Cancelling IFR... ON TIME

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GAtoVA

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 18, 2019
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I've had the IFR ticket for just over a year. Yesterday I filed two flights for a practice IFR mission from KROA to KAVC (a small non-towered airport) and return. I flew under the hood with a CFII. Departed KROA at 4:54 (a little late; I had filed 4:30) and crossed the numbers on arrival at KAVC at 6pm. We taxied to the ramp, and shut down so my CFII could visit the facilities. I called Washington ARTCC on my cell at the number in the AF/D after we shut down. It rang for a couple minutes before the guy answered, and I told him I was on the ground and wanted to cancel IFR. He put me on hold, and confirmed my IFR was canceled. I also asked him to clear me for the IFR flight I'd already filed separately for our return. He did that, and we taxied and took off. On the climb out when we got back in touch with Washington Center, the controller said "we were about to send out a search party."

NOW: What's the time requirement for calling to cancel your IFR? Most people I've asked feel this isn't something to mess around with. Was the controller joking, or not?? Wondering how close I actually came to having the search party called while I sat on a pitch black ramp in the middle of nowhere waiting for my CFII to pee...
 
Not enough info. Did he say that about your inbound or outbound? And how long was it from the time you got the clearance by phone to the time you contacted them on takeoff?
 
GAtoVA said:
I also asked him to clear me for the IFR flight I'd already filed separately for our return. He did that, and we taxied and took off. On the climb out when we got back in touch with Washington Center, the controller said "we were about to send out a search party."
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Sounds to me like maybe an IFR release void time wasn’t met. Do you recall what your clearance void time was?
 
Radar Contact said:
Sounds to me like maybe an IFR release void time wasn’t met. Do you recall what your clearance void time was?
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You may be right. I was surprised that he cleared us with a clearance void time of only about 7 minutes later. We were probably close to busting that. I guess when he said search party I automatically assumed he meant a delay of canceling the FIRST flight.
 
I wonder if you had the same Washington Center controller that asked me if I wanted VFR flight following or IFR flight following. Was about 20nm north of AVC at the time.
 
Call the controller on the phone tomorrow. You should be able to get your questions answered.
 
dmspilot said:
I wonder if you had the same Washington Center controller that asked me if I wanted VFR flight following or IFR flight following. Was about 20nm north of AVC at the time.
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You just melted my brain. Is IFR flight following a thing? Like, regular FF but able to go through clouds? That'd be neat.
 
dmspilot said:
No. It isn't.
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Lol I was mostly joking but still sounds neat on the surface. Of course it wouldn't work in reality. But it'd be cool to be able to punch through cloud banks on a whim while still having the freedom of VFR in VMC.
 
drummer4468 said:
Lol I was mostly joking but still sounds neat on the surface. Of course it wouldn't work in reality. But it'd be cool to be able to punch through cloud banks on a whim while still having the freedom of VFR in VMC.
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That would be vfr on top.
 
The way void time clearances work is they ASSUME you left (on time) unless you call them. So if the void time goes by and they haven't heard from you, they assume you have taken off and are missing. The reason the clearance is void if you're still on the ground is to prevent you from messing up the system by departing late, but until you call in and tell them you didn't leave they have to assume YOU DID.
 
You should wait until you're at the end of the runway ready to go before you call for release. When you closed your inbound flight plan, what would have worked great is to ask for your outbound clearance, but with a hold for release. That way you can get all set up and ready to go, then when you are #1 at the end of the runway, or thereabouts, you call and get released.
 
GAtoVA said:
You may be right. I was surprised that he cleared us with a clearance void time of only about 7 minutes later. We were probably close to busting that. I guess when he said search party I automatically assumed he meant a delay of canceling the FIRST flight.
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I don't know which it was, but on the part I bolded, why? I've gotten less than that. If you felt you needed more then say so. And if the need for more comes up unexpectedly, call and ask for it. This is a 2-way conversation.

on the cancellation, I don't know if that's what prompted the comment, but understand that every minute you don't cancel is a minute someone else can neither take off IFR or be cleared for an approach into a nontowered airport.
 
Technically, they don’t “send out the search party” til 30 minutes after your void time. You probably rubbed up against your void time. 7 minutes is a bit tight though. I used to use 10 minutes but strangely, there is no standard.
 
They're not sending out search parties yet, but they are blocking the airpsace. Essentially, you're a lost comm guy at that point.
 
flyingron said:
They're not sending out search parties yet, but they are blocking the airpsace. Essentially, you're a lost comm guy at that point.
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“send out the search party” meaning, the aircraft has now become an emergency and overdue aircraft procedures have been started. Blocking the airport for other IFR arrival / departures is only one of the actions taken. They have to issue an ALNOT to get a communication search of the pilots route of flight as well.
 
midlifeflyer said:
on the cancellation, I don't know if that's what prompted the comment, but understand that every minute you don't cancel is a minute someone else can neither take off IFR or be cleared for an approach into a nontowered airport.
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...nor a towered airport without RADAR.
 
