Cardinals?

Jeanie

Jeanie

Pattern Altitude
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Jeanie
I have a new student who bought a Cardinal and wants me to teach him to fly it. Anyone have any "be advised" information regarding how they handle etc.?
 
As long as it's not an early one without the AD-mandated horizontal stab mod (in which case it isn't legal), pretty much like any other light single with a stabilator, and a bit lighter in pitch than a 172. The powerful stabilator provides the means to get into a bad PIO in the flare, especially with excess approach speed, if the pilot overreacts to a balloon. As with any Cessna, roll is sluggish (at least to a Grumman pilot), but roll forces are not exceptionally heavy.

If it's one of the originals that still has the 150 HP engine (many have been upgraded to the 180HP engine), be prepared for really sluggish acceleration/climb performance, especially at high DA's.

The flaps are not the classic barn door "can't call them Fowler" flaps you see on the 150/152/172/182/etc, so you won't see quite the same responses. The changes in pitch trim/feel won't be quite as dramatic during extension and retraction.

And be very aware when opening the doors with the wind from behind the wing that the door hinge mechanisms are not very strong, and it's several thousand dollars to repair if the wind grabs the door from your grip and slams it open.

Other than that, enjoy.
 
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I think one the things that help me learn the plane was really watching the speeds in the pattern: 17 inches on downwind / 10 degrees flaps / trim 15 inches on base / 20 degrees flaps / trim 15 inches or as needed on final to maintain 70 mph (most Cardinals show MPH)/ 30 degrees on flaps depending on the wind / trim The landing flare seems to be the most consistent if the airspeed remains nailed at 70 MPH. Adding a touch of throttle to stop the sink seems to grease the landing. Did I mention trim? http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/images/smilies/wink2.gif
 
At least some of the 177s really like forward CG. With two adults in the front seats, it may require ballast. Do a careful W&B.

Don't get it behind the power curve or it will hide the runway from you.
 
My technique is fly the approach between 70 and 80 crossing the numbers around 70 or a tad lower pull power to idle then bend my wrist to pull during flare. When folks pull using thier whole arm the balloon hard and PIO easily. Wrist movement is about all you need. Full flap go arounds in the 150 hp are very anemic. I usually only use 1/3 to 2/3 during normal ops because of it. 1/3 flaps on takeoff helps shorten ground run quite a bit.

Once you master that cross the numbers a little slower.

There are no Cardinals in service without the AD mandated tail mod as cessna paid for them all in 1968.

With lots of gas and two or more people max flaps, unless way high, I use 2/3 and slip as required. Slips in the cardinal is the perfect tool to know.

Climb at 80 to 90 mph for cooling.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Don't get it behind the power curve or it will hide the runway from you.
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That's true especially in the '68 and '69 models (177, 177A). In addition to several other significant improvements, the 177B (1970-78) has a recontoured wing leading edge that's not as draggy at high angles of attack.
 
Tell us more about the specific plane....

What year, if a '68 what engine & prop? '68 came with fixed pitch and 0-320. Many have been upgraded to an 0-360 with fixed pitch or CS. 75 or earlier will indicate MPH, 76 and beyond in KTS. Make sure your POH and checklist match the ASI.

Adjustable trim tabs on each wing if one wing tends to be heavy.

Fuel selector on RH tank will prevent fuel from transferring to the low wing while parked and from pushing to the opposite wing while fueling.

Lean aggressively on the ground and keep RPM's 1000 or above. Mine will load up the bottom plugs up quickly if I don't adhere to those rules.

Fixed gear or RG? 10* of flaps are normal for all TO's. 15* for short field in the FG but not the RG per the POH.

Watch cylinder head temps. Lycoming recommends 380* or lower. You may need to leave the cowl flaps completely open while doing pattern work or maneuvers during warm summer days.

Previous poster nailed the advice regarding airspeed during landing. 70mph or equivalent with 30* flaps on final. I always use 30* of flaps while many others will suggest only using 20*. The faster you are crossing the fence the further down the runway your touchdown will be. You can't force a Cardinal on very well. Pull the power, flare gently, and hold the flare steady until it settles on. Lots of pitch authority. Pull back too harshly and you'll be going back up. If your student has trouble keeping the nose off in the flare, I found keeping the seat upright, with no recline helps a bunch. Might seem strange but it works.

Stalls are benign. You have to pull up fairly quickly for a full power on stall if you've got the 0-360.

No real watch out for's or be careful's except always park with the nose into the wind. The Cardinal flys differently than your typical Cessna but its not any more difficult.

Feel free to email or PM any specific questions you may have.
 
Thanks, y'all. I'll have more info on it tomorrow as that's the first time I'll be able to see it etc
 
One more comment related to power curve, if you do a power off approach with full plaps you may need power to arrest decent prior to flare as airspeed bleeds off so quick. This is the 68 laminar flow wing. It can be done without power but you need to hug high speed side of white arc and flare perfectly. I would compare it to a helicopter autorotation difficulty level.
 
