CAP Observer - Logging SIC time

labbadabba

labbadabba

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
2,391
Location
Lawrence, KS
Display Name
Display name:
labbadabba
I know you can't log flight time as a CAP Observer but should they be able to?

Here's my thinking. The observer serves as flight commander and is responsible for all airplane operations other than physically manipulating the flight controls. For a mission, an aircrew is required to have an observer on board thus making that person a required crew member.

In the military, flying SAR missions there needs to be two pilots up front even in aircraft that, when flying non-mission profiles, are permitted for single-pilot operations. How does this apply under the FARs? Or does it supercede them in some way? Could CAPR rules be treated in the same manner?
 
Ah.. no. Observer serves as a CAP Sortie Commander. Does not have anything to do with FAA and their logging or requirements. PIC is PIC... No SIC in 172/182 Cessnas. Observer(who doesn't need to be a certificated or trained pilot) is completely irrelevant.

EDIT: The Observer is absolutely NOT responsible for all airplane operations. PIC is.
 
labbadabba said:
I know you can't log flight time as a CAP Observer but should they be able to?

Here's my thinking. The observer serves as flight commander and is responsible for all airplane operations other than physically manipulating the flight controls. For a mission, an aircrew is required to have an observer on board thus making that person a required crew member.

In the military, flying SAR missions there needs to be two pilots up front even in aircraft that, when flying non-mission profiles, are permitted for single-pilot operations. How does this apply under the FARs? Or does it supercede them in some way? Could CAPR rules be treated in the same manner?
Click to expand...

The CAP's own internal rules have no bearing whatsoever on the FAA regulations. The FAR's don't recognize the term "mission," "flight commander," or "observer." The fact that the CAP requires the "observer" to be there does not make them required crew under the FARs. Only the FAR's (or FAA approved ops specs) can designate required crew. True military operations are a totally different situation.
 
genna said:
Ah.. no. Observer serves as a CAP Sortie Commander. Does not have anything to do with FAA and their logging or requirements. PIC is PIC... No SIC in 172/182 Cessnas. Observer(who doesn't need to be a certificated or trained pilot) is completely irrelevant.

EDIT: The Observer is absolutely NOT responsible for all airplane operations. PIC is.
Click to expand...

Right I know it's separate but I know when flying observer I'm doing everything that I do as a pilot other than flying. Certainly more than I do as a safety pilot.
 
bradg33 said:
True military operations are a totally different situation.
Click to expand...

So given that CAP is USAF Auxiliary could the same not be said (at some point) for CAP missions? I recognize that the FARs supercede CAPR in terms of logging flight time but if we apply the same rules for military SAR missions to CAP SAR missions then a case could be made. Of course this would also probably mean that in order to be a CAP observer, one would also need to be a pilot. I'm just tossing the idea out there...
 
labbadabba said:
Right I know it's separate but I know when flying observer I'm doing everything that I do as a pilot other than flying. Certainly more than I do as a safety pilot.
Click to expand...

You are a pilot, you have that ability, so sharing load makes sense, but not required. What if the observer is not a pilot? My wife does a lot of things when she's in the right seat of C172. She can even fly the plane if she wanted to, but she cannot log anything. Not a required crew member, period.

EDIT. If CAP flight gets in trouble with FAA, it's the PIC's ticket that's going to be on the line. Observer role will be mostly irrelevant
 
labbadabba said:
So given that CAP is USAF Auxiliary could the same not be said (at some point) for CAP missions? I recognize that the FARs supercede CAPR in terms of logging flight time but if we apply the same rules for military SAR missions to CAP SAR missions then a case could be made. Of course this would also probably mean that in order to be a CAP observer, one would also need to be a pilot. I'm just tossing the idea out there...
Click to expand...

CAP operates under FAR 91 rules.. Military does not. It's irrelevant who CAP is a part of.
 
genna said:
CAP operates under FAR 91 rules.. Military does not. It's irrelevant who CAP is a part of.
Click to expand...

Bingo. The fact that CAP adopts certain military rules does not make the CAP a "military" operation. It's a civilian operation under Part 91.
 
BTW, safety pilot(a required crew member) cannot log SIC either. Only PIC and only if it is agreed that he/she is the pilot in command, logic being that he's the only one who can see outside flying in VFR conditions. It's not automatic.

EDIT: Retracting my statement here as I was shown the errors of my way
 
Last edited:
I know, I understand that we can't, and why.

I'm just making the case that hypothetically, if the same rules applied to CAP SAR missions as military SAR missions then a case could be made. But that would also mean that in order to be an observer, that person would also need to be a pilot.
 
genna said:
BTW, safety pilot(a required crew member) cannot log SIC either. Only PIC and only if it is agreed that he/she is the pilot in command, logic being that he's the only one who can see outside flying in VFR conditions. It's not automatic.
Click to expand...

