cancellation policy

What's the wrap rate on the $500 vs the wrap rate on the $75? Can't make an assessment of profitability and therefore cash value without that. Need that to determine who's worth more to society....
 
JoseCuervo said:
Making $500 an hour means you're pretty much seven times more valuable than the person making $75 an hour.

That is why we have markets that set prices, to place value on services delivered.

The guy who makes $500 an hour is much more valuable than the guy that makes $75 an hour.

And if the FBO thinks they're going to charge a cancellation fee, they should be willing to pay a reverse cancellation fee when they waste the attorneys time.


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"More valuable"? In some cosmic sense? That seems a bit strong.

You'd probably be better off regarding yourself as somebody who merely had the right mixture of luck, hard work, and opportunity to "earn more" than most. :yesnod:
 
LoneAspen said:
Agreed. Last year, I had insomnia some nights. I either couldn't fall asleep or would wake myself up.

Went to a sleep doctor and it ended up being OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea), and now doing fantastic on CPAP therapy and sleep SO MUCH better.
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Interesting......

How did you get a 3rd class medical ???:dunno::dunno::confused:
 
JoseCuervo said:
Making $500 an hour means you're pretty much seven times more valuable than the person making $75 an hour.

That is why we have markets that set prices, to place value on services delivered.

The guy who makes $500 an hour is much more valuable than the guy that makes $75 an hour.

And if the FBO thinks they're going to charge a cancellation fee, they should be willing to pay a reverse cancellation fee when they waste the attorneys time.


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If either booked time away from the office they were planning on making $0/hr during that time.

I could care less what either THINKS they're worth. Show damages.

There aren't any. No worse than than the same hassle of rescheduling when an unforecast storm blows in. Yawn.

The rest is just ego.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
"More valuable"? In some cosmic sense? That seems a bit strong.



You'd probably be better off regarding yourself as somebody who merely had the right mixture of luck, hard work, and opportunity to "earn more" than most. :yesnod:
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More valuable in an economic sense.

That is why some people get paid more than others, they are more valuable.

And, if I contract to rent a plane on next Tuesday, the FBO has a duty to make a plane available to me, or compensate me for damages, depending on what I can prove.

Could be cost at another FBO, could be time and travel, etc....
 
denverpilot said:
If either booked time away from the office they were planning on making $0/hr during that time.

I could care less what either THINKS they're worth. Show damages.

There aren't any. No worse than than the same hassle of rescheduling when an unforecast storm blows in. Yawn.

The rest is just ego.
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Do you agree that the FBO in the OP has 25-30$ damages, but the $500 an hour attorney has no damages if the FBO fails to deliver?

Interesting.

And naive.
 
JoseCuervo said:
More valuable in an economic sense.

That is why some people get paid more than others, they are more valuable.

And, if I contract to rent a plane on next Tuesday, the FBO has a duty to make a plane available to me, or compensate me for damages, depending on what I can prove.

Could be cost at another FBO, could be time and travel, etc....
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Yeah. If the plane isn't available when promised, and you're a powerful lawyer and all that, then I supposed you could go down this road :dunno: :

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/12/lawyer-with-3-harvard-degrees-loses-his-mind-over-4-chinese-food-overcharge/
 
N801BH said:
Interesting......

How did you get a 3rd class medical ???:dunno::dunno::confused:
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It's an easy SI to get, especially under the new proposed rules. Basically show you are being treated and it's automatic, they even include issuance of a non SI medical in the mean time.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Do you agree that the FBO in the OP has 25-30$ damages, but the $500 an hour attorney has no damages if the FBO fails to deliver?

Interesting.

And naive.
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Just reality. Claiming you "could have made" $500 an hour during your free time when you definitely weren't planning on working is always BS.

People use that bad analogy to justify tons of stuff. It doesn't fly in Court. Doesn't fly with me either.

As far as the FBO goes, they don't have to prove damages. Cancellation fees are part of a *contractual* relationship. You want to use their aircraft you sign the contract.