GAtoVA said:
You may be right. I was surprised that he cleared us with a clearance void time of only about 7 minutes later. We were probably close to busting that. I guess when he said search party I automatically assumed he meant a delay of canceling the FIRST flight.
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The 7 minute void time is too short for an airplane that is sitting on the ramp with the engine shutdown. He should have asked you how long before you are ready to go, but in any case, a hold for release clearance would have been more appropriate. Some times you have to tell the controllers rather than accept whatever they give you.
 
dmspilot said:
No. It isn't.
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Well, sometimes it is, sorta.

I was coming home and in eastern SD, clouds started pushing me lower and lower (botched forecast - again) until I was able to read the license plates on cars. I could have kept trudging along since it is eastern SD, but now they have these giant metal plane catchers sticking up everywhere. Called up ATC and explained the situation, while he put me in the system, I got a "can you maintain your own terrain avoidance?" Not a maintain VFR (which I've gotten that question before from ZAU). Before I was given an actual clearance (had gotten a squawk, and radar contact) I was in the clouds, about 2 minutes later I was given a clearance.
 
EdFred said:
Well, sometimes it is, sorta.

I was coming home and in eastern SD, clouds started pushing me lower and lower (botched forecast - again) until I was able to read the license plates on cars. I could have kept trudging along since it is eastern SD, but now they have these giant metal plane catchers sticking up everywhere. Called up ATC and explained the situation, while he put me in the system, I got a "can you maintain your own terrain avoidance?" Not a maintain VFR (which I've gotten that question before from ZAU). Before I was given an actual clearance (had gotten a squawk, and radar contact) I was in the clouds, about 2 minutes later I was given a clearance.
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The question of being able to maintain your own obstruction/ terrain clearance isn’t an authorization for you to go into the clouds VFR though. That’s a FAR violation.

You’re below the MIA, asking to pick up an IFR due to ceilings. They ask the question, you reply “affirmative” and then the clearance is issued. That’s how it’s supposed to be done.
 
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Velocity173 said:
The question of being able to maintain your own obstruction/ terrain clearance isn’t an authorization for you to go into the clouds VFR though. That’s a FAR violation.

You’re below their MVA, asking to pick up an IFR due to ceilings. They ask the question, you reply “affirmative” and then the clearance is issued. That’s how it’s supposed to be done.
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91.3 :D

Things went downhill in a hurry, and you guys can only get us in the system so fast. said I only had about 20 more seconds before I'm going IMC whether I like it or not. I'll take the FAR violation in lieu of smacking into Channel 12's TV tower (I have no ideal if there's even a channel 12 in SD for the pedant who wants to chime in on how it wouldn't be channel 12)

After about 5 miles, it was VFR/VMC again.
 
EdFred said:
91.3 :D

Things went downhill in a hurry, and you guys can only get us in the system so fast. said I only had about 20 more seconds before I'm going IMC whether I like it or not. I'll take the FAR violation in lieu of smacking into Channel 12's TV tower (I have no ideal if there's even a channel 12 in SD for the pedant who wants to chime in on how it wouldn't be channel 12)

After about 5 miles, it was VFR/VMC again.
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Sure, if you declared an emergency then all bets are off. I suppose if you indeed were at license plate level, it’s gotten to the point of being an emergency.
 
Velocity173 said:
7 minutes is a bit tight though. I used to use 10 minutes but strangely, there is no standard.
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I've gotten 2 and 3 minute void times routinely at my local uncontrolled field. Of course, that's calling from the end of the runway ready to go, either on the RCO or the phone. And, I believe that releases from this field also shut down IFR operations into/out of the adjacent Class D, but I can't remember the rules on that.
 
RussR said:
I've gotten 2 and 3 minute void times routinely at my local uncontrolled field. Of course, that's calling from the end of the runway ready to go, either on the RCO or the phone. And, I believe that releases from this field also shut down IFR operations into/out of the adjacent Class D, but I can't remember the rules on that.
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3 minutes seems to be the norm @ KGAI but we're in the middle of some very busy airspace (Dulles, BWI, National etc) and after the readback they tell you to not call for release unless holding short #1 with that short window.
 
RussR said:
I've gotten 2 and 3 minute void times routinely at my local uncontrolled field. Of course, that's calling from the end of the runway ready to go, either on the RCO or the phone. And, I believe that releases from this field also shut down IFR operations into/out of the adjacent Class D, but I can't remember the rules on that.
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Yeah, in the aircraft at the run up area in an RCO or Phone, 2-3 minutes is definitely doable. I was thinking the OP was probably sitting in the aircraft prior to start.

My answer was a bit dated as well in that I did ATC before the proliferation of cell phones. Old school by calling ATC on an FBO phone, 10 minute void is suitable.
 
Velocity173 said:
Sure, if you declared an emergency then all bets are off. I suppose if you indeed were at license plate level, it’s gotten to the point of being an emergency.
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Nothing in 91.3 requires declaring the emergency (although doing so is often beneficial).
 
midlifeflyer said:
on the cancellation, I don't know if that's what prompted the comment, but understand that every minute you don't cancel is a minute someone else can neither take off IFR or be cleared for an approach into a nontowered airport.
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smv said:
...nor a towered airport without RADAR.
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No need to cancel at a towered airport with or without radar if the tower is active. They cancel for you, correct?
 
