cancellation policy

[kwc98]

I got this from my flight school:

Up to now, we not been enforcing our cancellation policy. From this point forward, there is a $25 cancellation fee if a renter/student cancels with less than 24 hours’ notice or if they "No-Show" for a lesson. This does not apply to weather or mechanical related cancellations that are mutually discussed or decided by the CFI.

I tend to suffer from insomnia and some mornings I can function, but not at a very high level. Waking up at 1:00am will do that to you.

Do you think that this policy promotes un-safe flying practices?

-Ken

 

[JeffDG]

No, it promotes sound business practices.

The flight school has an opportunity cost for the booking. They set the aircraft and instructor aside for your exclusive use for a time period when you book, and when you no-show, they could have passed up other opportunities to utilize that time.

 

[Alexb2000]

I got this from my flight school:

Up to now, we not been enforcing our cancellation policy. From this point forward, there is a $25 cancellation fee if a renter/student cancels with less than 24 hours’ notice or if they "No-Show" for a lesson. This does not apply to weather or mechanical related cancellations that are mutually discussed or decided by the CFI.

I tend to suffer from insomnia and some mornings I can function, but not at a very high level. Waking up at 1:00am will do that to you.

Do you think that this policy promotes un-safe flying practices?

-Ken

Worrying about money can lead to disaster when we're talking about flying IMO. Saving a few bucks by pushing your fuel to a cheaper stop is the same gotcha as flying when you don't feel up to snuff because of a $25 cancellation fee. Besides most of the time a school is reasonable depending on the circumstances.

 

[Matthew]

One of my FBOs put in a clause like that. They had to put it in because of some pilots abusing the system They didn't apply it to any wx or IMSAFE cancellations.

 

[bullwinkle]

Not at all. You don't want a student booking huge blocks all week long, just in case he decides to actually fly once during the week. You have to protect your business and your customers from each other.

Weather and MX cancellations should be at the sole discretion of the CFI, but once a student solos you could shift that to the student with CFI review to get them used to making go/no go decisions.

 

[jordane93]

No, it promotes sound business practices.

The flight school has an opportunity cost for the booking. They set the aircraft and instructor aside for your exclusive use for a time period when you book, and when you no-show, they could have passed up other opportunities to utilize that time.

This. The flight school I train at has a $50 dollar cancellation fee plus half the time you booked for

 

[Pghsteel]

No, it promotes sound business practices.

The flight school has an opportunity cost for the booking. They set the aircraft and instructor aside for your exclusive use for a time period when you book, and when you no-show, they could have passed up other opportunities to utilize that time.

Winner!!!!

Carry on nothing more to see here

 

[rocketflyer84]

They shouldn't charge due to weather or the pilot declaring they are not fit to fly. But just no-shows, sure that's just good business practice to crack down on idiots that abuse the booking system.

 

[JOhnH]

Cancellation fees help you as well as the school. Have you ever tried to schedule a flight but there was nothing available when you needed it, but then the student that was scheduled no-showed and the plane just sat there while the school lost the revenue, which made them raise their rates for everyone to compensate.

 

[JGoodish]

It's worth noting that bookings (reservations) are a two-way street. I have a just expectation that the merchant will provide what I booked (a substitution MAY NOT be acceptable), and the merchant has a just expectation that I will use the booking.

The only reason that cancellation policies are becoming more common and restrictive, or the reservation privilege is being eliminated altogether (restaurants), is because the consumer's attitude has changed over the years. Many consumers no longer view an intentional "no-show" as the giant compromise of personal integrity that it is, so merchants understandably must act to protect their businesses.

The flip side is that if I book a specific instructor and type of aircraft, I expect both of those to be available when I show up. If the flight school needs to substitute, I expect advanced notification, or to be released from my booking obligation if the flight school is unable to provide what was booked. Substitutions may or may not be acceptable, but as the guy handing over the money, that is my decision to make.


JKG

 

[Clip4]

I got this from my flight school:

Up to now, we not been enforcing our cancellation policy. From this point forward, there is a $25 cancellation fee if a renter/student cancels with less than 24 hours’ notice or if they "No-Show" for a lesson. This does not apply to weather or mechanical related cancellations that are mutually discussed or decided by the CFI.