Or... If you think you're so important you're above it, you can find someone to contract with who'll keep an airplane available at your beck and call or just buy one.

Nobody needs to coddle the dumb $500 an hour guy who picked the wrong way to accomplish what he/she wanted. Want 100% availability? Find someone who'll put that in a contract. They're out there.
 
denverpilot said:
Just reality. Claiming you "could have made" $500 an hour during your free time when you definitely weren't planning on working is always BS.

People use that bad analogy to justify tons of stuff. It doesn't fly in Court. Doesn't fly with me either.

As far as the FBO goes, they don't have to prove damages. Cancellation fees are part of a *contractual* relationship. You want to use their aircraft you sign the contract.

Or... If you think you're so important you're above it, you can find someone to contract with who'll keep an airplane available at your beck and call or just buy one.

Nobody needs to coddle the dumb $500 an hour guy who picked the wrong way to accomplish what he/she wanted. Want 100% availability? Find someone who'll put that in a contract. They're out there.
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You believe the contract between the FBO and the brilliant, $$500 an hour attorney only requires performance from one part?

Interesting


And naive.
 
^^^ a local FBO used to rent the local airplane for the broadcast traffic reporters. It came with additional contractual obligations of other members who wanted to fly it regarding times of day and breakage. The reason? They got paid better by the traffic reporting company and they had a contract to have one or the other airplane always available during the weekday reporting time and a penalty for using the backup aircraft because they had to use their backup portable broadcast gear. The primary bird had the gear installed.
 
JoseCuervo said:
You believe the contract between the FBO and the brilliant, $$500 an hour attorney only requires performance from one part?

Interesting


And naive.
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Feel free to stop with the personal insults and have an adult discussion anytime.

IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTRACT FOR THE RENTAL.

Read. And comprehend. Read it again if you need to.

Most FBOs have you sign that they're not responsible for a laundry list of things including late aircraft returns. Nobody rents from an FBO without a rental contract.

The egotistical hypothetical lawyer can ask for a different contract if he wants to cough up the cash to GUARANTEE himself a rental under whatever terms he likes.

The FBO chooses to play or not to play and the price tag.

He's got the funds to do it, and he knows if he will really lose $500 an hour if he has to reschedule like the paupers often do.

Stuff breaks. People bring back things late. Weather happens and strands people. Ignoring all those things is truly naive.

This is the normal rental business. The rental contract drives the answer to your question. Not my opinion or any naiveté. What did the lawyer sign? (And if anyone knows about not signing something they didn't like, the lawyer will be held harder to that in court before a judge than anyone if he's stupid enough to try to claim damages in income for his free time.)
 
JoseCuervo said:
Do you believe the FBO has any obligation in the OP's scenario, or is the obligation solely on the student pilots shoulders?
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Who knows. I do believe that in a typical situation, the rational solution to an occasional scheduling issue would be to reschedule, use a different plane, etc. and, to a recurring issue, to simply take your rental business elsewhere.
 
denverpilot said:
Feel free to stop with the personal insults and have an adult discussion anytime.

IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTRACT FOR THE RENTAL.

Read. And comprehend. Read it again if you need to.

Most FBOs have you sign that they're not responsible for a laundry list of things including late aircraft returns. Nobody rents from an FBO without a rental contract.

The egotistical hypothetical lawyer can ask for a different contract if he wants to cough up the cash to GUARANTEE himself a rental under whatever terms he likes.

The FBO chooses to play or not to play and the price tag.

He's got the funds to do it, and he knows if he will really lose $500 an hour if he has to reschedule like the paupers often do.

Stuff breaks. People bring back things late. Weather happens and strands people. Ignoring all those things is truly naive.

This is the normal rental business. The rental contract drives the answer to your question. Not my opinion or any naiveté. What did the lawyer sign? (And if anyone knows about not signing something they didn't like, the lawyer will be held harder to that in court before a judge than anyone if he's stupid enough to try to claim damages in income for his free time.)
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Before you whine about "personal insults", you might go up above and read your own comments.


