Canadian Charts

iamtheari

iamtheari

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Ari
I know that it's not hard to fly across the border, and there are plenty of threads here and guides elsewhere about how to deal with the customs and immigration part of making a trip between the USA and Canada. But I am finding the charts (obtained through FltPlan.com as they appear to be the real deal--I don't know where Skyvector gets their very different-looking international VFR chart data) to be very different from the FAA product. Mostly because I don't have a chart legend or handy Chart User's Guide like we have for American charts, I find myself trying to guess at things like what classes of airspace I am looking at. I am no ADM wizard, but it seems like guessing is not a great overall strategy.

Does anyone know of a good, free source of information to help understand the symbols on the Canadian VNC and IFR en route charts? I could just buy paper charts but hate to spend money to prepare for a flight I am only dreaming about at this point.
 
Hopefully someone familiar with Canada, especially VFR requirements) will be able to provide some good training-level references. It's easier for IFR since it's pretty uniform, but Canada operates with some different rules and their alphabet airspace is not necessarily the same as ours. Best I can suggest is looking at the AIP (Aeronautical Information Publication), Canada's equivalent of our AIM. I think most of the information you need to know from a guidance standpoint (I don't know about chart legends) and the Canada Flight Supplement, kind of their AFD/Chart Supplement, Both are available at NavCanada for download.

Edit: late as usual
 
They definitely have some different rules in the great white north. Thanks for the link to the Canada Air Pilot general pages (how did you find that link? Nav Canada says the general pages are only available with purchase of another CAP product) and for the name of the AIP, which I've downloaded and saved to read later. I can't find a download link for the Canada Flight Supplement on Nav Canada's website, unfortunately. I can only find it as part of a CD subscription service or in print. IVAO (International Virtual Aviation Organization) has outdated copies of it, which include at least a partial legend.

Airspace charting is still not 100% clear, but maybe it will be after I read the AIP through. Thanks again.
 
The FAA has a fantastic online publication dedicated to charts.
I have not see anything like that for Canada, at least not online.
I generally fly IFR into/out of Canada, so for me it's a non-issue, since the link I posted above has all the general chart/plate info you need for IFR flight, always up to date. Also, FltPlan.com has all the needed Canadian IFR approach plates online for free.
 
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I agree that the FAA is fantastic about providing information, in general. Whether it's free books in the guise of advisory circulars, free charts, cheap copies of aircraft records, or anything else, they seem to want to get the information out there. Canada, not so much. I keep ending up at the conclusion that I should finish my instrument rating before attempting any cross-border trips and the inscrutable VFR charts just add to that conclusion.
 
iamtheari said:
I agree that the FAA is fantastic about providing information, in general. Whether it's free books in the guise of advisory circulars, free charts, cheap copies of aircraft records, or anything else, they seem to want to get the information out there. Canada, not so much. I keep ending up at the conclusion that I should finish my instrument rating before attempting any cross-border trips and the inscrutable VFR charts just add to that conclusion.
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That's a good conclusion, which I would even expand to say anytime you plan on flying in complex airspace (like SUAs, TFRs, borders, class B, etc.) away from home, you'd be much better off with an instrument rating and (optionally) IFR flight. Once you have it, the instrument rating is another powerful free resource at your disposal, like those online publications.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Hopefully someone familiar with Canada, especially VFR requirements) will be able to provide some good training-level references. It's easier for IFR since it's pretty uniform, but Canada operates with some different rules and their alphabet airspace is not necessarily the same as ours.
Click to expand...

The only thing different with Canadian airspace that I saw was that they have class F airspace. It's the same as the US SUA.

Flying VFR in Canada is no harder than flying VFR in the US. The only thing that takes a little getting accustomed to is having airport advisory services at nontowered airports, which doesn't really exist in the US.

iamtheari said:
They definitely have some different rules in the great white north.
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Such as?

When I reviewed the CARs a while back I didn't see anything drastically different.

iamtheari said:
I keep ending up at the conclusion that I should finish my instrument rating before attempting any cross-border trips and the inscrutable VFR charts just add to that conclusion.
Click to expand...

If you want to go, then go. Don't let being restricted to VFR operations hold you back. It's not hard to fly up there.

In a lot of ways, I actually prefer the Canadian charts to our US charts. The US charts are a lot more cluttered, probably because we have too much stuff going on down here that the FAA thinks we need to know about. Where are you wanting to go in Canada? Maybe posting a screen shot or at least telling us so we can look up the airport and airspace and help you out would be beneficial.

By the way, if you use ForeFlight you can download the Canadian chart legends, which will probably help you out.
 
I read in one of the Canadian documents that class C requires clearance to enter. Class B is common (universal?) at and above 12,500 MSL instead of only around major airports. Class G seems to exist in much greater quantities than I'm used to even here in North Dakota where we have some lingering areas where it exists up to 14,500. Those are different enough rules for me to know that guesswork isn't the solution.