I tend to suffer from insomnia and some mornings I can function, but not at a very high level. Waking up at 1:00am will do that to you.

Do you think that this policy promotes un-safe flying practices?

-Ken

Insomnia causes fatigue, which is well documented as a factor in aircraft accidents. You need to resolve your insomnia.

 

[NickC99]

I imagine flight schools already have slim profit margins, and even if they don't, they need to keep liquid assets to protect their business during down time. I'm definitely in favor of a cancellation policy if there are problems with scheduling. It's good for us and it's good for the school. A plane reserved but not used is money lost by the school. If you like your school/FBO, do your part to help them stay in business.

Also, repeated no shows limit availability for other pilots. If pilots find planes are hard to schedule due to no-shows or over-booking, then business has to go elsewhere.

 

[James331]

No, it promotes sound business practices.

The flight school has an opportunity cost for the booking. They set the aircraft and instructor aside for your exclusive use for a time period when you book, and when you no-show, they could have passed up other opportunities to utilize that time.

What he said.

School said they won't change for wx or mx cancellations, so there ya go.

A mear 25 bucks is nothing, I'd expect a much higher fee considering all the resources tied up.

Not fit to fly, yeah I'd still charge for that, you stay up till 1am, or go out drinking, or book a flight as you're just getting over a cold, that's stuff in your control and stuff you should be able to schedule around as an adult.

 

[JoseCuervo]

The other side of the coin is when you clear out your busy schedule as a $500 an hour attorney to go take a lesson, get to the airport and the 172 is down for maintenance or not back from the cross country of the previous student.

 

[TommyG]

places I have worked at have charged the fee on an individual basis. If pilot A books every Saturday and Sunday and decided to cancel whenever they don't feel like flying, whether it be sick, or plans, whatever reason. He would get charged. If pilot B books every Saturday and Sunday and has in the past few months has cancelled once or twice for any whatever reason wouldn't get charged. It is expected that things do come up that cause cancellations, but it's when its excessive, it's just selfish.

 

[HouTxPilot82]

My flight school has a cancellation policy. It never became an issue.

 

[frfly172]

Before I owned,I used an FBO ,that had a cancellation policy, was never a problem. If you no show ,you only hurt the pilots who follow the rules. In the end ,it could also affect the abusers.

 

[danhagan]

The other side of the coin is when you clear out your busy schedule as a $500 an hour attorney to go take a lesson, get to the airport and the 172 is down for maintenance or not back from the cross country of the previous student.

If true, why the %$#& are you renting? You should buy a low end plane to train in if your time is that valuable.

 

[JeffDG]

The other side of the coin is when you clear out your busy schedule as a $500 an hour attorney to go take a lesson, get to the airport and the 172 is down for maintenance or not back from the cross country of the previous student.

Like you weren't still billing the $500 regardless of being at the airport!

 

[OkieAviator]

The other side of the coin is when you clear out your busy schedule as a $500 an hour attorney to go take a lesson, get to the airport and the 172 is down for maintenance or not back from the cross country of the previous student.

I know you were being a bit sarcastic with your bill rate amount but from a consumer end they do what I did... they switch FBOs, or state their expectations before hand. It doesn't take too many times for someone who values their schedule to switch to another FBO, CFI, ect.

 

[jesse]

I don't do it but really should. It's amazing the number of people that book a 7am flight with me and then send a text message at about 6:45am saying they can't make it. Little do they realize I've structered the entire day before around doing the flight with them.

 

[JoseCuervo]

If true, why the %$#& are you renting? You should buy a low end plane to train in if your time is that valuable.

You really think I have time to go schlepping around looking at old "low end planes" instead of billing $500 an hour for the 2400 hours per year? I need, and DEMAND people provide what I need, as agreed just as the FBO expects me to show up.

Like you weren't still billing the $500 regardless of being at the airport!

Would I need a Commercial Student License to bill while taking my lessons? As, I am getting paid to fly..... Maybe I should start a thread: "Another, Do I need a Commercial License Thread"?