False. A safety pilot absolutely can log SIC time if the safety pilot is not ACTING as PIC.
 
bradg33 said:
False. A safety pilot absolutely can log SIC time if the safety pilot is not ACTING as PIC.
Click to expand...

EDIT: Retracting my statement here as I was shown the errors of my way

Not in C172:

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...-cross-country-time/logging-time-safety-pilot

Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC.
  • Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).
  • SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109) under which the flight is conducted.

EDIT: I'm re-reading this and not so sure anymore based on the first bullet point..
 
Last edited:
labbadabba said:
I know, I understand that we can't, and why.

I'm just making the case that hypothetically, if the same rules applied to CAP SAR missions as military SAR missions then a case could be made. But that would also mean that in order to be an observer, that person would also need to be a pilot.
Click to expand...

yes. and go though boot camp and sign up for military commission....... you know.. join the AF :)

CAP is not that... "Civil..." is in the name. If they were military, AF might as well just buy some 172/182s(well, they do buy them, but under different budget item i think) and use military pilots.
 
Last edited:
genna said:
Not in C172:

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-s...-cross-country-time/logging-time-safety-pilot

Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC.
  • Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).
  • SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109) under which the flight is conducted.

EDIT: I'm re-reading this and not so sure anymore based on the first bullet point..
Click to expand...

A safety pilot is required crew when the other guy is under the hood. If the safety pilot isn't acting as PIC, he's acting as SIC. As such, he can log that time as SIC time. This isn't even remotely controversial.
 
Yes. Take this situation. The plane belongs to Pete. Its his plane, his insurance, his hangar and his risk. He needs Dan as a safety pilot because Pete is going to be under the hood. But Pete is PIC by virtue of being in charge of the flight. He is also the manipulator of the controls. So Dan can log SIC. (Dan doesnt HAVE to log anything btw)
 
Ok. No problem with SIC logging.

OP. Just put the mission pilot under the hood! :)
 
The MO is a passenger, at least in the CAP aircraft I flew (Cessna single engine seies). On real missions, the right seat was usually occupied by another pilot. Who was, also, a passenger.

I know that CAP made noise about the MO being in command, and I'd work with a non-pilot MO, if he/she was competent; but end of the day, the PIC makes the final call on everything. I can't see much related to operating the aircaft being done by the MO in the Cessnas, or the AirVan; talking on the FM and mucking with the Becker aren't required aircraft operations.
 
labbadabba said:
I know, I understand that we can't, and why.

I'm just making the case that hypothetically, if the same rules applied to CAP SAR missions as military SAR missions then a case could be made. But that would also mean that in order to be an observer, that person would also need to be a pilot.
Click to expand...
No. I still don't think it would justify being logged.
 
labbadabba said:
So given that CAP is USAF Auxiliary could the same not be said (at some point) for CAP missions? I recognize that the FARs supercede CAPR in terms of logging flight time but if we apply the same rules for military SAR missions to CAP SAR missions then a case could be made. Of course this would also probably mean that in order to be a CAP observer, one would also need to be a pilot. I'm just tossing the idea out there...
Click to expand...

Point of order: USAF Aux is absolutely meaningless. CAP is a non-profit civilian corporation, funded by Congress, period.

genna said:
EDIT. If CAP flight gets in trouble with FAA, it's the PIC's ticket that's going to be on the line. Observer role will be mostly irrelevant
Click to expand...

I've seen two rated pilots hung by their butts by FAA in a CAP accident. The rationale was that the other rated pilot should have STOPPED the PIC from doing something absolutely stupid. FAA was quite unimpressed with the claim that the pilot was also acting as MO. They said flight safety came before playing MO in the right seat.

There's also, of course, the even stronger version of that when the non-PIC holds a higher rating than the PIC. Or worse, an instructor rating, even if they are NOT CAP instructor rated. FAA hung one instructor's butt out to dry here in a separate but similar CAP incident.

No matter how "important" the pseudo-military stuff feels, FAA expects you to behave to your ratings. No matter what seat you're in or your pseudo-military job title.
 
labbadabba said:
So given that CAP is USAF Auxiliary could the same not be said (at some point) for CAP missions? I recognize that the FARs supercede CAPR in terms of logging flight time but if we apply the same rules for military SAR missions to CAP SAR missions then a case could be made. Of course this would also probably mean that in order to be a CAP observer, one would also need to be a pilot. I'm just tossing the idea out there...
Click to expand...
CAP is the USAF aux only because Congress needed an existing organization to administer the money that Congress appropriates for CAP.
 
murphey said:
CAP is the USAF aux only because Congress needed an existing organization to administer the money that Congress appropriates for CAP.
Click to expand...