Again, in what world are contracts one direction?

If FBO wants to enforce unilateral terms to the contract, changes announced at midnight via junk Mail, then they should also allow other parties to enforce whatever terms they want.

There is no purpose in having contracts if the terms are only beneficial to one party. In fact, those are not enforceable.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Who knows. I do believe that in a typical situation, the rational solution to an occasional scheduling issue would be to reschedule, use a different plane, etc. and, to a recurring issue, to simply take your rental business elsewhere.
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Agreed, but in this scenario of the OP, one party is unilaterally, and perhaps, enforcing the changes to the contract as they wish.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Before you whine about "personal insults", you might go up above and read your own comments.


Again, in what world are contracts one direction?

If FBO wants to enforce unilateral terms to the contract, changes announced at midnight via junk Mail, then they should also allow other parties to enforce whatever terms they want.

There is no purpose in having contracts if the terms are only beneficial to one party. In fact, those are not enforceable.
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I haven't insulted you. Unless you are the egotistical lawyer who thinks he makes money on his day off. Then perhaps.

Contracts are one sided if they're written that way and you sign them. Duh.

Never seen a rental contract with a penalty in it for failure to perform on the part of the FBO nor without specific clauses against that being anything the customer can expect.

I didn't claim I like it. I haven't made a single claim of whether that's "right" nor do I care what your *opinion* of a good or bad contract are.

I said ... Let me repeat... the answer to who is required to perform what is clearly outlined in the rental contract. That's it. Nothing more. Stop reading any assumption of value judgement into it.

In the original scenario no one asked who's the parties SIGNED. Or in any of the hypotheticals including your big-headed rich lawyer.

And I suspect they signed their right to any compensation for late or missing airplanes away. That's typical in the rental biz.

And I offered a solution. Don't like it. Don't sign. Negotiate better. Or buy a plane.

Lots of us here's have and we don't make $500/hr. The only value judgement I've made is that your hypothetical big-headed lawyer isn't as smart as most of us who figured out if we don't have to rent, we won't. We pull out the hangar keys and the airplane keys and we go flying and we know the airplane is there. We also know that's not how renting works.

It's not rocket science.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Agreed, but in this scenario of the OP, one party is unilaterally, and perhaps, enforcing the changes to the contract as they wish.
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Perhaps. Did you read the contract?

Most say, "Terms of this rental agreement may be changed at any time."

Some say, "With 30 days notice..."

Some say, "In writing."

Know what you're signing.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
They shouldn't charge due to weather or the pilot declaring they are not fit to fly. But just no-shows, sure that's just good business practice to crack down on idiots that abuse the booking system.
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so you have to bring a doctors note? Otherwise, everyone is just 'sick' . . .

Where do you draw the line?
 
denverpilot said:
If either booked time away from the office they were planning on making $0/hr during that time.
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Not always true. The $500 hr rate would more than likely be the firms rate and not based specifically on the individual attorney's time. So if his admins or underlings (Which he is better than btw) are doing work for a particular case then the Hobbs is running. I've actually seen some attorneys get in trouble for billing multiple clients for the same time. For example he goes to the court house to do some filings and it takes him 30 mins but he files 20 actions... then he charges that 30 minutes to each client. Shady I tell you....
 
I think the FBO has a pretty good idea who the abusers are. The ones that reserve plane(s) for multiple slots a week or so in advance, then cancel all but the one they finally decide fits their schedule best are easy to spot: they are the ones that other renters complain to the FBO about. Other renters that schedule in prime rental times, or schedule for an hour right in the middle of a 3 hr window so two other people have to change plans for their 1+ hr lesson, and then cancel also generate complaints.
 
cirrusmx said:
i just say it should be fair on both sides. what if you show up and the airplane craps out during the run up? Will you charge an inconvenience fee to the FBO? They will probably want to squeeze out of you the .2 hobbs. It has happened to me and it was pathetic I never rented from them again. On the other hand cancelling at last minute due to an emergency, sickness, not fit for flight, etc shouldn't merit a fee. However if it becomes a pattern from a particular individual maybe the FBO would want to stop doing business with that individual. Courtesy and consideration should go both ways.
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That's pretty bad. If a plane comes back from the run up due to a mechanical reason we never charge the student/renter for whatever time was on the hobbs. I can see why you don't rent from them anymore.
 