But yes, you ain't gonna bill 2400 hours a year if you ain't thinking about your clients all day....

I know you were being a bit sarcastic with your bill rate amount but from a consumer end they do what I did... they switch FBOs, or state their expectations before hand. It doesn't take too many times for someone who values their schedule to switch to another FBO, CFI, ect.

Yes.

And that is likely why some people are happy renting $200 an hour planes for training, they are paying for the higher level of service, nicer FBO, better coffee, and rich Corinthian leather chairs in the instructor's office.

 

[Clip4]

You really think I have time to go schlepping around looking at old "low end planes" instead of billing $500 an hour for the 2400 hours per year? I need, and DEMAND people provide what I need, as agreed just as the FBO expects me to show up.




Would I need a Commercial Student License to bill while taking my lessons? As, I am getting paid to fly..... Maybe I should start a thread: "Another, Do I need a Commercial License Thread"?

But yes, you ain't gonna bill 2400 hours a year if you ain't thinking about your clients all day....





Yes.

And that is likely why some people are happy renting $200 an hour planes for training, they are paying for the higher level of service, nicer FBO, better coffee, and rich Corinthian leather chairs in the instructor's office.

You would think a top notch attorney such as yourself would know about aircraft brokers.

 

[JoseCuervo]

You would think a top notch attorney such as yourself would know about aircraft brokers.

That's not my area of expertise....

 

[Clip4]

That's not my area of expertise....

Now we know what your 2400 hous a year is spent doung, chasing ambulances.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Now we know what your 2400 hous a year is spent doung, chasing ambulances.

As a side note, have you watched the first episodes of Better Call Saul?

good stuff from the creators of Breaking Bad.

 

[RyanB]

Fortunately the FBO i rent from does not enforce any policies like this, but I could see it happening, however another local Flight School does something similar to this. They probably are wanting to know what reservations are taking place at what time so CFIs don't drive to the airport and then get cancelled on, and reserved aircrafts do not get cancelled when it could have had use with another pilot.

 

[jordane93]

Fortunately the FBO i rent from does not enforce any policies like this, but I could see it happening, however another local Flight School does something similar to this. They probably are wanting to know what reservations are taking place at what time so CFIs don't drive to the airport and then get cancelled on, and reserved aircrafts do not get cancelled when it could have had use with another pilot.

Yep. If schools don't enforce rules like these then it becomes a free-for-all.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I got this from my flight school:

Up to now, we not been enforcing our cancellation policy. From this point forward, there is a $25 cancellation fee if a renter/student cancels with less than 24 hours’ notice or if they "No-Show" for a lesson. This does not apply to weather or mechanical related cancellations that are mutually discussed or decided by the CFI.

I tend to suffer from insomnia and some mornings I can function, but not at a very high level. Waking up at 1:00am will do that to you.

Do you think that this policy promotes un-safe flying practices?

-Ken

No. They are taking a reasonable step to protect their business interests.

There are lots of ways for you to resolve your insomnia with their cancelation policy without compromising safety. Do you have a pattern of last minute cancelation because of your insomnia?

 

[StinkBug]

It's not the fbos fault you have a condition that makes you unsafe to fly and it shouldn't be their problem either. You need to be responsible for yourself and not book times where your insomnia could cause you to cancel. Either that or you need to cure your insomnia. They have a business to run and you canceling costs them money. Either get used to paying the fee or figure out how to not cancel.

 

[cirrusmx]

i just say it should be fair on both sides. what if you show up and the airplane craps out during the run up? Will you charge an inconvenience fee to the FBO? They will probably want to squeeze out of you the .2 hobbs. It has happened to me and it was pathetic I never rented from them again. On the other hand cancelling at last minute due to an emergency, sickness, not fit for flight, etc shouldn't merit a fee. However if it becomes a pattern from a particular individual maybe the FBO would want to stop doing business with that individual. Courtesy and consideration should go both ways.

 

[denverpilot]

The other side of the coin is when you clear out your busy schedule as a $500 an hour attorney to go take a lesson, get to the airport and the 172 is down for maintenance or not back from the cross country of the previous student.