The main destination I have in mind is Regina CYQR. It appears to be a class D airport surrounded by two rings of class E airspace and class G/B beyond. Not super complicated by any means. I just want to do it right if I go. And I likely won't go until I have the instrument rating anyhow, as I want to increase my chances of also coming home. :)

I will check in ForeFlight for the chart legends. I thought those would require a Canadian subscription. Thanks for the tip!
 
mondtster said:
The only thing different with Canadian airspace that I saw was that they have class F airspace. It's the same as the US SUA.
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This is very wrong and misleading, and could get anyone who relies on anonymous internet posters for their aviation knowledge (hopefully not too many) in big trouble.
There are quite a few differences, esp. as it pertains to VFR flying. This is why it is best to have an instrument rating if you plan to cross the border often.
Here is an example of a list of differences.
Note the rule about "VFR on top". Unlike US airspace, If you plan to fly over a cloud layer in Canada, you need to be either on an IFR flight plan, or get a special Canadian rating.
But there are many other differences, as you can see, and I am not sure that list is complete (e.g. I don't see the VFR night rating requirements).
 
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RotorDude said:
This is very wrong and misleading, and could get anyone who relies on anonymous internet posters for their aviation knowledge (hopefully not too many) in big trouble.
There are quite a few differences, esp. as it pertains to VFR flying. This is why it is best to have an instrument rating if you plan to cross the border often.
Here is an example of a list of differences.
Note the rule about "VFR on top". Unlike US airspace, If you plan to fly over a cloud layer in Canada, you need to be either on an IFR flight plan, or get a special Canadian rating.
But there are many other differences, as you can see, and I am not sure that list is complete.
Click to expand...

That is not really related to airspace, that is procedures. I guess I didn't think most of that stuff was that big a deal and is fairly obvious.
 
mondtster said:
That is not really related to airspace, that is procedures. I guess I didn't think most of that stuff was that big a deal and is fairly obvious.
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You think not being allowed to fly VFR over a broken cloud layer in Canadian airspace is "not a big deal and obvious"? How about not being allowed to fly VFR at night (if you don't have the night rating)?
 
RotorDude said:
You think not being allowed to fly VFR over a broken cloud layer is "not a big deal and obvious"?
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The question I responded to regarded airspace, not procedures.

I don't know why a person would want to fly VFR over the top anyway, at least not without an instrument rating.
 
mondtster said:
The question I responded to regarded airspace, not procedures.

I don't know why a person would want to fly VFR over the top anyway, at least not without an instrument rating.
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Now you are getting into rationale and psychology, not rules. In Canadian airspace you are not allowed to fly night VFR or VFR over a broken cloud layer (without extra ratings). That's certainly a rule related to "airspace".
 
RotorDude said:
Now you are getting into rationale and psychology, not rules. In Canadian airspace you are not allowed to fly night VFR or VFR over a broken cloud layer (without extra ratings). That's certainly a rule related to "airspace".
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Night VFR is another thing I make the assumption that someone knows about (which, BTW doesn't appear to be in the link you posted). We could banter back and forth about flight plans too... :)
 
mondtster said:
Night VFR is another thing I make the assumption that someone knows about (which, BTW doesn't appear to be in the link you posted). We could banter back and forth about flight plans too... :)
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I posted several links. Here is the night restriction. The point is that you should refrain from giving advice to people on a public forum unless you are very sure, or can post a link.
 
No joy with ForeFlight. Canada subscription is required to get the legends and other documents from FF.
 
If you're not flying an airplane certified for known ice, you can't file IFR in Canada if icing is forecast or reported. That covers much of the year in some parts of this country.

And don't bring a handgun or any automatic weapons. They will get you into big, big trouble.
 
mondtster said:
The question I responded to regarded airspace, not procedures.
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I think the point is, from an operational perspective - flying there, not sitting in the ground reading charts - It's pretty hard to seaparte the two. Airspace is pretty meaningless without the knowledge of what we are required or permitted to do in the airspace.

Both have airspace called "Class C" but wouldn't you agree "establish 2-way communications" and "obtain clearance to enter" make them pretty different? Especially to one with no prior knowledge or experience?
 
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Everskyward said:
Maybe the information here will help?

http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Pages/Canadian Aviation Regulations.html
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Yes, that's a pretty good list. But I see two issues with it:
1. The night flying restriction for VFR pilots is only mentioned on this separate page (which I linked above), which I don't see linked into the main info page (but please correct me if I am wrong); and
2. Ideally for a US certified pilot what you really want is a difference list, since the vast majority of the rules are essentially identical.
 
On page 230 of 460 of the Canadian AIM, there is a graphical depiction of the cross section of airspace like we are familiar with, such as from Figure 3-2-1 in the American AIM. That really helps to understand the descriptions of where class G airspace exists, which in turn helps to understand how it is charted.