N801BH said:
Interesting......

How did you get a 3rd class medical ???:dunno::dunno::confused:
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I haven't started down the path yet, I'm still in "lurking" mode. But when I do decide to get the 3rd class medical, and start training, everything I've read says it'll be a little bit of a hassle, but not much.

As long as the CPAP therapy is working (and it is, I sleep great now) and sleep doc says I'm good, I should be fine.
 
ever wonder why people think lawyers are ass holes? Read this thread.
 
I would [not] patronize such an FBO. Maybe my standards are just low, but i expect aviation to be a lot more laid back than all this. Like the other ******* lawyer, if an FBO was going to change me a cancellation fee or "no show" fee, I'd expect them to pay me when the plane isn't back, fueled, and ready to go when I'm supposed to have it. No one could possibly argue that it'd be fair to have it any other way.

Apparently I am fortunate to rent at a place where folks are genuinely nice and treat each other like grown adults. I'm sure if I no showed without any communication, all I would get is a text asking if I am OK. If someone did it more than once without explanation, I can see that person getting talked to, or being fired as a customer.

It just so happens, that twice, I have showed up at the airport, ready to go on an overnight cross-country, only to find that the plane was down for MX. Both times the MX issues were discovered when the plane was being made ready for my trip. Both times I thanked the mechanic for giving the plane such a thorough inspection, and I executed my backup plan. I'm sure if I rented at a place that treated me like an adversary and treated the transaction like a haircut. I'd sure be steamed at a place that charged me cancellation fees and wasn't 100% ready and 100% on task at all times.
 
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Lindberg said:
I would patronize such an FBO. Maybe my standards are just low, but i expect aviation to be a lot more laid back than all this. Like the other ******* lawyer, if an FBO was going to change me a cancellation fee or "no show" fee, I'd expect them to pay me when the plane isn't back, fueled, and ready to go when I'm supposed to have it. No one could possibly argue that it'd be fair to have it any other way.

Apparently I am fortunate to rent at a place where folks are genuinely nice and treat each other like grown adults. I'm sure if I no showed without any communication, all I would get is a text asking if I am OK. If someone did it more than once without explanation, I can see that person getting talked to, or being fired as a customer.

It just so happens, that twice, I have showed up at the airport, ready to go on an overnight cross-country, only to find that the plane was down for MX. Both times the MX issues were discovered when the plane was being made ready for my trip. Both times I thanked the mechanic for giving the plane such a thorough inspection, and I executed my backup plan. I'm sure if I rented at a place that treated me like an adversary and treated the transaction like a haircut. I'd sure be steamed at a place that charged me cancellation fees and wasn't 100% ready and 100% on task at all times.
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Put yourself in the flight schools position.mIf you have guys tying up the shcedule that flake out what would you do? Would you send them a text everytime asking if they are ok? Is it fair to your CFI? Is it fair to other renters?Or would you implement a plan that would help mitigate the no showers by having a no show fee. It's not about being nice or being a grown adult, it's about common courtesy.
 
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comanchepilot said:
so you have to bring a doctors note? Otherwise, everyone is just 'sick' . . .

Where do you draw the line?
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You draw the line with the people that have an obvious pattern. You charge them hoping they won't come back. Some schools won't let students have on line scheduling access because they are sometimes the worst abusers.
 