Technically they don't even really need that. They choose to funnel the money through USAF as "dole holder" and auditor, but they could have any large accounting and consulting firm do the job, too. The appropriation bill could specify whoever they wanted to oversee handing the money over and auditing the corporation.

It's mostly marketing to keep the USAF Aux name alive. There's not even that much historical significance to it, as many historians have figured out going back to the founding of the organization. Originally the entire point was a civilian service organization using their own aircraft and resources.

Civilian aircraft use by and for CAP was still fairly common into the 80's but a certain company in Wichita and a certain Senator saw an opportunity... and while there's still regs allowing for personal aircraft use, realistically there hasn't been any in going on three decades now.
 
bradg33 said:
A safety pilot is required crew when the other guy is under the hood. If the safety pilot isn't acting as PIC, he's acting as SIC. As such, he can log that time as SIC time. This isn't even remotely controversial.
Click to expand...
Small nit: a safety pilot who is not acting as PIC is not acting as SIC either. Technically he/she can log SIC, but you can only act as SIC when the aircraft (or your opspecs) require a SIC. In this case the person is acting as a safety pilot but can log that time as SIC under 61.51(f)(2) because they're required to be there per 91.109(c).

In order to act as SIC, you must comply with 61.55.
 
labbadabba said:
Right I know it's separate but I know when flying observer I'm doing everything that I do as a pilot other than flying. Certainly more than I do as a safety pilot.
Click to expand...
That's not the MO's job. You are not a pilot in that role. You are in charge of the overall conduct of a search mission (but not all missions -- the photographer is for photo missions). You are the POC with base and other participating aircraft, and you handle the DF. When you're not doing that, you look at the ground and assist the scanner. Maybe help scan for traffic when possible, like the scanner.

With wing mounted cameras, you act as safety pilot, as the PIC will be heads down a lot. That role DOES require a pilot in the right seat, as do a few others (e.g., night flight over water). But there is nothing for you to log unless the pilot is wearing a view limiting device and you have a valid Form 5, and you can figure out how to put a PIC in the right seat in WMIRS.

In practice, most observers on real missions are pilots, and most of us make the error of acting as copilot. But there are many higher priorities. Remember, the point is to find a needle in a haystack, so eyes on the ground is much more important than helping fly the plane.
 
Last edited:
Brad Z said:
Small nit: a safety pilot who is not acting as PIC is not acting as SIC either. Technically he/she can log SIC, but you can only act as SIC when the aircraft (or your opspecs) require a SIC. In this case the person is acting as a safety pilot but can log that time as SIC under 61.51(f)(2) because they're required to be there per 91.109(c).

In order to act as SIC, you must comply with 61.55.
Click to expand...
It's an interesting nit created by the Chief Counsel to get around a problem created for safety pilots on an IFR flight plan by an amendment to 61.55(a) a year or 3 prior to that. I know you know it, but for the half dozen folks who might be interested, the Chief Counsel opinion is the 2013 Beatty Letter.

Small nit to your small nit:
you can only act as SIC when the aircraft (or your opspecs or an FAR) require a SIC.
 
labbadabba said:
I know, I understand that we can't, and why.

I'm just making the case that hypothetically, if the same rules applied to CAP SAR missions as military SAR missions then a case could be made. But that would also mean that in order to be an observer, that person would also need to be a pilot.
Click to expand...

But you can't apply the same rules to the FAA. They don't acknowledge "observer" as a loggable position. Military has their own designators for non pilot logging that has nothing to do with the FAA. I've flown with people in the back logging crew chief (CE), door gunner (OR) and flight medic / surgeon (MO). Should they also be able to log time in civilian log books?
 
Last edited:
Brad Z said:
Small nit: a safety pilot who is not acting as PIC is not acting as SIC either. Technically he/she can log SIC, but you can only act as SIC when the aircraft (or your opspecs) require a SIC. In this case the person is acting as a safety pilot but can log that time as SIC under 61.51(f)(2) because they're required to be there per 91.109(c).

In order to act as SIC, you must comply with 61.55.
Click to expand...

A fair nit to my overly-simplistic explanation.
 
MAKG1 said:
But there is nothing for you to log unless the pilot is wearing a view limiting device and you have a valid Form 5, and you can figure out how to put a PIC in the right seat in WMIRS.
Click to expand...