Palmpilot said:
Nothing in 91.3 requires declaring the emergency (although doing so is often beneficial).
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I agree but in order for ATC to provide emergency service, it does help to declare. I didn’t get anywhere in the story where he let ATC know he was in the clouds either. If he didn’t, then in that entire evolution, the controller would be treating lit like any other IFR pickup, which by the sounds of it, it wasn’t.
 
smv said:
...nor a towered airport without RADAR.
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I guess that's sort of true but in almost 30 years only came across a few situation in which it would do anything of substance - a true one-in-one out towered airport where approaches and departures would conflict. Other than that, even at a nonradar (if you happen to know) tower, isn't Approach sequencing and coordinating? If the weather is visual, aren't the separation requirements less? And if it's IFR, the tower will cancel when you land so there's still a substantial time savings over nontowered unless you are able to reach approach on the radio from the ground.
 
Palmpilot said:
Nothing in 91.3 requires declaring the emergency (although doing so is often beneficial).
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Dunno if I ever told this story here, but I've told it many times when I've done presentations. The only "lots of paperwork" situation involving an emergency I have encountered was one where the pilot didn't declare. It was probably 15 years ago. A jet pilot had a flameout in the clouds. He handled it but did not key the mic even long enough to say, "[Tailnumber] unable to hold altitude, MayDay!" I wasn't in the cockpit and certainly don't him for aviating first (and ultimately neither did the FAA) but there was a bit of paperwork, not to mention aggravation and worry about his career, responding to the enforcement action the FAA started for the Class B altitude bust. It went all the way to the attorney conference stage in the process before it was resolved. I'm absolutely convinced that if he had keyed the mic, it would have been a complete non-event, enforcement-wise.
 
Velocity173 said:
I agree but in order for ATC to provide emergency service, it does help to declare. I didn’t get anywhere in the story where he let ATC know he was in the clouds either. If he didn’t, then in that entire evolution, the controller would be treating lit like any other IFR pickup, which by the sounds of it, it wasn’t.
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I don't recall specifically if I told them I was IMC but I told them I was going to be and that time frame passed so the assumption is they knew I was in the clouds, if I didn't specifically say I am already I am IMC. But basically when I got my can you maintain your own terrain avoidance I climbed.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess that's sort of true but in almost 30 years only came across a few situation in which it would do anything of substance - a true one-in-one out towered airport where approaches and departures would conflict. Other than that, even at a nonradar (if you happen to know) tower, isn't Approach sequencing and coordinating? If the weather is visual, aren't the separation requirements less? And if it's IFR, the tower will cancel when you land so there's still a substantial time savings over nontowered unless you are able to reach approach on the radio from the ground.
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A student and I sat in a hold for 30 minutes at SWEDD in VMC while approach shuttled three different "important" commuters one after the other into KHLN. When the fourth one checked in on the freq I cancelled IFR, descended 500', and went in VFR with the student still under the hood.
 
smv said:
A student and I sat in a hold for 30 minutes at SWEDD in VMC while approach shuttled three different "important" commuters one after the other into KHLN. When the fourth one checked in on the freq I cancelled IFR, descended 500', and went in VFR with the student still under the hood.
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All the flights for the day arrived at the same time? :D
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, in the aircraft at the run up area in an RCO or Phone, 2-3 minutes is definitely doable. I was thinking the OP was probably sitting in the aircraft prior to start.

My answer was a bit dated as well in that I did ATC before the proliferation of cell phones. Old school by calling ATC on an FBO phone, 10 minute void is suitable.
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We used to give 2 minute ‘windows’ before the invention of the cell phone. Time check [time] released at [time] void at [time]. May have even done a one minute one once.
 
The oddest, though perhaps most well run, void time clearance was the one i got to get out of VKX (an airport less than 7 miles from the US Capitol) after 9/11. Dave Wartofsky (airport manager) called up and got us a bunch of IFR departure clearances and then sequenced us out to the runway based on our release and voide times.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I don't know which it was, but on the part I bolded, why? I've gotten less than that. If you felt you needed more then say so. And if the need for more comes up unexpectedly, call and ask for it. This is a 2-way conversation.

on the cancellation, I don't know if that's what prompted the comment, but understand that every minute you don't cancel is a minute someone else can neither take off IFR or be cleared for an approach into a nontowered airport.
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I get a lot of "short window" void times. That's why I'm usually run-up and at the hold-short line when I make the call to ATC (no tower or GCO, so I use my cell phone).
 
SbestCFII said:
I get a lot of "short window" void times. That's why I'm usually run-up and at the hold-short line when I make the call to ATC (no tower or GCO, so I use my cell phone).
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You and me both. Well, not at the hold short line unless there's room for someone else to get by but close enough and ready to go.
 
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