 hours but I don't have a lot of cross country or night time. I am willing to re-locate and even work in another country. I was hoping to get some advice from pilots who have been in my shoes and learned from experience. Your input is very valuable to me and I appreciate any advice.
Chris Lyons C-ASEL

 

[dans2992]

How much multi time do you have?

 

[mondtster]

How much multi time do you have?

Considering the first post says "C-ASEL" I'd guess zero?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I see places like Star Marianas advertise from time to time for VFR 135 gigs. Go out to the islands, fly a PA32 from 500 to 1200 hours, then move into the 135 freight world for some turbine time.

 

[DavidWhite]

Climbto350.com

 

[James331]

4/18/15 Skydive Sacramento needs a pilot ASAP for their C206 and C182 with the opportunity to fly their King Air. They require a Commercial License, 2nd Class Medical and 500TT. If you meet their requirements send your resume to wpatrickgarcia@yahoo.com

That's a good one, should be a easy jump for you, end up logging multi turbine PIC time in no time flat.

Get 135 mins and already have KA time under your belt and you'll have quite a few doors open.

 

[Kritchlow]

I agree fully with that statement.







Yes and no.

I'm very happy I got my CFI, though I did it a little later in my career.

That said, a DZ pilot is doing much more flying than a CFI, both professions have their ups and downs, easy parts and hard parts, but saying a DZ pilot is just a "peter pilot" is a load.

In many ways flying at a full time DZ requires much more skill than a 172 CFI, for sure it requires a far higher level of airmanship. Flying for a DZ will also get you PIC turbine and twin turbine hours sooner than CFIing, end up flying for most any turbine DZ and you'll be logging near 1k hrs a year.

On the $$ side, many DZs also provide housing which helps.

The key is, like anything, working for a good outfit, I posted some links in the OPs other thread that could help with that.


Again, CFIing is great, but saying it's somehow way better than working for a good DZ is just silly.

I have done both CFI and DZ pilot extensively in my distant past. While Jump pilot was more lucrative, I learned almost nothing as compared to my instructor time other than how to not shock cool the engine on descent. It's not good on a resume. There is no substance to "jump pilot" other than building total time for another vfr job.

 

[Kritchlow]

To the OP... Sounds like you want it all while you're on step 1. Aviation just don't work that way....30 years from now you still may be wondering why you can't get weekends off at your base.
Welcome to professional aviation.

 

[James331]

No one ever looked down on the hours I flew jumpers.

PIC time is king
PIC turbine time is better
PIC twin turbine time is better..er

Find the fastest and best QOL to get there and do it.

From what I've seen, hours are hours, I've seen people ask for someone with

X hours in type
X hours AK time
X hours, ME/Sea/turbine/heavy/whatever
A few ask for experience in 135 or 121 ops.

Never seen a add, or a CP who stated they prefer someone came up early in their career as a CFI vs a DZ pilot, it's all 91 ops, hours are hours.

Get them as fast as you can, get into a turbine as fast as you can, twin turbine as fast as you can, the market waits for no one and PIC is king.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

how to not shock cool the engine

Im really tired of hearing that stupid phrase.

 

[Kritchlow]

No one ever looked down on the hours I flew jumpers.

PIC time is king
PIC turbine time is better
PIC twin turbine time is better..er

Find the fastest and best QOL to get there and do it.

From what I've seen, hours are hours, I've seen people ask for someone with

X hours in type
X hours 121/135
X hours AK time
X hours, ME/Sea/turbine/heavy/whatever

Never seen a add, or a CP who stated they prefer someone came up early in their career as a CFI vs a DZ pilot, it's all 91 ops, hours are hours.

Get them as fast as you can, get into a turbine as fast as you can, twin turbine as fast as you can, the market waits for no one and PIC is king.

Okay. That's your experience. Perhaps common when applying for some jobs, but in my experience really did nothing for my career other than show I could climb and descend. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my time as a jump pilot; I just don't think that was my ticket to my aviation career. YMMV.

 

[Kritchlow]

Im really tired of hearing that stupid phrase.

Okay. Tell that to my old CP when he had to replace cracked cylinders.

I'm not a mechanical expert... I'm just relaying what the experts told me.

 

[dans2992]

I've heard Skydive AZ is hiring twin otter pilots with as little as 300TT and 100 multi. They do not fly any pistons, so any time you get there is multi-turbine....

 

[Clark1961]

Okay. Tell that to my old CP when he had to replace cracked cylinders.

I'm not a mechanical expert... I'm just relaying what the experts told me.

If it's any comfort, it's what an old A&P IA told me about repeatedly replacing cracked cylinders...

 

[James331]

Okay. That's your experience. Perhaps common when applying for some jobs, but in my experience really did nothing for my career other than show I could climb and descend. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my time as a jump pilot; I just don't think that was my ticket to my aviation career. YMMV.

That's like saying a CFI just rides around the pattern in the right seat and doesn't really even fly the plane.

There's a lot more to it than that climbing and decending, especially if you're working a large professionally run DZ with a real DZO and a solid saftey culture.


My current position, which is a good one, wouldn't have been possible without the turbine time I amassed as a DZ pilot, of course some of the other requirements for the job and my ATP, which I got prior, I received doing other part 91 jobs, some CFIing, some ferry, and so on.

Still, looking down at what DZ flying can give you and how quickly you'll pick up hours is foolish, if the OP took that DZ job I posted and flew for 1.5 years he'd be much more desirable than if he got his CFI and CFIed for 1.5 years.

700ish hours flying around the home drome in a 172

1200ish hours flying around the home drome in a 206 and a King Air.


Or better yet, get the job at the DZ, save up and get your CFI, CFI on the side free lance.