What you probably mean to say is that without Form 5, you are in violation of CAP regs and are prohibited from acting as a PIC(flight commander). That wouldn't have prevented you from logging the flight in your logbook, however. Though, obviously, i wouldn't recommend doing either. First part is just bad, second part is the evidence of that.
 
genna said:
What you probably mean to say is that without Form 5, you are in violation of CAP regs and are prohibited from acting as a PIC(flight commander). That wouldn't have prevented you from logging the flight in your logbook, however. Though, obviously, i wouldn't recommend doing either. First part is just bad, second part is the evidence of that.
Click to expand...
You can't log PIC as safety pilot unless you act as PIC. You aren't authorized to act as PIC without the Form 5.
 
MAKG1 said:
You can't log PIC as safety pilot unless you act as PIC. You aren't authorized to act as PIC without the Form 5.
Click to expand...

That's what I said, but that has nothing to do with FAA logging rules. FAA does not require form 5. Basically, if you do act as pic and log it, FAA is ok with it, but you'd be booted from CAP.
 
Although I hold a LearJet type rating, I had to jump through the 61.55 hoops to legally act as SIC in a Citation. The Chief Pilot was an stickler for regs and had me do everything required by that reg.


Bob
 
genna said:
That's what I said, but that has nothing to do with FAA logging rules. FAA does not require form 5. Basically, if you do act as pic and log it, FAA is ok with it, but you'd be booted from CAP.
Click to expand...
That's the same relevance things like club rules and insurance have - the nonregulatory decision whether or not to act as PIC. If you steal an airplane, the FAA is fine that you were acting as PIC and both the FAA and (especially) the law enforcement authorities are perfectly fine with you logging it ;)
 
genna said:
That's what I said, but that has nothing to do with FAA logging rules. FAA does not require form 5. Basically, if you do act as pic and log it, FAA is ok with it, but you'd be booted from CAP.
Click to expand...
Can you act as PIC when you're not authorized to?

I mean, you could say you're PIC, but you're not PIC.
 
MAKG1 said:
Can you act as PIC when you're not authorized to?

I mean, you could say you're PIC, but you're not PIC.
Click to expand...

FAA authorized you to act as PIC by way of giving you correct certifications. FAA is not likely to care what CAP has authorized you to do. That's between you, CAP, and CAP insurance. I don't really see how any CAP regs can override FAA regs for FAA documentation. If you flew without a release, CAP would be very upset. Might even yank your Form 5. FAA? Won't care a bit.

I could be wrong, but that's how i see it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's the same relevance things like club rules and insurance have - the nonregulatory decision whether or not to act as PIC. If you steal an airplane, the FAA is fine that you were acting as PIC and both the FAA and (especially) the law enforcement authorities are perfectly fine with you logging it ;)
Click to expand...

Perhaps.. Certainly of a "theft" angle was pursued. Except it's not a theft. (EDIT: Well, depending on how you ended up flying without F5)
 
genna said:
Perhaps.. Certainly of a "theft" angle was pursued. Except it's not a theft. (EDIT: Well, depending on how you ended up flying without F5)
Click to expand...
Sorry. The "theft" should have been a separate paragraph. It was not intended to refer to the one before it. :) Just an example of #5 in my signature block.
 
labbadabba said:
I know you can't log flight time as a CAP Observer but should they be able to?

Here's my thinking. The observer serves as flight commander and is responsible for all airplane operations other than physically manipulating the flight controls. For a mission, an aircrew is required to have an observer on board thus making that person a required crew member.

In the military, flying SAR missions there needs to be two pilots up front even in aircraft that, when flying non-mission profiles, are permitted for single-pilot operations. How does this apply under the FARs? Or does it supercede them in some way? Could CAPR rules be treated in the same manner?
Click to expand...

If you are the flight commander, that changes the whole situation dude.:rolleyes:
 
genna said:
FAA authorized you to act as PIC by way of giving you correct certifications. FAA is not likely to care what CAP has authorized you to do. That's between you, CAP, and CAP insurance. I don't really see how any CAP regs can override FAA regs for FAA documentation. If you flew without a release, CAP would be very upset. Might even yank your Form 5. FAA? Won't care a bit.

I could be wrong, but that's how i see it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I believe you are correct, at least practically speaking - it was (probably still is) routine for CAP pilots to have another CAP pilot act as a safety pilot - practicing approaches under the hood when VFR, for example. What goes into CAP's on-line system isn't really relevant - it isn't an authoritative source for FAA currency or flight time logging rules. I would be the PIC as far as CAP's system went, but I would also be under the hood and my safety pilot buddy was logging PIC time when I was. It actually never came up as an issue in my 14 years with CAP. It was FAA "legal", and not something CAP could police anyway.
 
What possible value, and for whom, would Cessna 172 SIC time have?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top