This is true whether one is a $500 / hr attorney or a $5 / waiter. Probably even more true of the waiter actually.

The idea that the $500 / hr attorney is any more important is silly. Conceited even. Yawn.

 

[rocketflyer84]

i just say it should be fair on both sides. what if you show up and the airplane craps out during the run up? Will you charge an inconvenience fee to the FBO? They will probably want to squeeze out of you the .2 hobbs. It has happened to me and it was pathetic I never rented from them again. On the other hand cancelling at last minute due to an emergency, sickness, not fit for flight, etc shouldn't merit a fee. However if it becomes a pattern from a particular individual maybe the FBO would want to stop doing business with that individual. Courtesy and consideration should go both ways.

Indeed there are sometimes shenanigans like this, although most of these businesses are too dumb to realize that they may have squeezed you for $30 that day but lost $10k in future revenue over the next few years from you. With business sense like that these shops thankfully often don't last long.

 

[Matthew]

Indeed there are sometimes shenanigans like this, although most of these businesses are too dumb to realize that they may have squeezed you for $30 that day but lost $10k in future revenue over the next few years from you. With business sense like that these shops thankfully often don't last long.

I don't know if it gets that far as going out of business. One of my FBOs (and maybe others) has a cancellation fee, but they use a lot of discretion in applying it and save it only for the habitual cancellers. Losing a customer like that might not hurt at all - they tie up an airplane that could be used by somebody else anyway.

 

[TMetzinger]

Cancellation fees are a normal business practice at every FBO in the Metro DC area. In general, a renter can cancel for convenience with 24+ hours notice. A renter can cancel for health or weather reasons without any penalty.

Now, if a renter takes inappropriate advantage (cancelling for health constantly), that renter may be told to take his business elsewhere.

I haven't seen much heartburn with this. I also haven't seen much in the way of no-shows either.

 

[Matthew]

Pilots are funny creatures. As expensive as aviation is, deep down we really are cheap bastages. The threat of a $20-$30 fine carries a lot of weight!

 

[Henning]

Worrying about money can lead to disaster when we're talking about flying IMO. Saving a few bucks by pushing your fuel to a cheaper stop is the same gotcha as flying when you don't feel up to snuff because of a $25 cancellation fee. Besides most of the time a school is reasonable depending on the circumstances.

If you make stupid cheap decisions you will die regardless if some one else is prompting one or not. Like the policy says, weather, mechanical... they are excepted. This is about people not bothering to show up or call and leaving a plane on the ramp that could be earning revenue as it is reserved for you.

This is normal policy at every FBO/Flight school I have contracted with.

 

[LoneAspen]

Insomnia causes fatigue, which is well documented as a factor in aircraft accidents. You need to resolve your insomnia.

Agreed. Last year, I had insomnia some nights. I either couldn't fall asleep or would wake myself up.

Went to a sleep doctor and it ended up being OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea), and now doing fantastic on CPAP therapy and sleep SO MUCH better.

 

[StinkBug]

This is true whether one is a $500 / hr attorney or a $5 / waiter. Probably even more true of the waiter actually.

The idea that the $500 / hr attorney is any more important is silly. Conceited even. Yawn.

Completely agree. My time is worth a lot to me. If I billed $500/hr I'd be able to spend a lot more time having fun. At $75/hr I need to be in the shop working to keep the rent paid. Making more money than others doesn't make you more important than them. Thinking that does make you an arrogant ass though.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Completely agree. My time is worth a lot to me. If I billed $500/hr I'd be able to spend a lot more time having fun. At $75/hr I need to be in the shop working to keep the rent paid. Making more money than others doesn't make you more important than them. Thinking that does make you an arrogant ass though.

Making $500 an hour means you're pretty much seven times more valuable than the person making $75 an hour.

That is why we have markets that set prices, to place value on services delivered.

The guy who makes $500 an hour is much more valuable than the guy that makes $75 an hour.

And if the FBO thinks they're going to charge a cancellation fee, they should be willing to pay a reverse cancellation fee when they waste the attorneys time.


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