Getting back to the original topic - How much of that cancelation fee goes to the instructor, if the time booked was for instruction? How is he/she compensated for driving to the airport, preparing for the lesson and ending up without a student? In my experience, the instructor never sees a dime of it.
 
upstateny said:
Getting back to the original topic - How much of that cancelation fee goes to the instructor, if the time booked was for instruction? How is he/she compensated for driving to the airport, preparing for the lesson and ending up without a student? In my experience, the instructor never sees a dime of it.
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I don't think the CFI gets anything.
 
jordane93 said:
Put yourself in the flight schools position.mIf you have guys tying up the shcedule that flake out what would you do? Would you send them a text everytime asking if they are ok?
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I would the first time. The second time, if there wasn't a good reason, I'd stop letting them reserve the plane when someone else might want it.
Is it fair to your CFI? Is it fair to other renters?
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Life is not fair. And FBOs are not around to dispense justice, they're in business.
Or would you implement a plan that would help mitigate the no showers by having a no show fee. It's not about being nice or being a grown adult, it's about common courtesy.
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No, it's about business. The jerks who deliberately book the plane when they don't plan to fly are either going to find a way around the no show fee, or they're going to ply their trade somewhere else. Only the good natured folks who have no other options will actually get stuck paying the fees.

So here's an example. Today was a 13kt x-wind. Very flyable, but maybe marginal for a tailwheel student.

1) f the student calls to cancel because he isn't comfortable with the conditions, but the CFI says let's go, what do you do?

2) What if the student is secretly happy that he has a weather out because he really wants to see a movie with his new girlfriend?

3) What if the student cancels based on a bad forecast that turns out to be wrong?

4) What if the CFI cancels based on a bad forecast that turns out to be wrong?

I live 45 minutes from the airport. More than once I've called on a marginal day to get a local read on conditions (AWOS lies) and been told it was OK, only to get down to the airport to find that things had rapidly deteriorated and it was totally unflyable. I guess to be fair, I should have been compensated for my wasted time. :dunno: I just can't see how any of this makes any positive contribution to what's supposed to be a fun hobby.
 
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Lindberg said:
Life is not fair. And FBOs are not around to dispense justice, they're in business.
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The FBO can dispense justice by implementing at no show fee and have the right to refuse service


No, it's about business. The jerks who deliberately book the plane when they don't plan to fly are either going to find a way around the no show fee, or they're going to ply their trade somewhere else. Only the good natured folks who have no other options will actually get stuck paying the fees.
The good natured folks won't care if there is a no show fee because they do the right thing:dunno:


So here's an example. Today was a 13kt x-wind. Very flyable, but maybe marginal for a tailwheel student.

1) f the student calls to cancel because he isn't comfortable with the conditions, but the CFI says let's go, what do you do?

Have a chat with the CFI saying I'm not comfortable

2) What if the student is secretly happy that he has a weather out because he really wants to see a movie with his new girlfriend?

Why does that matter? Either way the flight is canceled regardless of what the student had planned later on in the day.

3) What if the student cancels based on a bad forecast that turns out to be wrong?

That's out of your control

4) What if the CFI cancels based on a bad forecast that turns out to be wrong?

That's out of his control

I live 45 minutes from the airport. More than once I've called on a marginal day to get a local read on conditions (AWOS lies) and been told it was OK, only to get down to the airport to find that things had rapidly deteriorated and it was totally unflyable. I guess to be fair, I should have been compensated for my wasted time. :dunno: I just can't see how any of this makes any positive contribution to what's supposed to be a fun hobby.[/QUOTE]
Weather changes. As a pilot you should know to be flexible. Getting a weather forecast is not 100%. That's not the FBO/school/CFIs fault. I would love if I could control the weather. You don't always have to go home if the weather is crappy. Do some ground. Do some sim work if the school has one. Study for the written, oral, etc. It certainly is a fun hobby but like any other activity, there has to be rules and regulations. If I book a plane and a CFI for a week straight and not come out to any of the flights that is not cool. The no show fee isn't about sucking the fun out aviation it's about weeding out the sucky people.
 
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