Another big aid was choosing the Canadian VNC charts on fltplan.com instead of American sectionals. Both options will show both charts, but your selection determines which chart's overlap into the other country is shown. And the Canadian charts have a lot more overlap into America than vice versa. My home airport is nearly on the Canadian VNC, which means that many airports I am familiar with are depicted on it so I can see how they would chart familiar airspace. Oddly, there are some things that are a little different but that's probably just because there isn't a good way to chart our weird American airspace with Canadian symbology. E.g., class E with a floor at 700AGL is shown with the castellated lines and "700" printed inside but nothing printed outside to inform you that the floor is 1200AGL.
 
When I was up in Canada and it was back in 2000 and 2001, there was no VFR flight following and flight plans were mandatory for cross country flights anyway. Also, they had FSS on the field and some of them acted like a mini tower. IF there is a tower on the field (including FSS on the field), they close your VFR and IFR flight plans for you without asking. Other than that everything was pretty much the same although there are some technical differences and some high altitude differences, most of which I dont remember. I was all VFR.
 
They still require a filed flight plan or flight itinerary (apparently the difference is 60 minutes vs. 24 hours after you don't close it to activate SAR) for anything more than 25 nm from the departure airport.
 
iamtheari said:
They still require a filed flight plan or flight itinerary (apparently the difference is 60 minutes vs. 24 hours after you don't close it to activate SAR) for anything more than 25 nm from the departure airport.
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They also do automatic activation of VFR flight plans (which are mandatory for cross border or longer distances). They will assume you left at your proposed ETD, unless you tell them otherwise.
 
A summary of what I've found of current requirements for crossing the border and flying in Canada:

You need an annual user fee decal on the plane from US CBP
You need to notify eAPIS of crossing the border both directions, at least 1 hour before crossing it
You need to be on a filed and active flight plan both directions (VFR or IFR, and be sure to remember to open it and close yourself in the US even though it may get handled automatically in Canada)
On the way into Canada, you need to notify Canadian Border Services Agency 2-40 hours before crossing the border at 888-CAN-PASS
You need to call 888-CAN-PASS upon landing in Canada and before getting out of the plane
On the way into the US, you need to contact your destination airport customs office 1-23 hours before the ETA
You need to taxi to the customs office upon landing in the USA and wait in or next to the plane until you have been cleared
You will later get a bill in the mail from Canada for using their airspace and possibly for landing

Some interesting differences in flying beyond the paperwork of getting in and out of the country:

Automatic opening and closing of VFR flight plans when flying from/to towered airports
VFR flight plan required for all flights more than 25nm from starting point
In general, do not fly VFR at night or over the top
A lot more class G airspace, surface up to 18,000 MSL in many places other than airways
A lot more class B airspace, but not where you'd expect it: mostly above 12,500 MSL and not around major airports
Class D airports may have multiple rings of class E airspace
Clearance required to enter class C airspace; the biggest 10 airports in Canada are class C, not B
More NDB-based airways than have survived in the US
More transponder codes to use depending on circumstances, such as 1400 when VFR above a certain altitude; read more about this to make sure you set your radios right
Standardized middle-of-nowhere radio frequencies to listen and make position reports on so you don't get lonesome and/or run into any unexpected company
 
iamtheari said:
A summary of what I've found of current requirements for crossing the border and flying in Canada:

You need an annual user fee decal on the plane from US CBP
You need to notify eAPIS of crossing the border both directions, at least 1 hour before crossing it
You need to be on a filed and active flight plan both directions (VFR or IFR, and be sure to remember to open it and close yourself in the US even though it may get handled automatically in Canada)
On the way into Canada, you need to notify Canadian Border Services Agency 2-40 hours before crossing the border at 888-CAN-PASS
You need to call 888-CAN-PASS upon landing in Canada and before getting out of the plane
On the way into the US, you need to contact your destination airport customs office 1-23 hours before the ETA
You need to taxi to the customs office upon landing in the USA and wait in or next to the plane until you have been cleared
You will later get a bill in the mail from Canada for using their airspace and possibly for landing

Some interesting differences in flying beyond the paperwork of getting in and out of the country:

Automatic opening and closing of VFR flight plans when flying from/to towered airports
VFR flight plan required for all flights more than 25nm from starting point
In general, do not fly VFR at night or over the top
A lot more class G airspace, surface up to 18,000 MSL in many places other than airways
A lot more class B airspace, but not where you'd expect it: mostly above 12,500 MSL and not around major airports
Class D airports may have multiple rings of class E airspace
Clearance required to enter class C airspace; the biggest 10 airports in Canada are class C, not B
More NDB-based airways than have survived in the US
More transponder codes to use depending on circumstances, such as 1400 when VFR above a certain altitude; read more about this to make sure you set your radios right
Standardized middle-of-nowhere radio frequencies to listen and make position reports on so you don't get lonesome and/or run into any unexpected company
Click to expand...

You forgot the main one: every transmission must end with an "eh?".
 
RotorDude said:
You forgot the main one: every transmission must end with an "eh?".
Click to expand...
I'm thinking about changing my tail number first so I can have a Y and an H in it.

Bugsmasher 123 Yankee Hoser, taxi and hold short runway one-eight via Charlie, eh?
 
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