 

[James331]

I've heard Skydive AZ is hiring twin otter pilots with as little as 300TT and 100 multi. They do not fly any pistons, so any time you get there is multi-turbine....

No

Please post the add.

300hrs you're lucky to get into a 182.

Eloy (if that's where you're talking) is going to want 1,000tt at least.

 

[DavidWhite]

Edit: doing my part to not turn this thread into a useless ****ing contest

 

[Kritchlow]

If it's any comfort, it's what an old A&P IA told me about repeatedly replacing cracked cylinders...

Lol!!! It does..
For a minute there I thought I did something wrong..

 

[Clark1961]

Lol!!! It does..
For a minute there I thought I did something wrong..

Ron, the old IA, tied the cracked cylinders back to specific pilots...

Ron also struck me as an honest fellow who explained his mistakes along with other folk's errors. I have a lot of respect for that level of integrity.

 

[Kritchlow]

That's like saying a CFI just rides around the pattern in the right seat and doesn't really even fly the plane.

There's a lot more to it than that climbing and decending, especially if you're working a large professionally run DZ with a real DZO and a solid saftey culture.


My current position, which is a good one, wouldn't have been possible without the turbine time I amassed as a DZ pilot, of course some of the other requirements for the job and my ATP, which I got prior, I received doing other part 91 jobs, some CFIing, some ferry, and so on.

Still, looking down at what DZ flying can give you and how quickly you'll pick up hours is foolish, if the OP took that DZ job I posted and flew for 1.5 years he'd be much more desirable than if he got his CFI and CFIed for 1.5 years.

700ish hours flying around the home drome in a 172

1200ish hours flying around the home drome in a 206 and a King Air.


Or better yet, get the job at the DZ, save up and get your CFI, CFI on the side free lance.

Happy to hear it worked well for you..
As I said, I enjoyed it as well. I just don't think Numerous VFR climbs and descents are the backbone of a resume.
I do see where it's a starting point however..


Your comparison to a CFI in the right seat makes no sense to me. The CFI is constantly refining basic skills and bailing out students from bad situations on landings. It truly builds skill level.
That said, I did have an important step between CFI and my first commuter airline gig... I flew night checks in s C310 for 1200 hours. That's truly where I learned to fly. That was 1990 ish.

 

[dans2992]

No



Please post the add.



300hrs you're lucky to get into a 182.



Eloy (if that's where you're talking) is going to want 1,000tt at least.

It's Eloy.... It was a friend of a friend that supposedly got hired at 300TT.

I exchanged messages with the guy inquiring about a job. I have 900TT but only 26 multi. He said that my TT was fine, reiterated that he got hired at 300TT but said I would need 100 multi. They train. I'm hear they are having problems finding people. Dunno....

 

[jordane93]

It's a different type of flying.

A good CFI doesn't have his hand on the controls much.

CFI can identify problems with the student, probably has a better instrument scan and if probably able to rattle off FARs faster.

A DZ pilot ALWAYS has his hands on the controls, does much more full gross weight ops, has massive CG shifts on every flight and makes way more take offs and landings.

If I were to do it over again and I could only choose one path to get into a higher paying job, CFI or DZ, I'd go work as a full time DZ pilot at a DZ with a piston they would hire me into, and a twotter or King Air or Shorts which I could move into when I hit insurance mins.

The big DZs will have pilots flying 0800 to sunset Fri-Sun and a good amount of the week days too.

Especially at a DZ which provided housing.

Agreed that it is a totally different type of flying. Both can help you become a better pilot.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Okay. Tell that to my old CP when he had to replace cracked cylinders.

I'm not a mechanical expert... I'm just relaying what the experts told me.

If it's any comfort, it's what an old A&P IA told me about repeatedly replacing cracked cylinders...

"I was told 25"/2500 was better for engine longevity."
"I was told LOP ops fry valves."
and on and on...

Bring me scientific data confirming it, and I'll be happy to change my mind and give both of you an apology.

This doesn't mean I support poor control of the throttle, prop, and mixture.

 

[Kritchlow]

"I was told 25"/2500 was better for engine longevity."
"I was told LOP ops fry valves."
and on and on...

Bring me scientific data confirming it, and I'll be happy to change my mind and give both of you an apology.

This doesn't mean I support poor control of the throttle, prop, and mixture.

Sorry... Not a maintenance guy, and I'm certainly not going to spend time researching it. It doesn't really matter at this point for me.. Certainly not enough to get all worked up about.
All I can say is that I have never cracked a jug reducing power for descent. Maybe I just got lucky. I don't really care that much.

 

[James331]

"I was told 25"/2500 was better for engine longevity."
"I was told LOP ops fry valves."
and on and on...

Bring me scientific data confirming it, and I'll be happy to change my mind and give both of you an apology.

This doesn't mean I support poor control of the throttle, prop, and mixture.

Honestly I don't care enough ether to collect all the date and publish it for you in some fancy format with charts and graphs. Fact is DZs are a business, jugs ain't cheap, and they aren't staying in business by not knowing the best way to turn loads.

Besides, DZO is always right

Go work for a full time 7 day a week high volume DZ with a piston plane and report back.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Honestly I don't care enough ether to collect all the date and publish it for you in some fancy format with charts and graphs. Fact is DZs are a business, jugs ain't cheap, and they aren't staying in business by not knowing the best way to turn loads.

Besides, DZO is always right

Go work for a full time 7 day a week high volume DZ with a piston plane and report back.

My argument was not with DZ flying... but did you ever lean in the climb or go "balls to the walls" the whole way up?

Aaand, I'm working on it. Except, it'll be KA time.