The Cardinal is much slicker than the Cessnas most GA pilots are used to. Watch the airspeed during descents. In general Cardinals fly a bit more like a high performance single than other similar Pipers and Cessnas.

Enjoy the comfortable cockpit and great visibility!

Pity the poor fools in their Archers and Skyhawks! :)
 
pilot117 said:
...always park with the nose into the wind.
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Unfortunately, the wind changes. When it does, be real careful with those large doors. If there's a spirited tailwind, whether caused by mother nature or another aircraft, the wind can easily snatch that door and slam it against the cowl. This will most likely cause structural damage at the hinges. I've seen it happen.

I got my commercial and instrument tickets in an RG version. I liked the way it flew.
 
Well it's a 1968 with 150 hp... I'll fly it tomorrow.....
 
JimNtexas said:
The Cardinal is much slicker than the Cessnas most GA pilots are used to. Watch the airspeed during descents. In general Cardinals fly a bit more like a high performance single than other similar Pipers and Cessnas.

Enjoy the comfortable cockpit and great visibility!

Pity the poor fools in their Archers and Skyhawks! :)
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Really? none of them that I have ever flown felt slick, in any definition of the word...
 
ja_user said:
The RG isn't "Slick"...
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With the gear out, it accelerates like it's dragging a boat anchor. It's not bad when it's up. It takes noticeably more runway than a 172 loaded to max.

I think he meant it's hard to slow down. It is, with the gear up in a descent. So, you level off, drop below 125 KIAS, then extend the gear....
 
Wonder if she survived. If you were going to fly around with just two FAA size adults in the plane, I think the early ones would be my preference. I've heard they have a faster wing than the later ones. Also, rather pretty for a high wing as well.
 
I have first hand experience pre and post powerflow on a 1968 Cessna 177. The difference is minimual. The noise is different yes, but performance I can't tell.

In fact, the performance was sooooo much better that my employer trashed the Powerflow on our 172P when it cracked and put the old OEM exhaust back on because they were tired of messing with it. I will be doing the same with our 68 C177 when it cracks.

The 68 Cessna 177 is a ground lover for one reason, the airfoil design. There's a HUGE difference between the thin wing 177 and the other cessna products. Its like comparing a Mooney wing to fat Cherokee wing. :goofy:
 
MAKG1 said:
With the gear out, it accelerates like it's dragging a boat anchor. It's not bad when it's up. It takes noticeably more runway than a 172 loaded to max.

I think he meant it's hard to slow down. It is, with the gear up in a descent. So, you level off, drop below 125 KIAS, then extend the gear....
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Slicker than a 172 I guess, but it is no Bonanza..

Approach flaps 10 degrees greatly helps takeoff, even though the manual says 0-10%. YOu can also use the first 10 degrees at 130kts (I believe), which is very helpful you get you down to the pattern without dropping the gear 5 miles out.
 
ja_user said:
Slicker than a 172 I guess, but it is no Bonanza..

Approach flaps 10 degrees greatly helps takeoff, even though the manual says 0-10%. YOu can also use the first 10 degrees at 130kts (I believe), which is very helpful you get you down to the pattern without dropping the gear 5 miles out.
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Yep 1/3 flaps has a large impact on ground roll and a high deploy speed.
 
I almost always use 10 flaps in a 177 or 182. The 182 will tolerate 20 flaps for a short field takeoff.

A no-flap takeoff on a 2400 foot runway in a 177RG is a bit longer roll than I'd like. It can do it (BTDT), but it's uncomfortable, and it climbs slowly until the gear is retracted.
 
bnt83 said:
Have you flown one with and another without before on a Cessna 177?
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No never have. I've also never been in a 177 with the 150hp but have heard that it was a dog. I usually fly with Gary who just put a PF in his PA28-140 with the 160hp engine and you can ask him but I think he is very please with the improved performance.
 
AdamZ said:
No never have. I've also never been in a 177 with the 150hp but have heard that it was a dog. I usually fly with Gary who just put a PF in his PA28-140 with the 160hp engine and you can ask him but I think he is very please with the improved performance.
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See post #28
 
bnt83 said:
See post #28
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Does your 68 have the 180 conversion? I'm wondering if there is a sweet spot where the PFs are great but outside that hp sweetspot they are like putting wheel pants on an Pawnee.
 
AdamZ said:
Does your 68 have the 180 conversion? I'm wondering if there is a sweet spot where the PFs are great but outside that hp sweetspot they are like putting wheel pants on an Pawnee.
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Stock 150.

I've flown the 177B (180 HP constant speed prop) and it wasn't a huge improvement but then again I found a cylinder on that with about 26/80 compression, so that might be why it seemed weak.
 
Winds were gustin to 28 so I didn't fly it... Aiming for sometime this week. In terms of patient long climbs I train out of alpine and ft. Stockton in a Cessna 152 so I understand waiting
 
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